|
On August 12 2010 11:26 Ndugu wrote:
I admit and have already admitted the build I used was bad... I was pointing out the reason it is completely 100% non-viable against Terran and how that is bad design.
How does the inability of a bad player to execute a crap build make it bad design??
Carriers are viable... you just have no clue what you're doing. You tried to shoehorn them into a makeshift build after getting a minor advantage from stopping a drop.
AW MAN WHY WAS I NOT ABLE TO MASS AN ARMY OF EXPENSIVE UNITS THAT TAKE FOREVER TO BUILD OFF OF ONE BASE??
|
On August 12 2010 22:50 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 11:26 Ndugu wrote:
I admit and have already admitted the build I used was bad... I was pointing out the reason it is completely 100% non-viable against Terran and how that is bad design.
How does the inability of a bad player to execute a crap build make it bad design?? Carriers are viable... you just have no clue what you're doing. You tried to shoehorn them into a makeshift build after getting a minor advantage from stopping a drop. AW MAN WHY WAS I NOT ABLE TO MASS AN ARMY OF EXPENSIVE UNITS THAT TAKE FOREVER TO BUILD OFF OF ONE BASE??
You are missing the point.
Yes, the Terran PERFECTLY countered my entire unit composition. He deserved the win. It is balanced.
You're missing the point.
My problem is that, as Terran, he did absolutely NOTHING in order to flawlessly counter my carriers. He didn't build a new building. He didn't even have to build a new add-on. He simply scanned, and started pumping vikings instead of medivacs.
Once it passes mid-game, Terran has access to any unit they want. Zerg usually can't even do this and it is what their race is known for. Regardless, I have a lot more trouble with Zerg than Terran. I do well versus Terran and don't think they're significantly OP versus Protoss. I just think the ease with which they can counter certain things without any kind of investment is poor design. It is why Carriers will almost never be a viable unit except in very specific situations where the Protoss player is already at advantage.
Compare that to if a Protoss player gets an obs into a Terran base, and realizes the Terran already has 4 battlecruisers.
Would the Protoss player always have two stargates built to start double-pumping Void Rays? No. Sure, they could throw down some stargates, wait, and start pumping Void Rays. If the Terran pushes at this point, they could lose-- if the Terran waits too long, they will be countered and lose their advantage. This is how countering works in all parts of the game EXCEPT FOR TERRAN AND VIKINGS.
Also, in the above example the Terran player could just build some vikings to help defend their battlecruisers from Void Rays.
How do I defend my Carriers from Vikings? (well, my idea that I have a lot of fun with, is blink stalkers  )
As Protoss, all your air units die for cost to Vikings. Phoenixes, last I checked, are not cost-effective against them if you consider that gas is more valuable than minerals.
Thats why I've been experimenting with blink stalkers as a counter to vikings so that I may go air versus Terran. I like to have fun and be creative.
Obviously Marauder/viking FLAWLESSLY countered this.
It would probably work against marine/ghost into Vikings ,and in the future I'll give that a shot
I'm getting tempted to post the replay, but I did almost win 
I should have build two-stargates, as the incredibly slow build time on carriers meant that I got them much slower than I had wanted. If I had done that, I would have been blowing through gas faster, meaning more zealots on the ground to deal (better) with his marauders than the stalkers (obviously did). Since I experimented with carriers in that game, I could use them more effectively in the future. I was at +2 air and he never upgraded armor when he pushed, so I know that my timings on upgrades was good as my carriers had +32 damage.
Now it almost sounds like I'm saying Carriers are viable. But note that the Terran player literally did not know I was making carriers until I already had several, and still had time make enough Vikings to win. I imagine a good Terran player would ALWAYS scout either the fleet beacon or the first carrier and then start pumping vikings. The Stargate even shows you exactly what is being built. Against a clearly poor Terran it failed. Against a good Terran it wouldn't even get off the ground in any non-dream scenario.
