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The first and probably last blogpost i will ever make. But I just have to get this out of my system.
God damn there's alot of new trash coming to TL. I realized around april that theres no point in going to sc2 forums because its loaded with fucking retards crying and whining about everything.
But now when watching the OSL finals. Brood War OSL Finals. THERES ALOT OF DOUCHEBAGS CRYING ABOUT T>>>>Z IMBALANCE IN BW. IMBA THIS IMBA THAT. MARINES ARE IMBA THEY NEED TO NERF THE BUILD TIME!!!11
blargh... Also a cool fact, most of these people who seem blatantly retarded are registered around the time sc2 beta was released or later.
Bonus, some cool posts I just found really quick in the OSL Live Report thread.
"Ok, i must admit. terran is overall stronger race than Zerg AND stronger race than protoss as well
Go terrans!"
"One word is enough to describe this final:
Imbalance"
"1a terran time..... Sigh."
Im just saying, since when was it allright to whine like little bitches about BW imbalance, when the arguably best player in the history of StarCraft wins the OSL????!!
(Some maps might favor different races a tad though  )
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Not that there's imbalance, but maps usually tend to favor terran the most.
Not just MSL/OSL maps but in general. There are just some things that Protoss especially can't adapt to(Tears of the Moon).
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<3 noobs. Great post. Agree 100%.
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same shit would honestly happen no matter what the result is
when 6 dragons dominated people cried about maps and imbalance
when protoss couldnt beat zerg people cried about maps and imbalance
when protoss dominated pvt in 2008 people cried about maps and imbalance
it's a neverending trend that is heavily exacerbated by the influx of shitposters due to starcraft 2
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Actually the terran "imbalance" in BW is a perfect example of why complaining about SC2 "imbalance" is stupid.
Maybe some things are a little easy to take advantage of (e.g. reaper), but as SC BW has shown, different races have different periods of dominance for different reasons.
Just because T is "OP" or "imba" right now doesn't necessarily mean that it will be so forevermore, even without balance changes.
IMO we need new maps that don't play so much to T strengths (lots of cliffs to take easy advantage of, open natural expos etc).
Someone dominating BW doesn't show imbalance, and it's stupid to claim it does, but the varying periods of dominance by different races shows that balance changes over time as strategies are developed.
When you get someone like Flash, who is imbalanced, then that changes things, but that doesn't mean the game is imbalanced, just that Flash is.
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I haven't touched SC2 forums except to get news. Guess why.
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It is happening not only in Starcraft I think.
I watch starcraft, but I play a lil bit dota. So I go dota forum sometimes when I have a little bit spare time?
In the dota forum. It is all falm palm moment the moment a thread is make keke. Hmm...? There is even some people doing a signiture saying I come dota forum for facepalm moment. Or signiture saying 70% of the thread @ dota forum is facepalm.
One guy make a thread asking interesting question, then some regular people come and *facepalm* and make the one guy looked as if he just post something very very stupid.
Then there are some who put finger on the Regular poster ass. What regular comment, meaning it must be true.
Ah...never mind. What am I talking.
Ah, sad place.
That is in english dota forum though, chinese dota forum is quite funny read keke 
Ahh....here is alot better already. Because I think, other than live report thread, other thread are very nice read.
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I was kind of pissed off at posts that cry imbalance without proper support
I mean come on, at least get your facts straight
oh and of course not giving players enough credit for what they are doing
I don't think you should do that :<
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People who cry imbalance should seriously consider the following:
What is their idealized alternative?
Should all of the matchups be 50%-50% and nobody ever win more than one individual title before someone else comes along and wins the next? The greatest players of all time in every competitive discipline seem imbalanced, they are so incredible they make people want rules put in place to give everyone a chance.
It would be one thing is some good but not great player was winning 2-3 titles in a short space of time purely by being Terran, and beating Jaedong etc. along the way. Then the imbalance cries would be justified. That's not the case though. It's Flash that is imbalanced. He's in many people's opinion the best Terran of all time so of course he is going to make Terran seem imbalanced.
As far as the races go SC:BW is balanced ENOUGH. It allows the great players to still win almost any matchup against any opponent when they are at their peaks. As far as maps go those complaints should really go against the leagues who decide and implement the maps. The players should not be blamed or have their wins tarnished because people don't like the maps.
