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So there's this guy at work. He was arrested some time ago on suspicion of things which - according to him - totally didn't happen and he can prove it. Obviously I have no access to whatever evidence there is or whatever the police had that led to him being considered a suspect, but from working with him I'd estimate it's about 98% sure he's telling the truth and is innocent.
However, this guy hadn't ever been in trouble with the police before, ended up working a plea bargain deal because he just wanted to get out of the system. Via the deal, he preemptively pled guilty and "got off" with a "small" fine and counseling.
Of course, the economy being what it is, he's had trouble finding work with this on his record, is now working to pay the fine - and because he's working, he's missed the counseling sessions and stuff while (from what he says) also getting behind on the fine payments. As it is now, he's got his court check-in date, currently not meeting the requirements of the deal, and if he doesn't get something worked out, he's likely going to jail.
Bonus story: a few years ago, I misjudged my stopping distance while driving and ran a red light. I got pulled over. The cop wrote me a ticket for 5-over the limit, a completely different offense but one that a) wouldn't stay on my record and b) is just a moving violation, not a misdemeanor, so doesn't require a trial. I went in to the court office and paid the fine - that was it. I wasn't going to appeal, because I had no idea what would happen... and anyway, I had run the light, even if by a fraction of a second, so it wouldn't do any good, and the 5-over fine is lighter.
But now I'm really bothered by this. How can you be accused of a crime and not get a trial? The Constitution enshrines right to trial by jury; this implies a duty of the government to provide court and jury whenever someone's charged, right?
Of course, I know that's naive: bureaucracy is what it is, and law at some point stops mattering in the face of the inertia that is the faceless paperwork machine.
But this guy at work got screwed; I got lucky, but that's exactly what it was, lucky. The cop avoided trouble and papwerwork in my case; whoever was handling my coworker's case screwed him over to avoid the complications of a real trial, and got away with it because this guy had no idea what he was dealing with.
Maybe governments should be scared of their people, but at the moment I'm feeling infuriated, helpless, and maybe a little scared.
What can I do?
What should I do?
How did we get here?
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Um...your guy at work screwed himself? He could have gone to trial but opted to save time, money (attorney), etc. by just admitting to a reduced offense (or plea bargain). Stupid decision imo if he was confident that he could prove his innocence. As an adult, the only person who handles your case is yourself. He should know what's good for him at this point...especially if he's had a run in with the law before.
As an additional point. The law isn't perfect. But the American judicial system (especially civil) is one of the best in the world imo.
Edit: why the hell did that smily face appear.
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For Real. There are many problems with the law these days that I hope the up coming politicians of this generation deal with.
I would recommend this ted talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/philip_howard.html
Its related in the sense that it talks about how US laws are ridiculous.
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On September 09 2010 12:57 Musoeun wrote:
So there's this guy at work. He was arrested some time ago on suspicion of things which - according to him - totally didn't happen and he can prove it. Obviously I have no access to whatever evidence there is or whatever the police had that led to him being considered a suspect, but from working with him I'd estimate it's about 98% sure he's telling the truth and is innocent.
However, this guy hadn't ever been in trouble with the police before, ended up working a plea bargain deal because he just wanted to get out of the system. Via the deal, he preemptively pled guilty and "got off" with a "small" fine and counseling.
Of course, the economy being what it is, he's had trouble finding work with this on his record, is now working to pay the fine - and because he's working, he's missed the counseling sessions and stuff while (from what he says) also getting behind on the fine payments. As it is now, he's got his court check-in date, currently not meeting the requirements of the deal, and if he doesn't get something worked out, he's likely going to jail.
so ur homie at work agreed to do counseling and pay a fine to not go to jail
and he didn't do the counseling, and didn't pay the fine
yah man legal system totally fucked up kill the president
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The stuff you listed is pretty bad..... but there's other WORSE stuff in our judicial system such as.....
1. Litigation in general. It makes us look like a joke to the rest of the world. How the hell are you going to sue McDonalds for not putting a "hot" on their coffee cups? How do you even get a CASE claming that video games are addictive? TERRIBLE.
2. Malpractice is a joke too. Which is partially why insurance rates are us sky high.
3. Divorce law. So badly skew to punish males EVEN when they're being cuckolded (still have to pay up to 50% to woman) or have to pay child support for another man's child (even with paternity test).
