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reactor is there to compensate for the chronoboost and inject larva mechanics... You will obviously fall behind without those since terran production facilities cost so much
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On August 12 2010 05:22 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 05:16 Ndugu wrote:On August 12 2010 05:13 MangoTango wrote:
What Terrans lack in inability to mass produce an army (Chronoboost/WarpGate or mass Larva morph), they make up for with the ability to produce the RIGHT unit. If the Terran makes the WRONG unit, the Terran loses. This is why unscouted tech switches are so bad for Terran, we can't just warp in 4 Stalkers instantly to scare away the Void Ray, we can only make a couple Marines at a time. This is true, but scouting as Terran isn't exactly a challenge x_X. My main point, which I will refine and eventually make a non blog post, is that Vikings and Hellions are too good and too strong of hard-counters to be so easily massable without any kind of an investment. Moving their upgrades to a specific building will mean they can get made, but wont be SO strong until the Terran makes a bit of an investment. For example, what if Viking +armor damage was added to fusion core and hellion pre-ignitor were moved to engineering bay? Would add a tiny bit more time/investment for a Terran to use those units in their strategy. Well, a lot more investment in the fusion core example. Note that I am saying do this in FUTURE expansions, as it would require a lot of re-balancing to make this work for Wings of Liberty. Preignitor is in the tech lab. Massing hellions takes a reactor. Two different tech labs, requiring 2 different production facilities to work properly. And why should you have to pay for bonus damage? Why should it be the only unit in the game that has to do this? Fighting off the first void ray in TvP can be bad enough (if your opponent can micro well), depending on how fast he rushed to it and how delayed your starport is..... Also, if preignitor was added to the ebay, hellion rushes would be even stronger..... You could get the upgrade while the factory was still building (or time it to start right as the building finishes, if that's a required building to upgrade), put the factory on a reactor made by the barracks, and mass reactor hellions, getting the upgrade really, really quickly..... Yea, kinda dumb idea overall..... Thanks for suggesting a way to make terran even easier to play though 
Once again, I didn't say "MAKE THIS BALANCE CHANGE TO FIX GAME KK GO". I said in the future, when the game as a whole receives a substantial rebalance as a result of expansions. The ability to rapidly mass units that instantly hard-counter something is bad design.
What Zerg units actually hard-counter something?
Protoss units that can be warped-in are not very strong counters to anything as well. P and Z both trade strength (in terms of hard-countering) for flexibility. Terran doesn't.
You do make a good point about hellions tech lab/reactor. Maybe the same exact thing could be done for Vikings... put an upgrade for it on tech lab.
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On August 12 2010 05:24 Ndugu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 05:22 Impervious wrote:On August 12 2010 05:16 Ndugu wrote:On August 12 2010 05:13 MangoTango wrote:
What Terrans lack in inability to mass produce an army (Chronoboost/WarpGate or mass Larva morph), they make up for with the ability to produce the RIGHT unit. If the Terran makes the WRONG unit, the Terran loses. This is why unscouted tech switches are so bad for Terran, we can't just warp in 4 Stalkers instantly to scare away the Void Ray, we can only make a couple Marines at a time. This is true, but scouting as Terran isn't exactly a challenge x_X. My main point, which I will refine and eventually make a non blog post, is that Vikings and Hellions are too good and too strong of hard-counters to be so easily massable without any kind of an investment. Moving their upgrades to a specific building will mean they can get made, but wont be SO strong until the Terran makes a bit of an investment. For example, what if Viking +armor damage was added to fusion core and hellion pre-ignitor were moved to engineering bay? Would add a tiny bit more time/investment for a Terran to use those units in their strategy. Well, a lot more investment in the fusion core example. Note that I am saying do this in FUTURE expansions, as it would require a lot of re-balancing to make this work for Wings of Liberty. Preignitor is in the tech lab. Massing hellions takes a reactor. Two different tech labs, requiring 2 different production facilities to work properly. And why should you have to pay for bonus damage? Why should it be the only unit in the game that has to do this? Fighting off the first void ray in TvP can be bad enough (if your opponent can micro well), depending on how fast he rushed to it and how delayed your starport is..... Also, if preignitor was added to the ebay, hellion rushes would be even stronger..... You could get the upgrade while the factory was still building (or time it to start right as the building finishes, if that's a required building to upgrade), put the factory on a reactor made by the barracks, and mass reactor hellions, getting the upgrade really, really quickly..... Yea, kinda dumb idea overall..... Thanks for suggesting a way to make terran even easier to play though Once again, I didn't say "MAKE THIS BALANCE CHANGE TO FIX GAME KK GO". I said in the future, when the game as a whole receives a substantial rebalance as a result of expansions. The ability to rapidly mass units that instantly hard-counter something is bad design.