Personally I really love to watch the great players to dominate, to see the art with which they time and time again can find a way to win despite knowing there is a target on their backs and everyone is practicing overtime to find a way to beat them. I'll take the peaks of any of the bonjwas over the periods of BW where a bunch of good but not legendary players shared the titles and didn't dominate ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. I also will always want to see the #1 and #2 players playing for the title, regardless of anyone's complaints.
Flash, and Jaedong before Flash's reign, are DOMINATING in an era where everyone else struggles to even stand out from the crowd with any kind of consistency. This is the most competitive era EVER for BW and yet these two stand above everyone. IMO if you love BW that should be a beautiful thing to be appreciated. Not something to complain about.
<3 Flash <3 Jaedong <3 the bonjwas <3 SC:BW (I hope it continues on forever and we see more FvJ finals as long as they are the two best players)
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Don't worry, all the apriltards who joined TL just to enter those beta key contests dont exactly realize that this game takes a brain.
This final was Flash v Jaedong, not TvZ
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live report threads have always been a magnet for retards though, it's just blown up a lot since sc2 came along
seriously, avoid those threads and your opinion of the starcraft community will increase 10 fold
also that comment about some guy saying terran 1a is hilarious, guy probably hasn't even attempted to control an army in bw.
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Come on, there is innate TvZ imbalance. So many players have admitted it. Have you read Sea's last 5 interviews?
"I believe that against Zerg I must win"
"I beat JAedong due to the innate fraudulence of TErran"
"Its a really good strat, and I don't think theres any way for Zerg to win if Terran handles it properly"
With thousands upon thousans upon thousands upon thousands of games, if the matchup were truly balanced it would be almost dead 50/50, at the max 51% for terran, but its 53.7% all time, and this year was around 59%.
I believe in the T>Z>P>T thing, but even discarding that, this year, at the very least, you can't deny Terran was definitely ahead of Zerg in TvZ
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On September 11 2010 22:24 SubtleArt wrote:
With thousands upon thousans upon thousands upon thousands of games, if the matchup were truly balanced it would be almost dead 50/50, at the max 51% for terran, but its 53.7% all time, and this year was around 59%.
Four of the six greatest players of all time were Terran and yet Terran is ahead less than 4% so this means Terran is imbalanced? What? Why are you acting as though the players are identical computer A.I.s and would win 50% of the time in all matchups if all the races and maps were balanced?
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United States10328 Posts
On September 11 2010 22:15 XiaoJoyce- wrote:It is happening not only in Starcraft I think. I watch starcraft, but I play a lil bit dota. So I go dota forum sometimes when I have a little bit spare time? In the dota forum. It is all falm palm moment the moment a thread is make keke. Hmm...? There is even some people doing a signiture saying I come dota forum for facepalm moment. Or signiture saying 70% of the thread @ dota forum is facepalm. One guy make a thread asking interesting question, then some regular people come and *facepalm* and make the one guy looked as if he just post something very very stupid. Then there are some who put finger on the Regular poster ass. What regular comment, meaning it must be true. Ah...never mind. What am I talking. Ah, sad place. That is in english dota forum though, chinese dota forum is quite funny read keke Ahh....here is alot better already. Because I think, other than live report thread, other thread are very nice read.
hello! i missed your posts XD
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On September 11 2010 22:05 Lightwip wrote:
Not that there's imbalance, but maps usually tend to favor terran the most.
Not just MSL/OSL maps but in general. There are just some things that Protoss especially can't adapt to(Tears of the Moon).
You're EXACTLY the kind of guy OP is talking about.
Your first sentence can be rewritten into "Not that there's imbalance, but maps usually tend to be imbalanced". What's the difference between racial vs map "imbalance"?
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IMO we need new maps that don't play so much to T strengths (lots of cliffs to take easy advantage of, open natural expos etc).
This is the layman's way of looking at it IMO, and it's a pretty big oversimplification. If you notice, almost every map either slightly or majorly favors Terran in TvZ, so this is either some huge coincidence that's lasted over 10 years or theres more to it than "ah, maps favor terran, no imba here"
Part of it is the versatility Terran has in his openings, and how easy it is for Terran to scout Zerg every single step of the way, while for zerg scouting the terran base is almost impossible until mutas show up.