BTW, you can go to jail if you stop paying child support.... for a kid that's not yours.
4. Rape cases. Even when the man is proven innocent his name gets dragged through the dirt and will face extreme prejudice and hardship trying to find a decent job afterwards. Plus, the legal fees and everything and the accuser gets off scot free.
There's a fair percentage of cases that are fake rape claims too. Not to downplay actual rape victims but this is a HUGE problem.
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Your friend pled guilty and you are upset because he didn't get a trial? ;o
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I guess, what I'm trying to get at is more that with the system the way it is we end with with pricks in power who don't explain how it's supposed to work and aren't actually working for the people, and it's complicated enough that most people don't know how it really works - I mean, you learn the Constitution, maybe even some state constitutional stuff, but very little about the court system, it's not stressed at all in the standard education - so you end up with these situations where people end up completely ignorant, and screw up because of it.
On September 09 2010 13:20 BlackJack wrote:
Your friend pled guilty and you are upset because he didn't get a trial? ;o
No... I'm irritated because he agreed to what he thought was the easiest way out, and nobody told him different. He didn't have a private lawyer; no way he'd afford one. So his publicly appointed counsel didn't tell him it was a bad idea; whatever he learned in school wasn't enough for him to figure out this was a bad idea - it's just ugly all around. I'm not making out it's the smartest thing he's ever done, I'm just saying that I don't even understand how it could happen like this in a sane world, and that irritates me.
TL;DR: Ignorance enrages me. When ignorance is if not encouraged at least tolerated and taken advantage of, by people supposed to be serving the public good, I'm both outraged and frustrated because I don't know what to do.
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do you know what he was accused of?
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On September 09 2010 13:14 baller wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 12:57 Musoeun wrote:
So there's this guy at work. He was arrested some time ago on suspicion of things which - according to him - totally didn't happen and he can prove it. Obviously I have no access to whatever evidence there is or whatever the police had that led to him being considered a suspect, but from working with him I'd estimate it's about 98% sure he's telling the truth and is innocent.
However, this guy hadn't ever been in trouble with the police before, ended up working a plea bargain deal because he just wanted to get out of the system. Via the deal, he preemptively pled guilty and "got off" with a "small" fine and counseling.
Of course, the economy being what it is, he's had trouble finding work with this on his record, is now working to pay the fine - and because he's working, he's missed the counseling sessions and stuff while (from what he says) also getting behind on the fine payments. As it is now, he's got his court check-in date, currently not meeting the requirements of the deal, and if he doesn't get something worked out, he's likely going to jail. so ur homie at work agreed to do counseling and pay a fine to not go to jail and he didn't do the counseling, and didn't pay the fine yah man legal system totally fucked up kill the president
this made me laugh so fucking hard, cause its so true.
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On September 09 2010 13:33 Gatsbi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 13:14 baller wrote:On September 09 2010 12:57 Musoeun wrote:
So there's this guy at work. He was arrested some time ago on suspicion of things which - according to him - totally didn't happen and he can prove it. Obviously I have no access to whatever evidence there is or whatever the police had that led to him being considered a suspect, but from working with him I'd estimate it's about 98% sure he's telling the truth and is innocent.
However, this guy hadn't ever been in trouble with the police before, ended up working a plea bargain deal because he just wanted to get out of the system. Via the deal, he preemptively pled guilty and "got off" with a "small" fine and counseling.
Of course, the economy being what it is, he's had trouble finding work with this on his record, is now working to pay the fine - and because he's working, he's missed the counseling sessions and stuff while (from what he says) also getting behind on the fine payments. As it is now, he's got his court check-in date, currently not meeting the requirements of the deal, and if he doesn't get something worked out, he's likely going to jail. so ur homie at work agreed to do counseling and pay a fine to not go to jail and he didn't do the counseling, and didn't pay the fine yah man legal system totally fucked up kill the president this made me laugh so fucking hard, cause its so true.
Well...he's pretty poor (I'm guessing since he got a public appointed attorney), so there's the little problem he's in (which could have easily been averted had he made the right choice earlier). But pretty much he's got a counseling requirement, fine, and a job. But when you usually have a job that pays minimum wage, you aren't given leeway in terms of missed days (even for court...the employer just doesn't give a fuck since he can hire pretty much anyone real quick who has the same skill set but more dependable).