In fact, if I had grabbed charge instead of blink and merely focused the vikings with my stalkers, rather than blinked to them, it might have worked. He would have stim-kited my zealots and maybe all the vikings would have died to my stalkers/carrier/void ray. Sure I would have lost my ground army, but that was the plan all along and I could have made it work
I also go carriers and blink stalkers standard if I can trick a Terran into staying marine/tank into the late game. Have won a lot of very fun games that way I exploit high ground to lure the vikings away from the ground army and kill them/force them to retreat with blink stalkers.
Also, regardless of losing, I had a ton of fun with that build. This game is a ton of fun. Carriers being viable is a ton of fun. So please relax and try and understand what I'm saying. This is TeamLiquid, not 4chan. No need to be so immature.
|
I think the replay would be worth seeing. 1) 2 base carriers. 2) 1 stargate 3) early game advantage from the sounds of it.
I think you screwed the pooch my friend and just missed your window because of a failure of aggression on the Terran player. Seriously you just wasted too much time waiting for carriers. The amount of time he would have had to set up his counter to you was probably huge that is why I think the replay would be good to see.
|
Once it passes the mid-game terran has access to any unit he wants, as long as that unit is a marine, hellion or viking...
Its not like terran can reactor tanks, thors, marauders, battlecruisers, banshees, ghosts, reapers, or ravens.
Once it gets to the midgame, Toss can easily mass Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar and Dark Templar. If they have 2 stargates they can chornoboost poenixes. If the have 2 robos they can chrono boost immortals.
I'm so sick of the "You can't talk to terrans" schtick. You can't talk to anyone you can't listen to and empathize with. You have to listen to what other people are saying to be able to make intelligent points yourself. If you just ignore anything a terran player says because you've already assumed you know everything, you have no one to blame but yourself for your frustration.
|
On August 12 2010 23:35 OmniEulogy wrote:
I think the replay would be worth seeing. 1) 2 base carriers. 2) 1 stargate 3) early game advantage from the sounds of it.
I think you screwed the pooch my friend and just missed your window because of a failure of aggression on the Terran player. Seriously you just wasted too much time waiting for carriers. The amount of time he would have had to set up his counter to you was probably huge that is why I think the replay would be good to see.
You're absolutely right. I would be much more highly ranked on the ladder if I didn't try obscure strategies when I see the opportunity, but eventually they'll get ironed out and be fine.
If he didn't attack when he did, I would have had a few +3 carriers and mass blink stalkers to suicide on his vikings.
I would have done better not to include the specific game in the post as an example, because it was a clearly more skilled player dicking around with a worse player-- who perfectly countered and came back.
In equal skill matches however, those Vikings are going to be up in time to deal with carriers every time. They are a non-viable unit because they can be instantly countered in late-game due to Terran's immense flexibility-- my main point of this post.
While I Might be able to use it in ladder and win, a good Protoss versus a Good Terran in a tournament isn't going to let carriers accomplish anything unless its a ridiculous cheese (Why not make mothership then?) or a kind of insult after obtaining so much of an advantage.
And, ignoring vikings for a second, assuming your opponent doesnt make a single viking. a couple thors AOE destroy all of the interceptors so instantly that carriers actually become massively expensive and cant kill anything, not even counting the massive -16 damage for every armor a unit has.
But I don't mean for this to be about carrier viability on its own merits. Its about Carrier viability in a paradigm where you can, without any investment of time or tech, have access to a very, very hard-counter to carriers that cant be microed against and has no weakness of any kind. Void Rays, for example, only have 6 range, making them vulnerable to ground forces as they snipe your battlecruisers/carriers/brood lords. Vikings have NO weaknesses. They are the most flawless hard-counter in the game.
|
On August 13 2010 00:46 EccoEcco wrote:
Once it passes the mid-game terran has access to any unit he wants, as long as that unit is a marine, hellion or viking...
Its not like terran can reactor tanks, thors, marauders, battlecruisers, banshees, ghosts, reapers, or ravens.
Once it gets to the midgame, Toss can easily mass Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar and Dark Templar. If they have 2 stargates they can chornoboost poenixes. If the have 2 robos they can chrono boost immortals.