You can also blame mech for giving Terrans way more ways to abuse Terrain. Take destination. In the beginning, when Terrans only tended to play bio, they were like "how the fuck are we supposed to do anything on this map?". Close expansions that Zerg can mass expand on, bridges that make it near impossible to fight against lurkers and then defilers, etc etc. But then Terran players started developing mech strats, and all of a sudden all the features that favored Zerg would favor a Terran mech army.
You can also blame the bio --> mech strat for making terran a lot more versatile in exploiting Terrain. Often times things that would be ok for a bio terran opener, but then would favor zerg in the endgame, like:
- Tons and tons of expansions
- Great and chokes paths for defiler pushes
- Close by expansions
- Huge maps that could mass expand and crap out ultras on
Now favor the terran mech ball. With such a diverse way of playing TvZ, theres really very few map characteristics that Terran can't exploit by adjusting his play, and Zerg always finds itself having to react to these. .
another example, Grandline. In the lategame, this is basically zerg heaven for bio TvZ. Survive until defilers, use them to get a 4th gas, and by the time you start making ultras you can mass expand and crank them out and Terran is almosat completely helpless. With the bio --> mech switch, though, Terran's lategame on grandline became way more favored than Zergs, making it one of the most imbalanced maps in the map pool.
Also, Irradiate being 75 energy is pretty ridiculous IMO, but that can be a whole new debate.
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On September 11 2010 22:39 Demand2k wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 22:05 Lightwip wrote:
Not that there's imbalance, but maps usually tend to favor terran the most.
Not just MSL/OSL maps but in general. There are just some things that Protoss especially can't adapt to(Tears of the Moon). You're EXACTLY the kind of guy OP is talking about
Are the maps balanced perfectly in your opinion?
The maps really had very little to do with this series and Flash is the better player, that much I'll admit. But you seem to think maps aren't important.
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On September 11 2010 22:13 Lonyo wrote:
Actually the terran "imbalance" in BW is a perfect example of why complaining about SC2 "imbalance" is stupid.
Maybe some things are a little easy to take advantage of (e.g. reaper), but as SC BW has shown, different races have different periods of dominance for different reasons.
Just because T is "OP" or "imba" right now doesn't necessarily mean that it will be so forevermore, even without balance changes.
IMO we need new maps that don't play so much to T strengths (lots of cliffs to take easy advantage of, open natural expos etc).
Someone dominating BW doesn't show imbalance, and it's stupid to claim it does, but the varying periods of dominance by different races shows that balance changes over time as strategies are developed.
When you get someone like Flash, who is imbalanced, then that changes things, but that doesn't mean the game is imbalanced, just that Flash is.
BW is balanced via 12 years of competitive play and several patches, and balanced to the point where maps are the main balance factor in games. People complaining about races being imbalanced in BW are stupid. People who complain about maps being imbalanced might be right, at times.
It isn't the same story in SC2.
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You said exactly what I thinked this morning in this blog. I'm tired to read everywhere and everytime IMBA, OP, NERF, BUFF etc. Now when a guy lose a game it's not his fault... It's just because he lose versus an imba thing.
This is funny because now even on BW the tendance of whinning and crying is arrived.
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On September 11 2010 22:42 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 22:39 Demand2k wrote:On September 11 2010 22:05 Lightwip wrote:
Not that there's imbalance, but maps usually tend to favor terran the most.
Not just MSL/OSL maps but in general. There are just some things that Protoss especially can't adapt to(Tears of the Moon). You're EXACTLY the kind of guy OP is talking about Are the maps balanced perfectly in your opinion? The maps really had very little to do with this series and Flash is the better player, that much I'll admit. But you seem to think maps aren't important.
It hasn't been an issue for years, and Flash alone skewes statistics for several maps. If he hadn't existed, people would have cried "zerg imba" since JD is as a far ahead of #3 and on as Flash is ahead of JD.
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On September 11 2010 22:33 amarillo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 22:24 SubtleArt wrote:
With thousands upon thousans upon thousands upon thousands of games, if the matchup were truly balanced it would be almost dead 50/50, at the max 51% for terran, but its 53.7% all time, and this year was around 59%. Four of the six greatest players of all time were Terran and yet Terran is ahead less than 4% so this means Terran is imbalanced? What? Why are you acting as though the players are identical computer A.I.s and would win 50% of the time in all matchups if all the races and maps were balanced?
