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Hey, I am writing this blog in frustration over the way SC2B is being played right now. I know that most people visiting TL probably is not the ones who keeps on cheesing, because this forum is more about making new strategies and evolving the game.
But if one person who cheese every single game reads this, and it maybe makes him think twice, I am more than happy, hell I always am!
Now don't get me wrong. This is not a bitter player whining over loosing to cheese. In fact, because everyone cheeses, it has now become standard to expect cheese, and as such, I personally win a lot of these confrontations.
My problem with the cheese is that it is almost impossible to try out mid-late game strategies, as every game ends before the 10 minute mark. I developed a strategy revolving around immortal drops a weeks ago, but still haven't been able to try it on ladder as i almost never even get to finish my robo due to short game times. The beta is about balancing a game, not about trying to win every game with just tier 1 units. Testing a proxy two gate certainly has its values, but it will become a micro fest with tier 1 units, and rarely go on beyond that. I just think it's sad that the entire metagame revolves around the same very few builds, and won't let you diversify ever, as you can be sure you will be cheesed.
This even seems to apply to most skill levels as well. I've been in platinum prior to every reset so far, and this time around i ended up in silver due to offrace, and had to work my way up. And from silver - platinum, 7-9/10 games my opponent tries to do some proxy all in build (unless it's z, no proxies there, only 6 pools and all in one-base roach). I don't know if I am just very unlucky here, but I hope so.
Another thing that annoys me about this, is that there is so much weak cheese out there. Like proxy 9pylon 12 gate into proxy forge, into cannons protecting your proxy (ignoring your own base completely). I mean, while this is good for me, it only goes to show how many players are in platinum just because of a trick they do again and again (when i check match history of players who cheese, they often did the excact same cheese in the four previous games as well), and revolves around their opponent reacting badly, not themselves microing good.
I guess where I am going with this, is that if you want to use cheese to win a higher spot in the ladders than your skill level allows you to get, at least sit down and prepare the cheese, think about every possible counter, and make a follow-up according to that. Then when you loose, adjust your build so it will be stronger in the next game. Don't try the same trick over and over again, if it can get countered hard once, it can get countered hard a hundred times.
But yeah, to sum it all up. I have a problem with all the cheese not because i loose to it, or because it allows some players to be placed higher in the ladders than they would be capable of otherwise. Its the fact that there seems to be so many players out there who do some sort of cheese in 98% of their games just to win, which in turn disables others (me, at least) from exploring the possibilities this game has in store for us.
Doing the same cheese in every game only works for so long! Once you get your name out there and people see your replays, they will know what to expect, and the only thing that will win you games then, is if you have good solid play and game understanding. Not saying pros don't cheese, but they do at least diversify their strategies. The rest of us should strive to do the same.
  
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A cheesing opponent trains me to be more aware of the game. Just take your losses, even if it's cheese, like a man and learn from them.
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If you are doing the same build over and over and dying before the 10 minute mark. You are the one that sucks and need to fix your build order, you cant expect someone to play a NR 20 minute game. You have to fix your BO to make it safe, rather than whine and bitch about it.
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1. scout
2. react
3. win the game
4. stop bitching when you lose to cheese
There, problem solved. If the crappy ones annoy you, get into plat and play with plat cheeses lol, i heard they are much better.
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On May 05 2010 17:25 samachking wrote:
If you are doing the same build over and over and dying before the 10 minute mark. You are the one that sucks and need to fix your build order, you cant expect someone to play a NR 20 minute game. You have to fix your BO to make it safe, rather than whine and bitch about it.
hehe someone didn't read the blog ^^
also @ the blog i agree, i expect cheese half the games now and its just boring when every second game is cheese
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It does make you better in some aspect of the game. Especially micro and decission making.
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Also if everyone is cheesing, then people need to find better counters. If a good counter is developed, then people shouldn't cheese so much, otherwise maybe the game needs to be adjusted.
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Cheese prevents people from winning with ridiculously greedy builds.
Cheese helps figuring out imbalances.
Cheese forces you to learn how to not make stupid micro mistakes.
You should be happy that there is cheese.