I'm so sick of the "You can't talk to terrans" schtick. You can't talk to anyone you can't listen to and empathize with. You have to listen to what other people are saying to be able to make intelligent points yourself. If you just ignore anything a terran player says because you've already assumed you know everything, you have no one to blame but yourself for your frustration.
I'm not talking about reactors. Reactors are obviously there so that Terran can match the flexibility of Warp-in and Spawn larva. K, we agree. Stop saying the same things over and over again you cute lil Terrans. <3
The problem is all you Terran players are kinda ignoring my point.
Once late game hits you have unparalleled flexibility. Because of reactor/tech lab synergy. and the fact that your tech path is so simple. That's fine. Wings of Liberty is balanced around that, so this is not a QQ nerf Terran Nao! post.
I'm saying in the future, that allowing hard-counter units to be readily available without tech or research is bad design. Hellions are an example of pretty decent design-- you have to get a research on a tech lab, or forgo the research to double-pump them fast. To get mass Hellions to pwn light you need to take a time, decision, and building investment. DO I throw down 2 factories so I can double pump and get the research?
With Vikings, there is no decision. "Oh okay time to make Vikings Gogo victory!". If Vikings were nerfed to 6 damage + 8 to armor like in beta, with the +8 damage being an upgrade on a tech lab, it would be the kind of thing I mean. It would take a bit more time before you could hard-counter your enemy. In the game I played, he probably still would have pulled it off.
Obviously that would create problems with Void Rays in this expansion (in that it would take longer to kill them early in the game. It wouldn't affect high level play whatsoever thanks to micro, but it would mess with lower skill levels). thats why I suggest a change of this spirit, not this EXACT idea, in future expansions when the game receives a balance overhaul. (That's also why I Don't sugest a range nerf that would allow carriers to kite them, as vikings need to beat void rays)
Terran should have to scout and then adapt. If you scout something you aren't prepared for, you lay down a new building, grab a new research, or SOMETHING. Not
Terran: oh lol I'll make vikings instead of medivacs lololol STFU COLLOSI, STFU Carrier. U DEAD. I am a really skilled Terran player who is adept at countering my foes! No one less skilled than me would have had a Starport after mid-game! No one would have known how to lift off and put a reactor on it and make vikings! I am so GOSU! Since I went MMM I had so much spare gas to burn anyway!
|
Adding more tech buildings is not the way to go. The problem is that vikings themselves are too versatile and need a nerf. They're the best anti-air unit in the game and they can transfer into goliaths too?
|
Oh yes, totally unparalleled late game!
Oh? What's that? Zerg can drop a million larve and have 30 units out in one shot? Toss can warp in a billion stalkers as a very simple way to deal with Vikings?? INSTANTLY??
Is the game broken because hellions are more or less worthless against toss??
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. It is amazing.
|
I really feel zerg needs more units with bonus damages. The only 2 units that terran players seem to QQ about(banelings and ultra) are the ones with bonus damages.
|
On August 13 2010 01:08 Xyik wrote:
Adding more tech buildings is not the way to go. The problem is that vikings themselves are too versatile and need a nerf. They're the best anti-air unit in the game and they can transfer into goliaths too?
It's possible that is the way to go.
That being said, Terran DOES need a hard-counter to massive/armored air. It just shouldn't always be available. It can't be "so good" and "so fast" to get. It needs to be one or the other.
I'm usually in favor of making something more interesting and more based on player skill than just straight up nerfing a unit. Forcing Terran to start getting their Viking army upgraded and built via anticipation and good scouting rather than, hm, i just saw his army. Let me start countering it now. Other races don't have that luxury.
You're not really worth communicating with on this subject Hawk.
