EPTCheesing doesn't make anyone better. - Page 3
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magicbullet
Singapore163 Posts
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sLiniss
United States849 Posts
If you're defending a cheese, its the same thing. You have to use the units you have to deflect the cheese. Once you survive, hopefully you've also macro'd enough to have a better economy. | ||
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NuffZetPand0ra
Denmark18 Posts
On May 05 2010 20:04 magicbullet wrote: Your point is not relevant because most cheesers wants the thrill of the game rather than to improve their skills. To me, that is exactly what makes my point relevant. I cannot force people to stop cheesing, nor would I, as I as well as many others see it as an important part of this game. I am just hoping beyond hope that some of the people who uses the same cheese over and over to beat less skillfull players read this, and maybe start thinking "can I really become better than I am now? how must I do this?". Their score will be reset a couple of times before the game gets released most likely, and in any case, they are not going to carry on their ladders after the beta period. It can win you a game here and now, but in the long term, you will be stuck in the same low league you are in now. Because as i said in OP, cheese doesn't make anyone better. It might help your EARLY GAME micro a tiny bit, but then you meet a storm or a collosus or siege tanks with MMM in front, and where's your godly zealot micro then? The things that made BW such a great game was the variety in the games played. No games played out the same way. This is because people were experimenting with new plans for an entire game, instead of "alright I will proxy him and hope I win, or close my eyes and hope for the best if I don't". Cheese should be a powerfull tool, not a playing style. And if you're treating it as a playing style, your game knowledge will be stuck at the (probably) misserable level it is at now. | ||
Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
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Metagame
8 Posts
On May 05 2010 18:02 Fontong wrote: If the current 'metagame' is to cheese every single game On May 05 2010 18:03 NuffZetPand0ra wrote: This is excactly how a meta-game evolves! Sweet posts! | ||
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NuffZetPand0ra
Denmark18 Posts
On May 05 2010 22:38 Chill wrote: I only read the title but it''s wildly inaccurate and thus doesn't warrant reading further. I realize this from the way the answers have been, but unfortunatly i can't find anywhere to change that :/ Or i would! And who cares if i put a dash or not? That is most likely not the biggest grammar issue on this forum. | ||
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
it's probably the fastest way of increasing multitask and game sense | ||
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Pika Chu
Romania2510 Posts
On May 05 2010 19:32 NuffZetPand0ra wrote: I am not complaining about one or two or ten or even hundreds of cheese games, I am complaining about the meta-game. As mentioned, I have been in plat in every ladder so far, and I've been getting fairly high ranked (2nd plat with around 60 games is my top). The cheese up there is without doubt a lot better constructed, but alas, still cheese. Although it is true there is considerably less cheese up there, I think it is insane that you have to become one of the top dawgs to actually play a macro game. You didn't really understand me. You can get to a macro game if you can resist during the first 15min. You're not playing BGH here. The purpose of competitive gaming is to beat your opponent. Why would someone stay for a 30min game if he can beat his opponent in only 4min? In SC:BW there was no mass decision to play macro games (as most were on icc). The game naturally evolved to that point. Technically because everyone knew most of the standard cheeses, and because there were found build orders that would enable you to resist to a cheese plus giving you a big advantage in economy after. | ||
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Trumpet
United States1936 Posts
Honestly sounds like when people rage over 9pool speed on iccup. Even if someone wanted to 6pool every game of sc2, it's new enough that they could theoretically find some legitimate game plan off of it. There were a couple maps like that in BW where we saw progamers 5pool as a solid bo. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
Your point is not relevant because most cheesers wants the thrill of the game rather than to improve their skills. The thrill? Thats exactly why I dislike cheese in general, its not at all fun to play against. Most of it is scout in time -> win if nor, lose; which is boring as hell. Even for stuff that isn't, in which case it isn't really cheese. it comes down to a little micro fest which can be fun, but if you're facing it all the time it gets old. I mean, what is fun about sneaking cannons up into your opponents base. You didn't really understand me. You can get to a macro game if you can resist during the first 15min. You're not playing BGH here. The purpose of competitive gaming is to beat your opponent. Why would someone stay for a 30min game if he can beat his opponent in only 4min? Yeah, you could get to a macro game, but if you deflect the cheese well you're usually quite far ahead, and could often win alot earlier than 15 minutes in so you're just dragging the game on. Why would someone stay for a longer game? I'd say because short little cheesy games aren't that fun, a few turn into microfests that are relatively fun to play against, but if they get to constant it gets old fast. | ||
