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Hey, I am writing this blog in frustration over the way SC2B is being played right now. I know that most people visiting TL probably is not the ones who keeps on cheesing, because this forum is more about making new strategies and evolving the game.
But if one person who cheese every single game reads this, and it maybe makes him think twice, I am more than happy, hell I always am!
Now don't get me wrong. This is not a bitter player whining over loosing to cheese. In fact, because everyone cheeses, it has now become standard to expect cheese, and as such, I personally win a lot of these confrontations.
My problem with the cheese is that it is almost impossible to try out mid-late game strategies, as every game ends before the 10 minute mark. I developed a strategy revolving around immortal drops a weeks ago, but still haven't been able to try it on ladder as i almost never even get to finish my robo due to short game times. The beta is about balancing a game, not about trying to win every game with just tier 1 units. Testing a proxy two gate certainly has its values, but it will become a micro fest with tier 1 units, and rarely go on beyond that. I just think it's sad that the entire metagame revolves around the same very few builds, and won't let you diversify ever, as you can be sure you will be cheesed.
This even seems to apply to most skill levels as well. I've been in platinum prior to every reset so far, and this time around i ended up in silver due to offrace, and had to work my way up. And from silver - platinum, 7-9/10 games my opponent tries to do some proxy all in build (unless it's z, no proxies there, only 6 pools and all in one-base roach). I don't know if I am just very unlucky here, but I hope so.
Another thing that annoys me about this, is that there is so much weak cheese out there. Like proxy 9pylon 12 gate into proxy forge, into cannons protecting your proxy (ignoring your own base completely). I mean, while this is good for me, it only goes to show how many players are in platinum just because of a trick they do again and again (when i check match history of players who cheese, they often did the excact same cheese in the four previous games as well), and revolves around their opponent reacting badly, not themselves microing good.
I guess where I am going with this, is that if you want to use cheese to win a higher spot in the ladders than your skill level allows you to get, at least sit down and prepare the cheese, think about every possible counter, and make a follow-up according to that. Then when you loose, adjust your build so it will be stronger in the next game. Don't try the same trick over and over again, if it can get countered hard once, it can get countered hard a hundred times.
But yeah, to sum it all up. I have a problem with all the cheese not because i loose to it, or because it allows some players to be placed higher in the ladders than they would be capable of otherwise. Its the fact that there seems to be so many players out there who do some sort of cheese in 98% of their games just to win, which in turn disables others (me, at least) from exploring the possibilities this game has in store for us.
Doing the same cheese in every game only works for so long! Once you get your name out there and people see your replays, they will know what to expect, and the only thing that will win you games then, is if you have good solid play and game understanding. Not saying pros don't cheese, but they do at least diversify their strategies. The rest of us should strive to do the same.
  
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A cheesing opponent trains me to be more aware of the game. Just take your losses, even if it's cheese, like a man and learn from them.
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If you are doing the same build over and over and dying before the 10 minute mark. You are the one that sucks and need to fix your build order, you cant expect someone to play a NR 20 minute game. You have to fix your BO to make it safe, rather than whine and bitch about it.
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1. scout
2. react
3. win the game
4. stop bitching when you lose to cheese
There, problem solved. If the crappy ones annoy you, get into plat and play with plat cheeses lol, i heard they are much better.
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On May 05 2010 17:25 samachking wrote:
If you are doing the same build over and over and dying before the 10 minute mark. You are the one that sucks and need to fix your build order, you cant expect someone to play a NR 20 minute game. You have to fix your BO to make it safe, rather than whine and bitch about it.
hehe someone didn't read the blog ^^
also @ the blog i agree, i expect cheese half the games now and its just boring when every second game is cheese
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It does make you better in some aspect of the game. Especially micro and decission making.
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Also if everyone is cheesing, then people need to find better counters. If a good counter is developed, then people shouldn't cheese so much, otherwise maybe the game needs to be adjusted.
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Cheese prevents people from winning with ridiculously greedy builds.
Cheese helps figuring out imbalances.
Cheese forces you to learn how to not make stupid micro mistakes.
You should be happy that there is cheese.
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The point is not that counter to cheese exist, it's just that everybody whos playing ladder is cheesing, so we can only get game that last max 8-10 minutes, either due to the cheesing winning te game or the cheesing failing so its over too
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Some people have clearly not read what i wrote. I am not loosing to all this cheese, I just never get to midgame because they will GG before ten minutes. Well, sometimes i loose, but that is to expect. I alter my plan, and play more safe. And while a good standard build is safe, it should not automatically be a counter to the strongest most all-in rush the opposing team is capable off. I have seen players who go forge first inside their own main, and starts building cannons there. While this seems propostorous to any good player, this could actually be a good gameplan right now, as it is a direct reaction to 6-pool, proxy rushes, etc. Thereby you fool a new player into believing that if your cannons can just hold of his initial rush, you will be in a strong position.