Because 4 players, no matter how good, aren't enough to skew stats that much in a sample that includes such a ridiculous amount of games. This is all pro games ever played, including online as well as offline qualifiers, SPL, OSL, MSL, and GOM. Ask yourself how many pros have played Starcraft in Korea....you think that 4 Terrans would be able to skew the stats so much in a 10 year sample that the balance % would be close to their TvZ stats? Wtf, this is simple logic. I don't think you realize just how many players and games there have been.
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Can someone calculate this season's Terran % with two scenarios?
a) Current one
b) Flash at 50% winrate and the rest of the wins given to the other races
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On September 11 2010 22:39 Demand2k wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 22:05 Lightwip wrote:
Not that there's imbalance, but maps usually tend to favor terran the most.
Not just MSL/OSL maps but in general. There are just some things that Protoss especially can't adapt to(Tears of the Moon). You're EXACTLY the kind of guy OP is talking about. Your first sentence can be rewritten into "Not that there's imbalance, but maps usually tend to be imbalanced". What's the difference between racial vs map "imbalance"?
Map imbalance is well known and is always recognized - some maps are generally even by MU, some lean towards certain races in certain matchups. There are very tangible things (defensibility of the nat, min-only expansions, etc) that determine map balance.
Racial balance is much harder as you have to take into account player skill, the maps, the strategies, and a thousand other things to say if a race is 'better' than another. That's an entirely different matter.
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I played many games as terran and at on point I was top #600 in the world and I say terran is imba vs zerg
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On September 11 2010 22:24 SubtleArt wrote:
Come on, there is innate TvZ imbalance. So many players have admitted it. Have you read Sea's last 5 interviews?
"I believe that against Zerg I must win"
"I beat JAedong due to the innate fraudulence of TErran"
"Its a really good strat, and I don't think theres any way for Zerg to win if Terran handles it properly"
With thousands upon thousans upon thousands upon thousands of games, if the matchup were truly balanced it would be almost dead 50/50, at the max 51% for terran, but its 53.7% all time, and this year was around 59%.
I believe in the T>Z>P>T thing, but even discarding that, this year, at the very least, you can't deny Terran was definitely ahead of Zerg in TvZ
lol can't stop laughing. Well regged in 2010 keep on spamming Bs. There's something called maps. and 53% is pretty balanced
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On September 11 2010 22:54 Demand2k wrote:
Can someone calculate this season's Terran % with two scenarios?
a) Current one
b) Flash at 50% winrate and the rest of the wins given to the other races
Yes, you can.
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Canada2480 Posts
On September 11 2010 22:13 Lonyo wrote:
Actually the terran "imbalance" in BW is a perfect example of why complaining about SC2 "imbalance" is stupid.
Maybe some things are a little easy to take advantage of (e.g. reaper), but as SC BW has shown, different races have different periods of dominance for different reasons.
Just because T is "OP" or "imba" right now doesn't necessarily mean that it will be so forevermore, even without balance changes.
IMO we need new maps that don't play so much to T strengths (lots of cliffs to take easy advantage of, open natural expos etc).
Someone dominating BW doesn't show imbalance, and it's stupid to claim it does, but the varying periods of dominance by different races shows that balance changes over time as strategies are developed.
When you get someone like Flash, who is imbalanced, then that changes things, but that doesn't mean the game is imbalanced, just that Flash is.
complaining about BW is stupid
Complaining about SC2 is good, they need to pump out patches, you can't have perfect balance on first try, complaints help them fix problems. if we all keep quiet that means the game is perfectly balanced and there is no place for amelioration, it took I don't know how many patches to have BroodWar as it is today (spawning pool at 150 minerals anyone?).
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On September 11 2010 22:22 ZlaSHeR wrote:
Don't worry, all the apriltards who joined TL just to enter those beta key contests dont exactly realize that this game takes a brain.
This final was Flash v Jaedong, not TvZ
april tards?? why not april fools!
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I got bored and looked up the win rates for Terrans in TvZ and TvP during proleague, winner's league, the last three MSLs, and the last three OSLs. It's 52.5% (528-477). I can't really say that screams imbalance to me. Actually it's kind of funny when you consider how it seems like every map except Dreamliner, Fighting Spirit, and to some extent Polaris Rhapsody get cries of Terran imbalance.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 11 2010 23:47 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 22:13 Lonyo wrote:
Actually the terran "imbalance" in BW is a perfect example of why complaining about SC2 "imbalance" is stupid.