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The point is not that counter to cheese exist, it's just that everybody whos playing ladder is cheesing, so we can only get game that last max 8-10 minutes, either due to the cheesing winning te game or the cheesing failing so its over too
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Some people have clearly not read what i wrote. I am not loosing to all this cheese, I just never get to midgame because they will GG before ten minutes. Well, sometimes i loose, but that is to expect. I alter my plan, and play more safe. And while a good standard build is safe, it should not automatically be a counter to the strongest most all-in rush the opposing team is capable off. I have seen players who go forge first inside their own main, and starts building cannons there. While this seems propostorous to any good player, this could actually be a good gameplan right now, as it is a direct reaction to 6-pool, proxy rushes, etc. Thereby you fool a new player into believing that if your cannons can just hold of his initial rush, you will be in a strong position.
However, I refuse to take this kind of drastic meassures to counter cheese, partly because I've never been a fan of static defences in early game (with the exception of FFE in both sc1 and 2), but mostly because that kind of same opening wouldnt be viable if your opponent goes for lets say a FE. I will use one of the solid openers, and then addapt once I scout the cheese. Even if the addaptation is to build a forge and a cannon in the mineral line.
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It makes ya feel better, that's wat it does.
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I totally agree, whether you win or lose it´s just plain boring to play against. But though I agree that there are many cheese-relying suck-ass players out there, there are even more ordinary players. Usually I think I get cheesed every third game or so, which is actually not that bad. It gives you the opportunity to try mid- / lategame builds in two games out of three.
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On May 05 2010 17:39 spinesheath wrote:
Cheese prevents people from winning with ridiculously greedy builds.
Cheese helps figuring out imbalances.
Cheese forces you to learn how to not make stupid micro mistakes.
You should be happy that there is cheese.
Well said. I'd also like to add that:
Cheese makes you learn how to counter cheese and create a generally more well rounded build. Take Idra, for example (minus blistering sands where he refused to cancel the hatch vs 10gate).
That said, who cares about the people who rely on cheese? Relying on cheese will only get you to mid plat at best if you are a competent player otherwise. Once you break the 1400 barrier, your cheeses are going to start getting moldy.
My cheese success beyond 1400 plat is literally like 1/5 or lower. Cheese does bane the deciding factor of wins, especially with lower ranks, though. I do agree that some people have the most tarded cheese attempts in the world as well. SC2B is composted mostly of noobs, what do you expect.
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Well, getting cheesed 1/3rd of the games seems fine as well. But my average game time now is below 10 min, even though i myself only cheese like 1/10th or less of my games. Again, not because i loose.
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Overcome cheese rather than complaining about it, if you really think that they are subtracting from the value for your games.
That, or play with friends you know will play the same strats over and over, thus allowing you to "explore everything the game has to offer". If you don't like cheese, then stay off of the ladder.
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On May 05 2010 17:34 eSen1a wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 17:25 samachking wrote:
If you are doing the same build over and over and dying before the 10 minute mark. You are the one that sucks and need to fix your build order, you cant expect someone to play a NR 20 minute game. You have to fix your BO to make it safe, rather than whine and bitch about it. hehe someone didn't read the blog ^^ also @ the blog i agree, i expect cheese half the games now and its just boring when every second game is cheese
My problem with the cheese is that it is almost impossible to try out mid-late game strategies, as every game ends before the 10 minute mark. I developed a strategy revolving around immortal drops a weeks ago, but still haven't been able to try it on ladder as i almost never even get to finish my robo due to short game times. The beta is about balancing a game, not about trying to win every game with just tier 1 units. Testing a proxy two gate certainly has its values, but it will become a micro fest with tier 1 units, and rarely go on beyond that. I just think it's sad that the entire metagame revolves around the same very few builds, and won't let you diversify ever, as you can be sure you will be cheesed.
Chances are this is your problem, and not the people facing you, I highly doubt 80%+ of your games are against cheese.
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On May 05 2010 17:39 spinesheath wrote:
Cheese prevents people from winning with ridiculously greedy builds.
Cheese helps figuring out imbalances.
Cheese forces you to learn how to not make stupid micro mistakes.
You should be happy that there is cheese.
I am happy there is cheese, and I do know how to react. And while I appreciate people taking their time to learn me this stuff, I would appreciate if they would spread out their efforts to more than early game.
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I've been often blamed for cheesing, while all I did was rather safe builds and either noticed them FEing and punished or managed better than expected with early scouting and harassment (mainly as zerg).
I have yet to do some cannon rushes or anything a like, because I find most of them resulting into boring game where either a) opponent realizes it almost immedially setting you back a lot or b) doesn't even see it coming and results into really short and simple game. There are few exceptions where it could end up in a prolonged micro war and eventually developement of game I guess...