However, I refuse to take this kind of drastic meassures to counter cheese, partly because I've never been a fan of static defences in early game (with the exception of FFE in both sc1 and 2), but mostly because that kind of same opening wouldnt be viable if your opponent goes for lets say a FE. I will use one of the solid openers, and then addapt once I scout the cheese. Even if the addaptation is to build a forge and a cannon in the mineral line.
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It makes ya feel better, that's wat it does.
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I totally agree, whether you win or lose it´s just plain boring to play against. But though I agree that there are many cheese-relying suck-ass players out there, there are even more ordinary players. Usually I think I get cheesed every third game or so, which is actually not that bad. It gives you the opportunity to try mid- / lategame builds in two games out of three.
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On May 05 2010 17:39 spinesheath wrote:
Cheese prevents people from winning with ridiculously greedy builds.
Cheese helps figuring out imbalances.
Cheese forces you to learn how to not make stupid micro mistakes.
You should be happy that there is cheese.
Well said. I'd also like to add that:
Cheese makes you learn how to counter cheese and create a generally more well rounded build. Take Idra, for example (minus blistering sands where he refused to cancel the hatch vs 10gate).
That said, who cares about the people who rely on cheese? Relying on cheese will only get you to mid plat at best if you are a competent player otherwise. Once you break the 1400 barrier, your cheeses are going to start getting moldy.
My cheese success beyond 1400 plat is literally like 1/5 or lower. Cheese does bane the deciding factor of wins, especially with lower ranks, though. I do agree that some people have the most tarded cheese attempts in the world as well. SC2B is composted mostly of noobs, what do you expect.
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Well, getting cheesed 1/3rd of the games seems fine as well. But my average game time now is below 10 min, even though i myself only cheese like 1/10th or less of my games. Again, not because i loose.
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Overcome cheese rather than complaining about it, if you really think that they are subtracting from the value for your games.
That, or play with friends you know will play the same strats over and over, thus allowing you to "explore everything the game has to offer". If you don't like cheese, then stay off of the ladder.
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On May 05 2010 17:34 eSen1a wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 17:25 samachking wrote:
If you are doing the same build over and over and dying before the 10 minute mark. You are the one that sucks and need to fix your build order, you cant expect someone to play a NR 20 minute game. You have to fix your BO to make it safe, rather than whine and bitch about it. hehe someone didn't read the blog ^^ also @ the blog i agree, i expect cheese half the games now and its just boring when every second game is cheese
My problem with the cheese is that it is almost impossible to try out mid-late game strategies, as every game ends before the 10 minute mark. I developed a strategy revolving around immortal drops a weeks ago, but still haven't been able to try it on ladder as i almost never even get to finish my robo due to short game times. The beta is about balancing a game, not about trying to win every game with just tier 1 units. Testing a proxy two gate certainly has its values, but it will become a micro fest with tier 1 units, and rarely go on beyond that. I just think it's sad that the entire metagame revolves around the same very few builds, and won't let you diversify ever, as you can be sure you will be cheesed.
Chances are this is your problem, and not the people facing you, I highly doubt 80%+ of your games are against cheese.
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On May 05 2010 17:39 spinesheath wrote:
Cheese prevents people from winning with ridiculously greedy builds.
Cheese helps figuring out imbalances.
Cheese forces you to learn how to not make stupid micro mistakes.
You should be happy that there is cheese.
I am happy there is cheese, and I do know how to react. And while I appreciate people taking their time to learn me this stuff, I would appreciate if they would spread out their efforts to more than early game.
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I've been often blamed for cheesing, while all I did was rather safe builds and either noticed them FEing and punished or managed better than expected with early scouting and harassment (mainly as zerg).
I have yet to do some cannon rushes or anything a like, because I find most of them resulting into boring game where either a) opponent realizes it almost immedially setting you back a lot or b) doesn't even see it coming and results into really short and simple game. There are few exceptions where it could end up in a prolonged micro war and eventually developement of game I guess...
Overall I don't really mind the cheeses, because most of them are blatantly obvious and punishing them for their play might teach them something.
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On May 05 2010 17:47 Fontong wrote:
Overcome cheese rather than complaining about it, if you really think that they are subtracting from the value for your games.
That, or play with friends you know will play the same strats over and over, thus allowing you to "explore everything the game has to offer". If you don't like cheese, then stay off of the ladder.
I play with friends, all the time, but just because one of my friends has an incredible weakness to early game immortal in pvp, does not make that a viable build. You need to play on ladder to find out if a build actually works in real life.
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On May 05 2010 17:49 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 17:47 Fontong wrote:
Overcome cheese rather than complaining about it, if you really think that they are subtracting from the value for your games.
That, or play with friends you know will play the same strats over and over, thus allowing you to "explore everything the game has to offer". If you don't like cheese, then stay off of the ladder. I play with friends, all the time, but just because one of my friends has an incredible weakness to early game immortal in pvp, does not make that a viable build. You need to play on ladder to find out if a build actually works in real life.
I lol'ed =D. Playing with friends is not a real life ;O?
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EPT