You admit that Carriers are totally non-viable and are a "retarded build" that only a "bad player" would use, yet you refuse to participate in a discussion on why that is the case and how to fix it.
|
The problem with the viking is that it counters EVERY air unit and can still transform to fight ground units. Compare that to the corruptor or phoenix. Would you still complain about the viking if it was only very effective vs. carriers, bcs, brood lords? The way the viking is now, even if it required extra tech everyone would still get it. It's a great TvT unit due to harass / shutting down drops, banshee and its almost necessary to have it in TvP to counter void ray / collosus. Adding extra tech buildings adds 0 depth to the game imo. If you want to add 'skill' then give the unit itself some interesting features.
|
On August 13 2010 01:38 Xyik wrote:
The problem with the viking is that it counters EVERY air unit and can still transform to fight ground units. Compare that to the corruptor or phoenix. Would you still complain about the viking if it was only very effective vs. carriers, bcs, brood lords? The way the viking is now, even if it required extra tech everyone would still get it. It's a great TvT unit due to harass / shutting down drops, banshee and its almost necessary to have it in TvP to counter void ray / collosus. Adding extra tech buildings adds 0 depth to the game imo. If you want to add 'skill' then give the unit itself some interesting features.
Get back to work.
|
On August 13 2010 00:51 Ndugu wrote:
Vikings have NO weaknesses. They are the most flawless hard-counter in the game.
holy crap. Would you listen to yourself for a second.
Vikings get chewed up by hydras and stalkers, and frankly aren't too hot against corruptors or phoenixes. Vikings are an anti-air unit. I'm sorry that its shocking they'd be good against other air units that have different roles, balance out against other air to air focused units and get ripped apart by ground to air.
3 units with similar function, cost and built time
Vikings
Edge - can transform into a marine that can't shoot air
Flaw - most fragile of air-to-air specialists
Corruptor
Edge - Armored with most hit points
Flaw - slow movement
Phoenix
Edge - OMG speed, shoots on move and can lift
flaw - bonus damage to light units instead of armored or massive like the other 2.
All three can be produced at similar speeds re-actively IF a reactor/Chrono Boost/Larva is already available.
|
On August 13 2010 02:21 EccoEcco wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 00:51 Ndugu wrote:
Vikings have NO weaknesses. They are the most flawless hard-counter in the game. holy crap. Would you listen to yourself for a second. Vikings get chewed up by hydras and stalkers, and frankly aren't too hot against corruptors or phoenixes. Vikings are an anti-air unit. I'm sorry that its shocking they'd be good against other air units that have different roles, balance out against other air to air focused units and get ripped apart by ground to air. 3 units with similar function, cost and built time Vikings Edge - can transform into a marine that can't shoot air Flaw - most fragile of air-to-air specialists Corruptor Edge - Armored with most hit points Flaw - slow movement Phoenix Edge - OMG speed, shoots on move and can lift flaw - bonus damage to light units instead of armored or massive like the other 2. All three can be produced at similar speeds re-actively IF a reactor/Chrono Boost/Larva is already available.
VIkings are indeed weak at ground to air units... thankfully, they should never, ever be in range of them.
Its like saying immortals are a bad counter to Thors because banshees can shoot them.
What I mean is, in most cases, units have SOME recourse against that which counters them. Thors can use 250mm cannon on immortals. Marauders can stim-kite ultralisks.
Stalkers can kite immortals. Lings can beat hellions if they can get a surround...
Mutalisks can spread out against thors.
Carriers could abuse high-ground/range against Goliaths in Starcraft I. It goes on and on.
Vikings, on the other hand, wtfpwn the things they counter.
|
One thing I can see changing about viking is for the gas cost to be brought up slightly. Right now they are 75 gas compared to 100 for the corrupter and phoenix. Of course thats offset by the fact that they are so damn easy to kill at 120 HP as opposes to 120 HP, 60 shields & 200 HP and 2 armor.
if you look at the inverse match-ups. You're talking about the counter available to terrans to carriers, you need to look at the counter available to battlecruisers. Thats really voidrays which rip BCs apart and scale incredibly in numbers.
|
How exactly is that any different from the other 2 anti-air units? You ever try fighting corruptors with BCs?
|
On August 13 2010 01:27 Ndugu wrote:
You're not really worth communicating with on this subject Hawk.
You admit that Carriers are totally non-viable and are a "retarded build" that only a "bad player" would use, yet you refuse to participate in a discussion on why that is the case and how to fix it.