Overall I don't really mind the cheeses, because most of them are blatantly obvious and punishing them for their play might teach them something.
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On May 05 2010 17:47 Fontong wrote:
Overcome cheese rather than complaining about it, if you really think that they are subtracting from the value for your games.
That, or play with friends you know will play the same strats over and over, thus allowing you to "explore everything the game has to offer". If you don't like cheese, then stay off of the ladder.
I play with friends, all the time, but just because one of my friends has an incredible weakness to early game immortal in pvp, does not make that a viable build. You need to play on ladder to find out if a build actually works in real life.
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On May 05 2010 17:49 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 17:47 Fontong wrote:
Overcome cheese rather than complaining about it, if you really think that they are subtracting from the value for your games.
That, or play with friends you know will play the same strats over and over, thus allowing you to "explore everything the game has to offer". If you don't like cheese, then stay off of the ladder. I play with friends, all the time, but just because one of my friends has an incredible weakness to early game immortal in pvp, does not make that a viable build. You need to play on ladder to find out if a build actually works in real life.
I lol'ed =D. Playing with friends is not a real life ;O?
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On May 05 2010 17:49 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 17:47 Fontong wrote:
Overcome cheese rather than complaining about it, if you really think that they are subtracting from the value for your games.
That, or play with friends you know will play the same strats over and over, thus allowing you to "explore everything the game has to offer". If you don't like cheese, then stay off of the ladder. I play with friends, all the time, but just because one of my friends has an incredible weakness to early game immortal in pvp, does not make that a viable build. You need to play on ladder to find out if a build actually works in real life.
If the current 'metagame' is to cheese every single game, and your build fails against cheese, then it simply is not a good build. Honestly though, cheese on the ladder really hasn't been too serious for me at all.
I have always been in platinum, and I haven't had problems with cheese at all. Most times that I faced cheese I brought it upon myself or something. I just don't get where you are finding all these cheesers. Perhaps you are defining cheese differently than most people?
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On May 05 2010 17:49 NeonFlare wrote:
I've been often blamed for cheesing, while all I did was rather safe builds and either noticed them FEing and punished or managed better than expected with early scouting and harassment (mainly as zerg).
I have yet to do some cannon rushes or anything a like, because I find most of them resulting into boring game where either a) opponent realizes it almost immedially setting you back a lot or b) doesn't even see it coming and results into really short and simple game. There are few exceptions where it could end up in a prolonged micro war and eventually developement of game I guess...
Overall I don't really mind the cheeses, because most of them are blatantly obvious and punishing them for their play might teach them something.
This is excactly how a meta-game evolves! When toss start rushing zergs who are expoing to fast, the zerg players will alter their build to avoid that vulnerability. But then the toss has to change again, as the push won't work against lets say early roaches. This gives the toss an opening where he takes both the roaches and the FE into consideration, thereby giving him a much stronger opener vs everything. That's how we got the safe builds we have in BW, and that is what makes bw such a good game. That it is reflecting all the kinds of different rush builds that has been used against every race throughout the games lifetime.
The thing is, people don't seem to stop cheesing me, even though it fails most of the time. And while it is nice winning and getting higher in ladder, that is not what it is about for me. I play this game to have fun and to make new startegies. Not to trash the same few weak builds all the fking time. Hence this blog.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
i read your thread title
i didn't read your blog
i know you're an idiot
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On May 05 2010 18:02 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 17:49 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:On May 05 2010 17:47 Fontong wrote:
Overcome cheese rather than complaining about it, if you really think that they are subtracting from the value for your games.
That, or play with friends you know will play the same strats over and over, thus allowing you to "explore everything the game has to offer". If you don't like cheese, then stay off of the ladder. I play with friends, all the time, but just because one of my friends has an incredible weakness to early game immortal in pvp, does not make that a viable build. You need to play on ladder to find out if a build actually works in real life. If the current 'metagame' is to cheese every single game, and your build fails against cheese, then it simply is not a good build. Honestly though, cheese on the ladder really hasn't been too serious for me at all. I have always been in platinum, and I haven't had problems with cheese at all. Most times that I faced cheese I brought it upon myself or something. I just don't get where you are finding all these cheesers. Perhaps you are defining cheese differently than most people?