Maybe some things are a little easy to take advantage of (e.g. reaper), but as SC BW has shown, different races have different periods of dominance for different reasons.
Just because T is "OP" or "imba" right now doesn't necessarily mean that it will be so forevermore, even without balance changes.
IMO we need new maps that don't play so much to T strengths (lots of cliffs to take easy advantage of, open natural expos etc).
Someone dominating BW doesn't show imbalance, and it's stupid to claim it does, but the varying periods of dominance by different races shows that balance changes over time as strategies are developed.
When you get someone like Flash, who is imbalanced, then that changes things, but that doesn't mean the game is imbalanced, just that Flash is. complaining about BW is stupid Complaining about SC2 is good, they need to pump out patches, you can't have perfect balance on first try, complaints help them fix problems. if we all keep quiet that means the game is perfectly balanced and there is no place for amelioration, it took I don't know how many patches to have BroodWar as it is today (spawning pool at 150 minerals anyone?). BW had two patches total that dealt with balance, and they were like a year apart. What on earth is your point? Pumping out patches for SC2 is about the worst thing they could do.
BW isn't perfectly balanced (*gasp*) because perfect balance is unobtainable. There's always variance in player skill, player condition and maps that tip the odds one direction or another and have a greater impact than the race's innate abilities. The fact that they achieved that is incredible and its done so better than anything else to date, but to call anything perfectly balanced is silly. The only way a game could be balanced was if there was only one race.
Flash outplayed Jaedong today, and while the fourth game was aggravating, Jaedong made many more mistakes than Flash and did not play at the same level. If there was anything imba involved, it could've easily been overcome by Jaedong playing better.
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On September 11 2010 22:42 Sentenal wrote:
BW is balanced via 12 years of competitive play and several patches, and balanced to the point where maps are the main balance factor in games. People complaining about races being imbalanced in BW are stupid. People who complain about maps being imbalanced might be right, at times.
It isn't the same story in SC2.
So here's a question: what's the difference between racial and map imbalance? How do you know that Z/T/P isn't actually ridiculously imbalanced, but the maps favor the other two races? How can you have a 'pure' racial imbalance without taking into account the maps, or a 'pure' map imbalance without taking into account the races? You can't. They're both equally part of the game.
The only real reason to favor map imbalance over race imbalance is that it's a lot easier to balance with maps than with mechanics changes. This is reasonable, but it doesn't mean that the races are necessarily balanced in BW while the maps aren't; I think people are too pre-occupied with the image of BW as a perfect game, when it really doesn't matter. It's meaningless to say that balance issues come from a certain part of the game; you have to look at the game as a whole. We should instead be thinking that while the game as a whole might be imbalanced, some things are easier to change than others (e.g. the maps).
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+ Show Spoiler +karma for all the Terran's that cried about Protoss imbalance despite there having never been a Protoss bonjwa XD
but really, ever since more and more people have flocked here for sc2, the crying and whining about imbalance has exponentially grown
and while I love Artosis, what he and Idra are doing isn't helping it at all because so many incompetents hear their opinion and all of a sudden they're brainwashed and can't get the idea out of their head that Terran is horribly imbalanced (kinda like they complained about Protoss in SC1)
+ Show Spoiler +(and Idra/Artosis complaining about imbalance isn't even really a viable source. They both complained about Protoss being imba in SC1 as Terran players even though it was the most underrepresented race amongst the ACTUAL pros of SC1. now they're both Zerg and they both complain about Terran being imba. I'm not saying Zerg isn't the weakest race right now, but just because a well-known figure makes an accusation of imbalance doesn't give all the nerds in plastic league the right to spread imba-qq like a plague)
funny thing is, most losses blamed on imbalance wouldn't have been losses if they had been played better. anyways I ranted, +1 to the OP
stop whining people, if you lose it was probably your fault, stop blaming it on imbalance, MAN UP
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*Sigh* I hate it when people cry imbalance over BW. I mean come on, can't these guys realize that its Flash vs Jaedong, and not just an ordinary TvZ?
Besides, Its not that certain units are imba in the game, its just what players do with them that makes them more cost efficient and not Imba.
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If only there was less emotion and more thinking with anything in life.
April fools indeed.
Edit: My win rate is 53% Im so IMBA!!! woooo
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EPT