So if your problem is not flexibility but the hard counters in sc2 (which has been discussed since early beta, and blizzard has removed many of these bonus dmg), then I would agree
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On August 12 2010 05:25 Glacierz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 05:24 Ndugu wrote:On August 12 2010 05:22 Impervious wrote:On August 12 2010 05:16 Ndugu wrote:On August 12 2010 05:13 MangoTango wrote:
What Terrans lack in inability to mass produce an army (Chronoboost/WarpGate or mass Larva morph), they make up for with the ability to produce the RIGHT unit. If the Terran makes the WRONG unit, the Terran loses. This is why unscouted tech switches are so bad for Terran, we can't just warp in 4 Stalkers instantly to scare away the Void Ray, we can only make a couple Marines at a time. This is true, but scouting as Terran isn't exactly a challenge x_X. My main point, which I will refine and eventually make a non blog post, is that Vikings and Hellions are too good and too strong of hard-counters to be so easily massable without any kind of an investment. Moving their upgrades to a specific building will mean they can get made, but wont be SO strong until the Terran makes a bit of an investment. For example, what if Viking +armor damage was added to fusion core and hellion pre-ignitor were moved to engineering bay? Would add a tiny bit more time/investment for a Terran to use those units in their strategy. Well, a lot more investment in the fusion core example. Note that I am saying do this in FUTURE expansions, as it would require a lot of re-balancing to make this work for Wings of Liberty. Preignitor is in the tech lab. Massing hellions takes a reactor. Two different tech labs, requiring 2 different production facilities to work properly. And why should you have to pay for bonus damage? Why should it be the only unit in the game that has to do this? Fighting off the first void ray in TvP can be bad enough (if your opponent can micro well), depending on how fast he rushed to it and how delayed your starport is..... Also, if preignitor was added to the ebay, hellion rushes would be even stronger..... You could get the upgrade while the factory was still building (or time it to start right as the building finishes, if that's a required building to upgrade), put the factory on a reactor made by the barracks, and mass reactor hellions, getting the upgrade really, really quickly..... Yea, kinda dumb idea overall..... Thanks for suggesting a way to make terran even easier to play though Once again, I didn't say "MAKE THIS BALANCE CHANGE TO FIX GAME KK GO". I said in the future, when the game as a whole receives a substantial rebalance as a result of expansions. The ability to rapidly mass units that instantly hard-counter something is bad design. So if your problem is not flexibility but the hard counters in sc2 (which has been discussed since early beta, and blizzard has removed many of these bonus dmg), then I would agree
Hard counters exist for a reason. Good examples of hard-counters would be say, immortals. You can't mass them easily. They are not in your standard unit mix most of the time, they take forever to build, etc. If you scout a Terran going heavy mech, and throw down an extra robo... you'll have a bunch of immortals after making a huge investment and taking a lot of time.
Where-as, when a Terran scouts Collosi, Carriers, etc, they stop making medivacs and make vikings, 2 at a time. No extra building needed. No serious time investment needed.
One more time, making units that are hard-counters but also extremely massable and cost-effective is bad design.