Well, I have no idea why this is so extreme for me. Might be because i play on EU or something? This however is something i have seen from mid silver rank to semi-high plat (1200+). And by cheese, i mean 6 pools, 9pool into fast roach, proxy 8rax reaper, 2gate proxy, cannon rushes, this kind of stuff. I am not considering any build that leaves you in a strong position afterwards. A PvZ build I've seen used a lot (and sometimes use myself) on Blistering Sands, is the 10pylon/10gate in your nats choke with chronoboosted zealots into the zerg base against a FE. While this might look a bit cheesy as you will have a surprisingly big ammount of zealots, it leaves you with countless posibilities to a follow-up. Here I am talking about all-in do or die cheeses.
On May 05 2010 18:04 Rekrul wrote:
i read your thread title
i didn't read your blog
i know you're an idiot
Not hard to see how you got that many posts ^^
People again, this is not me whining because I am loosing to cheese, don't take it as such. I know I am supposed to adapt my build, I know how to do this, and i honestly don't need you to tell me this. I've been playing bw for 4 years, and i have watched as much e-sports (bw in particular) as anyone, I know what this is about. I am just asking people to make less cheese, as playing the same three games (depending on matchup) again and again is starting to become pretty boring..
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
blogging about it won't help
moving up the ladder and facing better players will
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On May 05 2010 18:20 Rekrul wrote:
blogging about it won't help
moving up the ladder and facing better players will
On my way. That's all?
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Cheese is the most interesting part of SC and SC2. That you might lose at any point in the game keeps it exciting. If every game was 10min no rush broodwar would've died 10 years ago.
Cheese also requires good micro to pull off alot of the time, believe it or not. For example if you 6pool and your opponent scouts it and reacts properly, if you outmicro him you're still going to win. Same with 2gates in base etc. Cheese is actually a good way for a far superior player to beat someone they know they're better than since bringing it down to a micro battle they can't possibly lose is as safe as it can be. I don't think i've ever lost to being cheesed by a worse player in sc2 yet, actually. It's quite easy to defend when poorly microed and well scouted.
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I've only gotten cheesed twice, 6 pool and proxy gayes.
Yesterday i played against a FE Zerg and i simply went for my expansion aswell and i won a fun and entertaining macro game. Cheesing is gay, you won't improve and you will get falsely ranked. I don't care about losing in standard games, just proves i don't belong in that division and i can get placed in a lower one where i can either roflstomp newbs (which is pretty fun imo) or get a worthy opponent.
People need to stop obsessing over winning and care more about having fun, it's beta right now and you won't keep your stats when the game gets officially released.
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I like to cheese. It's fun and people who rage when get cheesed simply make me feel better about me  .
If you can't adapt to cheeses and fall to them, you're just a robot who's got some standard builds in mind and has no real understanding of the game.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On May 05 2010 18:21 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 18:20 Rekrul wrote:
blogging about it won't help
moving up the ladder and facing better players will On my way. That's all?
no. also, anyone with 'cheese' in their starcraft vernacular is a fking moron on many levels
figure out why u should not even try to use it, and maybe one day u can improve
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On May 05 2010 18:23 faction123 wrote:
Cheese is the most interesting part of SC and SC2. That you might lose at any point in the game keeps it exciting. If every game was 10min no rush broodwar would've died 10 years ago.
Cheese also requires good micro to pull off alot of the time, believe it or not. For example if you 6pool and your opponent scouts it and reacts properly, if you outmicro him you're still going to win. Same with 2gates in base etc. Cheese is actually a good way for a far superior player to beat someone they know they're better than since bringing it down to a micro battle they can't possibly lose is as safe as it can be. I don't think i've ever lost to being cheesed by a worse player in sc2 yet, actually. It's quite easy to defend when poorly microed and well scouted.
I would not agree that it is the most interesting part, but yeah, it is an important aspect.! But so is addapting your cheese if it fails all the time. I've even seen players with better micro than me loose to me because their cheese simply put is not strong enough. I mentioned a good example of this in the OP, where the protoss opponent builds one proxy gates, and defends it with a forge and cannons. Not inbase proxy with offensive cannons, simply cannons to defend their gate, forge and two pylons in the middle of the map.