Hellions have no use in PvT, why aren't we fixing that?? Ghosts aren't so hot in TvZ. STOP EVERYTHING AND FIX THAT!
The fact that you are so adamant that every unit must have a purpose in each mu shows you have no clue how this game works. The fact that you think carriers are totally useless against terran shows it too.
They can work—not once did I anything about carriers not working ever. I simply said they dont' work if you can't wrap your head around the fact that 1basing carriers vs a terran with scan is a bad idea. Stopping a drop is hardly the advantage you think it is. You lost because you tried something stupid and lack the skills to do it. You did not think to check if he saw your build. You did not think to toss a few phoenix in to counter vikes.
It has nothing to do with the structure of terran tech, or vikings themselves. Vikes are hardly the army halting units you think they are.
On August 13 2010 02:36 EccoEcco wrote:
How exactly is that any different from the other 2 anti-air units? You ever try fighting corruptors with BCs?
On August 13 2010 02:29 Ndugu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 02:21 EccoEcco wrote:On August 13 2010 00:51 Ndugu wrote:
Vikings have NO weaknesses. They are the most flawless hard-counter in the game. holy crap. Would you listen to yourself for a second. Vikings get chewed up by hydras and stalkers, and frankly aren't too hot against corruptors or phoenixes. Vikings are an anti-air unit. I'm sorry that its shocking they'd be good against other air units that have different roles, balance out against other air to air focused units and get ripped apart by ground to air. 3 units with similar function, cost and built time Vikings Edge - can transform into a marine that can't shoot air Flaw - most fragile of air-to-air specialists Corruptor Edge - Armored with most hit points Flaw - slow movement Phoenix Edge - OMG speed, shoots on move and can lift flaw - bonus damage to light units instead of armored or massive like the other 2. All three can be produced at similar speeds re-actively IF a reactor/Chrono Boost/Larva is already available. VIkings are indeed weak at ground to air units... thankfully, they should never, ever be in range of them. Its like saying immortals are a bad counter to Thors because banshees can shoot them. What I mean is, in most cases, units have SOME recourse against that which counters them. Thors can use 250mm cannon on immortals. Marauders can stim-kite ultralisks. Stalkers can kite immortals. Lings can beat hellions if they can get a surround... Mutalisks can spread out against thors. Carriers could abuse high-ground/range against Goliaths in Starcraft I. It goes on and on. Vikings, on the other hand, wtfpwn the things they counter.
I didn't realize SC suddenly became a 1:1 unit counter fest.
|
Corruptor vs. BC before upgrades.
BC has 550 HP, 3 armor and is massive
1 Corruptor does 17 damage to a BC at a rate of 9 DPS (8.94), killing it in 62 seconds, and takes over 11 seconds to kill.
1 viking does 11 DPS to a BC, killing it in 50 seconds, and dies in 4 seconds from the BC
Carrier has 350 life, 150 shield each with 2 armor and is massive.
1 Corruptor does 10.5 DPS to a carrier, and dies to the carrier in about 2 seconds (2.08)
1 Viking does 12 DPS to a carrier, killing it in 41 seconds, BUT dies in one second to a maxed carrier.
The viking does more damage, and has more range, but is vastly more fragile than the corrupter, and corrupters can be massed much faster than the viking.
Phonixes are really apples and oranges since they aren't meant to counter capital ships.
|
I'm not too sure if this has been mentioned, but to make tech less accessible to terrans why not just have the tech labs more expensive or take more time to build? Sure, it would make the early game a bit strange and this would be a giant departure in the over arching strategy and tactics of terran play; however, it could slightly curb the effectiveness of tech switches by the terran.
|
This is a completely retarded topic, did you ever think about what would happen in bw? Typical tvp you terran will have 6 facs or so producing tank/vulture early on and then add some goliaths to kill obs and arbs. If they scan a toss making carriers they can immediately pump goliaths, that could be called hard counters, off of their existing factories. OHNOES TOO FLEXIBLE. Guess what? By the time you get to a point in late game where you're massing shit every race can mass shit that counters it. Being bad and crying on TL is no way to get better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