That being said, combining cybernetics core and robotics facility into one building would make me smile. :D
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On August 12 2010 05:19 Glacierz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 05:13 MangoTango wrote:
What Terrans lack in inability to mass produce an army (Chronoboost/WarpGate or mass Larva morph), they make up for with the ability to produce the RIGHT unit. If the Terran makes the WRONG unit, the Terran loses. This is why unscouted tech switches are so bad for Terran, we can't just warp in 4 Stalkers instantly to scare away the Void Ray, we can only make a couple Marines at a time. The same thing can be said to Zerg as well... I think sc2 still has too many hard counters, which makes scouting much more important than macro/micro mechanics.
Negative. If a Terran is to be prepared for "anything," he will need to have a couple of every tech building, hence the 1/1/1. But this implies he will be unable to make much of any particular unit. If you get Void Ray'd as Zerg, you get a couple extra queens while you wait for Den and then spam 12 Hydras. If I get Void Ray'd as T, I hope my Reactor is on my Port so I can make 2 Vikings, or else I'm in trouble.
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On August 12 2010 05:30 MangoTango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 05:19 Glacierz wrote:On August 12 2010 05:13 MangoTango wrote:
What Terrans lack in inability to mass produce an army (Chronoboost/WarpGate or mass Larva morph), they make up for with the ability to produce the RIGHT unit. If the Terran makes the WRONG unit, the Terran loses. This is why unscouted tech switches are so bad for Terran, we can't just warp in 4 Stalkers instantly to scare away the Void Ray, we can only make a couple Marines at a time. The same thing can be said to Zerg as well... I think sc2 still has too many hard counters, which makes scouting much more important than macro/micro mechanics. Negative. If a Terran is to be prepared for "anything," he will need to have a couple of every tech building, hence the 1/1/1. But this implies he will be unable to make much of any particular unit. If you get Void Ray'd as Zerg, you get a couple extra queens while you wait for Den and then spam 12 Hydras. If I get Void Ray'd as T, I hope my Reactor is on my Port so I can make 2 Vikings, or else I'm in trouble.
Marine/ghost does fine versus Void Rays. Mass marine does fine versus Void Rays.
If Void Rays could pwn you unless you countered them with vikings specifically, I could understand the immense strength, range, bonus damage, and massability of vikings.
And, I am mostly talking about fairly late game. Once you reach two-bases and Terran has every unit producing structure. Mid-game is cool and balanced, as Terran may not have starport fast enough, etc.
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On August 12 2010 05:28 Ndugu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 05:25 Glacierz wrote:On August 12 2010 05:24 Ndugu wrote:On August 12 2010 05:22 Impervious wrote:On August 12 2010 05:16 Ndugu wrote:On August 12 2010 05:13 MangoTango wrote:
What Terrans lack in inability to mass produce an army (Chronoboost/WarpGate or mass Larva morph), they make up for with the ability to produce the RIGHT unit. If the Terran makes the WRONG unit, the Terran loses. This is why unscouted tech switches are so bad for Terran, we can't just warp in 4 Stalkers instantly to scare away the Void Ray, we can only make a couple Marines at a time. This is true, but scouting as Terran isn't exactly a challenge x_X. My main point, which I will refine and eventually make a non blog post, is that Vikings and Hellions are too good and too strong of hard-counters to be so easily massable without any kind of an investment. Moving their upgrades to a specific building will mean they can get made, but wont be SO strong until the Terran makes a bit of an investment. For example, what if Viking +armor damage was added to fusion core and hellion pre-ignitor were moved to engineering bay? Would add a tiny bit more time/investment for a Terran to use those units in their strategy. Well, a lot more investment in the fusion core example. Note that I am saying do this in FUTURE expansions, as it would require a lot of re-balancing to make this work for Wings of Liberty. Preignitor is in the tech lab. Massing hellions takes a reactor. Two different tech labs, requiring 2 different production facilities to work properly. And why should you have to pay for bonus damage? Why should it be the only unit in the game that has to do this? Fighting off the first void ray in TvP can be bad enough (if your opponent can micro well), depending on how fast he rushed to it and how delayed your starport is..... Also, if preignitor was added to the ebay, hellion rushes would be even stronger..... You could get the upgrade while the factory was still building (or time it to start right as the building finishes, if that's a required building to upgrade), put the factory on a reactor made by the barracks, and mass reactor hellions, getting the upgrade really, really quickly..... Yea, kinda dumb idea overall..... Thanks for suggesting a way to make terran even easier to play though Once again, I didn't say "MAKE THIS BALANCE CHANGE TO FIX GAME KK GO". I said in the