But yeah, the funniest thing is then you look in their latest five games, and they have 3 wins one loss with the exact same build. However, you will only die to this if you fail to react properly what so ever. But he keeps on doing it, because when he meets good players, he will be demoted and play bad players who fall for this, and then his e-pen starts growing again. But yeah, as a previous poster mentioned - this game is in beta, all stats are being reset over and over. The fact that you can cheese bad players and get into a fairly high gold or something, does not make you a good player. It makes you a one-trick pony who are reliant on that sole thing to win them games. It is of these players of whom I ask: Please start playing a real game once in a while. You might loose, and you might not be as high in the ladders as you were with the cheese, but at least you will see yourself improving.
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On May 05 2010 18:30 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 18:21 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:On May 05 2010 18:20 Rekrul wrote:
blogging about it won't help
moving up the ladder and facing better players will On my way. That's all? no. also, anyone with 'cheese' in their starcraft vernacular is a fking moron on many levels figure out why u should not even try to use it, and maybe one day u can improve
Because every strategy is as good as the rest? While i see your point, I will hold on to my oppinion that a build not relying on you performing good, but your opponent reacting bad, is a bad build. Should I just find and replace "cheese" with "early-game all-in"? Because that is a term that you cannot deny. I just happen to call it cheese like everyone else (according to you there is a hell of a lot morons out there, including all the notable names). And i can't see why using the term cheese (like any other starcraft term, that be early game, natural or noob) would stop you improving? And lastly, i fail to see why the word in itself has anything to do with the subject at hand.
And seriously, what is up with all the trolling? I am keeping a polite and sober tone here, is it too much to expect of you that you do the same?
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Cheesing is legit.
And it does improve players.
Cry more.panda tears.
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Again, please read more than the title before answering. I have not once whined about loosing to cheese, and you will never hear me do that (that is for the few select on skype to enjoy). I am whining about the fact that it seems impossible to test out any strategy you have in mind beyond "oh right, i'm gonna throw down two gates and build zealots, cuz that pool sure is early". Sair reaver would never have been invented if every game came down to 6pool or proxy 9/10 gate.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
yeah man, every game in sc2 ppl r cheesing
good thing sc1 players were smarter than sc2 players
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No man, people won't try to cheese often at higher levels only because there is a high chance that it will fail and put you at disadvantage. That's all about it.
But at lower levels with people who, i repeat, CANNOT ADAPT THE PLAYSTYLE to counter their opponent cheese is very effective. Why? Because people at that level think before of the game of what they want to do "man, i'm totally going to pwn this noob with my uber new strategy battlecruisers and hellions! first i'm going to lay down some rax, then some supply, then gas and then factory and then.... omgwtfbbq zealots in my base! GTFO you're spoiling my strategy goddamn noob!!!!!11one"
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On May 05 2010 19:09 Rekrul wrote:
yeah man, every game in sc2 ppl r cheesing
good thing sc1 players were smarter than sc2 players
A lot of the best foreign BW players have moved to SC2. That makes them stupid?
I didnt really feel my brain evaporate when i made the switch. Yes, i have played BW for long, and read these forums as well, and therefore i know a lot of people around here don't really read what's written before trolling. I just hoped that you would at least make an attempt to grasp what the problem is here before starting to argue too much.
PLEASE STOP ASSUMING THAT I WHINE BECAUSE I LOOSE TO CHEESE!! There, now maybe everyone will see it?
The big difference between BW and WoL is that BW has been there for many many years, and the perfect builds have been found, almost everything has been tried already. Ofcourse you can come up with something new on a very rare occasion, but most of the time it is just a slight variations on an existing build, because all of those are so well perfected.
The chance we have in WoL is to start this all again. Make your own builds, find out what counters them, finding out what counters the counters etc. This is a curiousity that can't be satisfied just by looking at korean pros, but requires you to be creative, adaptive and intelligent. I have not yet decided whether I like BW or WoL better (and i probably never will), as they both have their charms and flaws. But to perfectly honest with you, i think you would complaint as well if the majority of games until like A- you just kept on facing the same cheese again and again and again.
But really, it doesn't sound like you're playing SC2 at all, and as such you are not one of those I am trying to adress with this blog. You are free to not post in here, and if everything you can post is bitterness over the fact that the game is moving on and you are not, I really think you should grab that opportunity, as that is not what's discussed here.
Try in the comments to the current poll instead, I am sure people will agree more.