So in order to make counseling, he needs to miss work, which in turn will make him lose his job, which will disallow him to pay his fine. Pretty harsh combo. A lot of people don't have the privilege to take time out of their day to go to counseling or just pay a fine. But something he could have probably anticipated and averted with a better decision on the outset.
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Your boy is some stupid shit.
"Yo, I can prove I didn't do it, but I'ma plead anyways. This way I can have stuff on my record." You know that pleading guilty means you are admitting guilt right? Why would you EVER make a deal when you know you can prove yourself innocent?
This just tells me that he is bullshitting you and probably really did it, or is dumb as a pile of sticks. Really, the options come down to you being naive or him being epically stupid. Why wouldnt you take off work to go to your mandated counseling sessions?
Further, the constitution only mandates a jury trial in serious cases, unless the defendant waives his right to a trial WHICH HE DID. It's not his defense lawyer that is stupid, or bad, or didnt learn enough in school. Your friend made misstep after misstep and you wonder why things are going wrong for him? Seriously...
// The police don't randomly arrest people.... They can only do so if they personally observe a felony happening, or an arrest warrant is issued. To get the arrest warrant, there has to be some evidence that this guy is more likely then not related to the crime as opposed to random joe on the street. Even with arrests made, prosecutors often decide not to try cases because they might not be very strong, and there are a ton of them to do. Obviously, pick and choose the best ones to try. Thats why good prosecutors have 98-99% winrates and expert counsel has like 55-60% winrates.
THERE IS NO REASON TO TAKE THE DEAL IF YOU ARE INNOCENT.
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Traffic infractions are a strange one, they aren't "criminal" offenses, so therefore you are not entitled to a trial. It's like a parking ticket. The burden of proof is on you as the "defendant" in these cases.
As for your buddy, obviously you know him better than I do, but based on your story I'm pretty skeptical about his innocence. Despite what people do on TV and in movies, most people aren't stupid enough to agree to a plea bargain and plead guilty to a crime they didn't commit. Again, despite what you see on TV and in movies, innocent people usually don't go to jail. I think you'd actually find it's pretty rare. Also, if he clearly had evidence, I just don't get it at all.
Aside from this, whether he did it or not is irrelevant. He agreed to terms as part of the bargain. He is not fulfilling his part of the deal. Regardless of circumstances, it's pretty open and shut to me. Let me ask you what the alternative should be? Let him off? Give him more time? How much more time? "Due to work he couldn't go to counseling" is super weak too. Did he inform the court prior to missing the dates that he couldn't attend? Did he attempt to make alternate arrangements? Even if he couldn't get out of it, isn't it better to go, lose the job you got, and then at least have a leg to stand on with a judge?
This whole story reeks of insincerity. I think your buddy is lying to you or at least omitting bits and pieces.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_jury_in_the_United_States
That is a quick read on jury trials in the United States. Juries are required for punishments over 6 months in jail. There is also a link to a book (citation 7) where a dude claims we should have jury trials for all punishments because "all" is a serious word (as written in the Constitution).
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On September 09 2010 12:57 Musoeun wrote:
So there's this guy at work. He was arrested some time ago on suspicion of things which - according to him - totally didn't happen and he can prove it. Obviously I have no access to whatever evidence there is or whatever the police had that led to him being considered a suspect, but from working with him I'd estimate it's about 98% sure he's telling the truth and is innocent.
However, this guy hadn't ever been in trouble with the police before, ended up working a plea bargain deal because he just wanted to get out of the system. Via the deal, he preemptively pled guilty and "got off" with a "small" fine and counseling.
It's tough to feel outraged with an explanation of the "guy's" supposed "back story" as vague as the one given.
Then you say his public defender didn't advise him of a basic strategy, which is tell the truth. The story seems to suggest that the "system" had it out for him, which is improbable for someone who has no prior offenses.
Have you checked to see if he has any prior offenses?
All the stuff you're saying is light on the details, which makes it sound as though this guy just wants you to feel bad for him.
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I am sorry but you simply do not admit to crime you didn't commit when police holds no evidence to prove that you are guilty. If your friend is as innocent as he said he was then screw the lawyers and screw the police. They have no evidence meaning they cannot do anything about it. The fact that he admitted the crime seems like the police got something on him.
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EPT