future, when the game as a whole receives a substantial rebalance as a result of expansions. The ability to rapidly mass units that instantly hard-counter something is bad design. So if your problem is not flexibility but the hard counters in sc2 (which has been discussed since early beta, and blizzard has removed many of these bonus dmg), then I would agree Hard counters exist for a reason. Good examples of hard-counters would be say, immortals. You can't mass them easily. They are not in your standard unit mix most of the time, they take forever to build, etc. If you scout a Terran going heavy mech, and throw down an extra robo... you'll have a bunch of immortals after making a huge investment and taking a lot of time. Where-as, when a Terran scouts Collosi, Carriers, etc, they stop making medivacs and make vikings, 2 at a time. No extra building needed. No serious time investment needed. One more time, making units that are hard-counters but also extremely massable and cost-effective is bad design. That being said, combining cybernetics core and robotics facility into one building would make me smile. :D
I can say the same about Thor hard countering mutas? Takes long to build, requires armory, etc, etc... Wouldn't you solve the problem in a less game changing way by removing hard counters on the massable units then?
I personally think all zerg units are massable late game with the right tech and good injection mechanics... Still don't see why it's an issue
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On August 12 2010 05:35 Glacierz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 05:28 Ndugu wrote:On August 12 2010 05:25 Glacierz wrote:On August 12 2010 05:24 Ndugu wrote:On August 12 2010 05:22 Impervious wrote:On August 12 2010 05:16 Ndugu wrote:On August 12 2010 05:13 MangoTango wrote:
What Terrans lack in inability to mass produce an army (Chronoboost/WarpGate or mass Larva morph), they make up for with the ability to produce the RIGHT unit. If the Terran makes the WRONG unit, the Terran loses. This is why unscouted tech switches are so bad for Terran, we can't just warp in 4 Stalkers instantly to scare away the Void Ray, we can only make a couple Marines at a time. This is true, but scouting as Terran isn't exactly a challenge x_X. My main point, which I will refine and eventually make a non blog post, is that Vikings and Hellions are too good and too strong of hard-counters to be so easily massable without any kind of an investment. Moving their upgrades to a specific building will mean they can get made, but wont be SO strong until the Terran makes a bit of an investment. For example, what if Viking +armor damage was added to fusion core and hellion pre-ignitor were moved to engineering bay? Would add a tiny bit more time/investment for a Terran to use those units in their strategy. Well, a lot more investment in the fusion core example. Note that I am saying do this in FUTURE expansions, as it would require a lot of re-balancing to make this work for Wings of Liberty. Preignitor is in the tech lab. Massing hellions takes a reactor. Two different tech labs, requiring 2 different production facilities to work properly. And why should you have to pay for bonus damage? Why should it be the only unit in the game that has to do this? Fighting off the first void ray in TvP can be bad enough (if your opponent can micro well), depending on how fast he rushed to it and how delayed your starport is..... Also, if preignitor was added to the ebay, hellion rushes would be even stronger..... You could get the upgrade while the factory was still building (or time it to start right as the building finishes, if that's a required building to upgrade), put the factory on a reactor made by the barracks, and mass reactor hellions, getting the upgrade really, really quickly..... Yea, kinda dumb idea overall..... Thanks for suggesting a way to make terran even easier to play though Once again, I didn't say "MAKE THIS BALANCE CHANGE TO FIX GAME KK GO". I said in the future, when the game as a whole receives a substantial rebalance as a result of expansions. The ability to rapidly mass units that instantly hard-counter something is bad design. So if your problem is not flexibility but the hard counters in sc2 (which has been discussed since early beta, and blizzard has removed many of these bonus dmg), then I would agree Hard counters exist for a reason. Good examples of hard-counters would be say, immortals. You can't mass them easily. They are not in your standard unit mix most of the time, they take forever to build, etc. If you scout a Terran going heavy mech, and throw down an extra robo... you'll have a bunch of immortals after making a huge investment and taking a lot of time. Where-as, when a Terran scouts Collosi, Carriers, etc, they stop making medivacs and make vikings, 2 at a time. No extra building needed. No serious time investment needed. One more time, making units that are hard-counters but also extremely massable and cost-effective is bad design. That being said, combining cybernetics core and robotics facility into one building would make me smile. :D I can say the same about Thor hard countering mutas? Takes long to build, requires armory, etc, etc... Wouldn't you solve the problem in a less game changing way by removing hard counters on the massable units then?