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On May 05 2010 17:40 CynanMachae wrote:
The point is not that counter to cheese exist, it's just that everybody whos playing ladder is cheesing, so we can only get game that last max 8-10 minutes, either due to the cheesing winning te game or the cheesing failing so its over too
No way... My shortest match was 14 minutes. I just scout, out-micro them (since most peopl aren't that good at micro), expand, macro up and crush them. 6 pools are easy to defend against if you scout them because you'll probably be able to get a zealot up and if you pull like 6 probes you'll be fine.
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On May 05 2010 19:25 Pika Chu wrote:
No man, people won't try to cheese often at higher levels only because there is a high chance that it will fail and put you at disadvantage. That's all about it.
But at lower levels with people who, i repeat, CANNOT ADAPT THE PLAYSTYLE to counter their opponent cheese is very effective. Why? Because people at that level think before of the game of what they want to do "man, i'm totally going to pwn this noob with my uber new strategy battlecruisers and hellions! first i'm going to lay down some rax, then some supply, then gas and then factory and then.... omgwtfbbq zealots in my base! GTFO you're spoiling my strategy goddamn noob!!!!!11one"
I am not complaining about one or two or ten or even hundreds of cheese games, I am complaining about the meta-game. As mentioned, I have been in plat in every ladder so far, and I've been getting fairly high ranked (2nd plat with around 60 games is my top). The cheese up there is without doubt a lot better constructed, but alas, still cheese. Although it is true there is considerably less cheese up there, I think it is insane that you have to become one of the top dawgs to actually play a macro game.
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On May 05 2010 19:28 madnessman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 17:40 CynanMachae wrote:
The point is not that counter to cheese exist, it's just that everybody whos playing ladder is cheesing, so we can only get game that last max 8-10 minutes, either due to the cheesing winning te game or the cheesing failing so its over too No way... My shortest match was 14 minutes. I just scout, out-micro them (since most peopl aren't that good at micro), expand, macro up and crush them. 6 pools are easy to defend against if you scout them because you'll probably be able to get a zealot up and if you pull like 6 probes you'll be fine.
The game is IMO over after you out-micro his cheese, and are in a much better situation in econ, tech and army. No matter how long the actual duration is. Trying out a strategy on someone who failed a 6-pool is not going to show its viability.
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Your point is not relevant because most cheesers wants the thrill of the game rather than to improve their skills.
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Cheesing requires a lot more short term, intensive micro/macro since you have to constantly be aware of where your units are and your economy.
If you're defending a cheese, its the same thing. You have to use the units you have to deflect the cheese. Once you survive, hopefully you've also macro'd enough to have a better economy.
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On May 05 2010 20:04 magicbullet wrote:
Your point is not relevant because most cheesers wants the thrill of the game rather than to improve their skills.
To me, that is exactly what makes my point relevant. I cannot force people to stop cheesing, nor would I, as I as well as many others see it as an important part of this game. I am just hoping beyond hope that some of the people who uses the same cheese over and over to beat less skillfull players read this, and maybe start thinking "can I really become better than I am now? how must I do this?".
Their score will be reset a couple of times before the game gets released most likely, and in any case, they are not going to carry on their ladders after the beta period. It can win you a game here and now, but in the long term, you will be stuck in the same low league you are in now. Because as i said in OP, cheese doesn't make anyone better. It might help your EARLY GAME micro a tiny bit, but then you meet a storm or a collosus or siege tanks with MMM in front, and where's your godly zealot micro then?
The things that made BW such a great game was the variety in the games played. No games played out the same way. This is because people were experimenting with new plans for an entire game, instead of "alright I will proxy him and hope I win, or close my eyes and hope for the best if I don't".
Cheese should be a powerfull tool, not a playing style. And if you're treating it as a playing style, your game knowledge will be stuck at the (probably) misserable level it is at now.
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Calgary25981 Posts
I only read the title but it''s wildly inaccurate and thus doesn't warrant reading further.
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On May 05 2010 18:02 Fontong wrote:
If the current 'metagame' is to cheese every single game
On May 05 2010 18:03 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:
This is excactly how a meta-game evolves!
Sweet posts!
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On May 05 2010 22:38 Chill wrote:
I only read the title but it''s wildly inaccurate and thus doesn't warrant reading further.
I realize this from the way the answers have been, but unfortunatly i can't find anywhere to change that :/ Or i would!
On May 05 2010 22:41 Metagame wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 18:02 Fontong wrote:
If the current 'metagame' is to cheese every single game Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 18:03 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:
This is excactly how a meta-game evolves! Sweet posts!
And who cares if i put a dash or not? That is most likely not the biggest grammar issue on this forum.