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ironchef
Canada1350 Posts
Seriously though, its a viable strategy, whats the difference if the dividends pay off much later(eg fast expo) or very soon. Every strategy has risks and rewards, and takes some ability and understanding to execute properly, relative to anything else. Thats what makes it fun is that many things can happen at various points in the game, and not every game is guaranteed to be tip toeing around each others armies, expand a bunch of times and ram our big veiny armies at each other at 120+ supply. The only time i'd consider anything cheap or pointless is if its overpowered/ an exploit, or uncounterable and will inevitably get removed from the game. In that instance yes no point doing it in beta. Otherwise using viable strategies to win games? Legit. | ||
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ymirheim
Sweden300 Posts
I've been through almost all leauges now except copper since this is my first competitive rts so I started on bronze and has played my way up to top gold and now I am mainly just getting to play people in platinum, have not gotten promoted yet though. And in my experience there are two "layers" if you will of players who will use these all in shenanigans in every single game and it is people in lower/middle bronze and people in lower/middle platinum oddly enough. Actually, the quality of play in gold is way higher than it is in lower platinum. When I play gold players its almost always two base play but as soon as I get to play someone in platinum its always a one base all in or a cheese. I guess mainly because there are a lot of players who cheesed their placement matches and got into platinum with 5-0 and are now continuing on the same route. Its all part of the game so I am not saying that you can't use it but I completely agree with the people saying that this is just wasting everyones time. The guy who does 6rax reaper rush in every game and sits at a 50% win rate with it just because people get caught off guard is not going to ever get good at the game, and I who have to waste my time playing him won't learn much either beyond to get a tad better at microing my scv's. | ||
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5541 Posts
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positron.
634 Posts
Cheese is certainly legit. I enjoy playing against cheese because it is exciting. I do agree people don't improve by cheesing all the time but not everybody plays with the intention of becoming the next TLI winner so we can't really complain about them cheesing. Just keep practicing your solid builds and you will be a very good player. No use trying to convince the cheesers to stop :D | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9110 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
Translation: "Be a man and accept that SC2 is not interesting due to 90% cheese" ... Yes, you can fix your BO - and then, guess what - it became another cheese. The whole cheesing disease is even more powerful in 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 - the bigger teams, the more cheesy it gets. I don't whine about it, it's just that - sure you can scout it, sure you can defend. Sure, you can win. That's not the point! The point is that in doing so, you are obliged to get to the cheesy level of your opponent, and not really develop full complexity games. Not everyone is playing the game just to win, you know. Even top-tier players tend to play on low tech most of the time, and very rarely make use of anything fancy, and if they ever do, it's rather bm abuse of already beaten opponent. Well, that means the game's features are underused, so why are they there in the first place? The whole point of the Beta is to tweak the game, so that its features are being used regularly by all kinds of players, which is very very far from happening right now. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
 ))))))))) | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
this post covers everything very succinctly: On May 05 2010 18:30 Rekrul wrote: no. also, anyone with 'cheese' in their starcraft vernacular is a fking moron on many levels figure out why u should not even try to use it, and maybe one day u can improve | ||
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nibbles
United Kingdom179 Posts
Of course I was never a good BW player and I'm not a good SC2 player, so I'm not sure I can validly argue either way. | ||
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kyarisan
United States347 Posts
with that said, a smart player can certainly make "cheese" legitimate and viable by having such game sense and only being marginally behind at worst while transitioning into the next stage of the game. the problem i think the OP is describing is that many of the people on b.net 2.0 at even the highest public leagues are just bad players who don't know how to make cheese work against another good player, but since everyone is so bad they get a decent win/loss ratio just by doing their "cheesy" builds and never actually grow their own understanding of what's happening on the screen. | ||
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