Thor's are the good kind of hard-counter.
Thors require a specific building, etc. They are also very slow whereas mutas are fast, etc. They aren't THAT hard of a counter, and they are a well designed.
Wouldn't you solve the problem in a less game changing way by removing hard counters on the massable units then?
I'm confused because that's sorta what I'm saying. Making Hellions weaker versus light and vikings weaker versus... almost every air unit in the game... would certainly accomplish the same thing I'm saying.
I'm just trying to stick within the SCII design by saying that perhaps vikings should require an upgrade, hellion style, before they do bonus damage to armored. Or something. I don't have an exact solution, but I'm pointing out the problem and what I can think to do.
On August 12 2010 05:23 Glacierz wrote:
reactor is there to compensate for the chronoboost and inject larva mechanics... You will obviously fall behind without those since terran production facilities cost so much
And I never said to remove reactors.
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On August 12 2010 05:12 dbizzle wrote:
Why is there never a non biased terran in these kinds of threads? I completely agree with the OP about the tech switch can be done way too quick with so many upgrades per tech lab. On top of this I want to move the emp from ghost to raven, I think that should help things out as well :D
Nobody ever wants their race to get nerfed. Since Blizzard are known to read these forums, unopposed issues are more likely to get fast-tracked than those that are hotly opposed.
There are some unbiased Terran, however.
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I've been shitting on Terran's with my fast phoenix build. It is flexible enough to deal with anything from Terran. You can harass scvs, lift tanks during battles, shoot down their first medevac/raven, get a nice scout in 2 minutes after they wall, hard counters banshee builds. It makes Terran turtle or delays pushes. If you see them going all in with marines you pump stalkers, if its maruaders you pump zealots and pick some up during battle. Phoenix is so nice vs Terran. Vikings arn't that good against it either. If they survive that long they always try it and fail.
The best thing a Terran has is sensor towers.Terrans haven't figured out how imba those are yet. It's got a bigger view than a xelnaga tower. Proxying them is super sweet, I mess around as Terran somtimes and hide them behind scenery like trees or just in weird corners.(You can cut most maps in half with 3 well placed sensor towers and have view of 2/3 of the map) and it makes Terran's mobility so much stronger when you have that much view. I sure hope there arn't Terrans reading this
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No, sorry. You're just terrible. Don't even need a rep to confirm it. You game summary more or less sums that up.
Scouting a tad helps. It's not that simple to completely change from mauraders to mass vikings quickly. It's certainly not quick if you were able to get carriers out by the time you realize it...
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On August 12 2010 05:42 Hawk wrote:
No, sorry. You're just terrible. Don't even need a rep to confirm it. You game summary more or less sums that up.
Scouting a tad helps. It's not that simple to completely change from mauraders to mass vikings quickly. It's certainly not quick if you were able to get carriers out by the time you realize it...
Obviously I was messing around with a terrible build, you angry defensive Terran.
Switching from MMM to vikings is the easiest thing in the world. You have a reactored starport for medivacs...
I had enough of an advantage that it should have won, but the Terran was able to very quickly switch his build to counter what I was doing, and I don't like the design behind that.
Carriers are a totally non-viable unit in PvT as a result.
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United States4126 Posts
I probably don't even need to ask what league you're in from your game summary. This just sounds like a "my strategy didn't work so it must be OP qq" blog.
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On August 12 2010 05:44 Ndugu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 05:42 Hawk wrote:
No, sorry. You're just terrible. Don't even need a rep to confirm it. You game summary more or less sums that up.
Scouting a tad helps. It's not that simple to completely change from mauraders to mass vikings quickly. It's certainly not quick if you were able to get carriers out by the time you realize it...
Obviously I was messing around with a terrible build, you angry defensive Terran. Switching from MMM to vikings is the easiest thing in the world. You have a reactored starport for medivacs... I had enough of an advantage that it should have won, but the Terran was able to very quickly switch his build to counter what I was doing, and I don't like the design behind that. Carriers are a totally non-viable unit in PvT as a result.
Post a rep of this game and a few others, and a link to your profile then? If you can be surprised by viks like that, you did not scout at all. If you have enough $$ for carriers, you have enough for several obs. If you are incapable of scouting to make sure there isn't a counter to your tech switch, you are not good, and you should not be discussing ANY balance issues, let alone making a thread proposing a ridiculous 'solution' with absolutely no hard evidence backing your claims.
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You can't really nerf the vikings too much as they are already getting owned by phoenixes
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LOL if he scanned you and saw a zealot army and he went to hellions to counter who's to say Protoss isn't too flexible because on your next warp cycle you will warp in stalkers.
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Lol I came on this blog to rage so thats why I'm posting.
I'm Diamond. I like to play around with unorthodox builds, hence why I tried Carriers. He didn't scout them until a little bit before he pushed, but was able to have a bunch of vikings because had a reactor starport already for medivacs.
Being able to hard-counters like that should have an investment.
Obviously my specific game was a lost cause, as I was trying something unorthodox in Starcraft II versus Terran... not an option. Ever.
I was proposing a solution that would allow something like surprise Carriers to actually accomplish something.
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On August 12 2010 05:49 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 05:44 Ndugu wrote:On August 12 2010 05:42 Hawk wrote:
No, sorry. You're just terrible. Don't even need a rep to confirm it. You game summary more or less sums that up.
Scouting a tad helps. It's not that simple to completely change from mauraders to mass vikings quickly. It's certainly not quick if you were able to get carriers out by the time you realize it...
Obviously I was messing around with a terrible build, you angry defensive Terran. Switching from MMM to vikings is the easiest thing in the world. You have a reactored starport for medivacs... I had enough of an advantage that it should have won, but the Terran was able to very quickly switch his build to counter what I was doing, and I don't like the design behind that. Carriers are a totally non-viable unit in PvT as a result. Post a rep of this game and a few others, and a link to your profile then? If you can be surprised by viks like that, you did not scout at all. If you have enough $$ for carriers, you have enough for several obs. If you are incapable of scouting to make sure there isn't a counter to your tech switch, you are not good, and you should not be discussing ANY balance issues, let alone making a thread proposing a ridiculous 'solution' with absolutely no hard evidence backing your claims.
Why were you getting carriers if the terran is going bio prodcutions? You should only do that vs. a tank/thor heavy build... You probably made the wrong tech choice to begin with, then you see yourself getting countered easily late game.
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On August 12 2010 05:52 aeoliant wrote:
LOL if he scanned you and saw a zealot army and he went to hellions to counter who's to say Protoss isn't too flexible because on your next warp cycle you will warp in stalkers.
This. Protoss warp makes all gateway units massable with 0 production delay, and stalkers hard counters hellions, I think we can put this debate to rest.
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On August 12 2010 05:44 Ndugu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 05:42 Hawk wrote:
No, sorry. You're just terrible. Don't even need a rep to confirm it. You game summary more or less sums that up.
Scouting a tad helps. It's not that simple to completely change from mauraders to mass vikings quickly. It's certainly not quick if you were able to get carriers out by the time you realize it...
Obviously I was messing around with a terrible build, you angry defensive Terran. Switching from MMM to vikings is the easiest thing in the world. You have a reactored starport for medivacs... I had enough of an advantage that it should have won, but the Terran was able to very quickly switch his build to counter what I was doing, and I don't like the design behind that. Carriers are a totally non-viable unit in PvT as a result.
There you go, you where messing around with a terrible build. Do you want terran to be nerfed so that your terrible build is a good build?
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EPT