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cheese not only helps the cheeser but the defender
it's probably the fastest way of increasing multitask and game sense
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On May 05 2010 19:32 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 19:25 Pika Chu wrote:
No man, people won't try to cheese often at higher levels only because there is a high chance that it will fail and put you at disadvantage. That's all about it.
But at lower levels with people who, i repeat, CANNOT ADAPT THE PLAYSTYLE to counter their opponent cheese is very effective. Why? Because people at that level think before of the game of what they want to do "man, i'm totally going to pwn this noob with my uber new strategy battlecruisers and hellions! first i'm going to lay down some rax, then some supply, then gas and then factory and then.... omgwtfbbq zealots in my base! GTFO you're spoiling my strategy goddamn noob!!!!!11one" I am not complaining about one or two or ten or even hundreds of cheese games, I am complaining about the meta-game. As mentioned, I have been in plat in every ladder so far, and I've been getting fairly high ranked (2nd plat with around 60 games is my top). The cheese up there is without doubt a lot better constructed, but alas, still cheese. Although it is true there is considerably less cheese up there, I think it is insane that you have to become one of the top dawgs to actually play a macro game.
You didn't really understand me. You can get to a macro game if you can resist during the first 15min. You're not playing BGH here.
The purpose of competitive gaming is to beat your opponent. Why would someone stay for a 30min game if he can beat his opponent in only 4min?
In SC:BW there was no mass decision to play macro games (as most were on icc). The game naturally evolved to that point. Technically because everyone knew most of the standard cheeses, and because there were found build orders that would enable you to resist to a cheese plus giving you a big advantage in economy after.
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Another huge problem with this idea of cheesing is that the game is so new, how are you so sure some of these rushes you're calling cheese don't have viable followups into a solid midgame?
Honestly sounds like when people rage over 9pool speed on iccup. Even if someone wanted to 6pool every game of sc2, it's new enough that they could theoretically find some legitimate game plan off of it. There were a couple maps like that in BW where we saw progamers 5pool as a solid bo.
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Your point is not relevant because most cheesers wants the thrill of the game rather than to improve their skills.
The thrill? Thats exactly why I dislike cheese in general, its not at all fun to play against. Most of it is scout in time -> win if nor, lose; which is boring as hell. Even for stuff that isn't, in which case it isn't really cheese. it comes down to a little micro fest which can be fun, but if you're facing it all the time it gets old. I mean, what is fun about sneaking cannons up into your opponents base.
You didn't really understand me. You can get to a macro game if you can resist during the first 15min. You're not playing BGH here.
The purpose of competitive gaming is to beat your opponent. Why would someone stay for a 30min game if he can beat his opponent in only 4min?
Yeah, you could get to a macro game, but if you deflect the cheese well you're usually quite far ahead, and could often win alot earlier than 15 minutes in so you're just dragging the game on. Why would someone stay for a longer game? I'd say because short little cheesy games aren't that fun, a few turn into microfests that are relatively fun to play against, but if they get to constant it gets old fast.
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Next up: no rush 20 or you're lame.
Seriously though, its a viable strategy, whats the difference if the dividends pay off much later(eg fast expo) or very soon. Every strategy has risks and rewards, and takes some ability and understanding to execute properly, relative to anything else.
Thats what makes it fun is that many things can happen at various points in the game, and not every game is guaranteed to be tip toeing around each others armies, expand a bunch of times and ram our big veiny armies at each other at 120+ supply.
The only time i'd consider anything cheap or pointless is if its overpowered/ an exploit, or uncounterable and will inevitably get removed from the game. In that instance yes no point doing it in beta. Otherwise using viable strategies to win games? Legit.
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Yeah it is terribly annoying with all these people who seem to rely on cheese/allins to win every single game. It is annoying not when it works and you die to it but due to the fact that those of us who are aiming to learn to play the game beyond the five minute mark actually want to practice playing the game beyond the double proxy gate or the all in 6 rax reaper rush.
I've been through almost all leauges now except copper since this is my first competitive rts so I started on bronze and has played my way up to top gold and now I am mainly just getting to play people in platinum, have not gotten promoted yet though. And in my experience there are two "layers" if you will of players who will use these all in shenanigans in every single game and it is people in lower/middle bronze and people in lower/middle platinum oddly enough.
Actually, the quality of play in gold is way higher than it is in lower platinum. When I play gold players its almost always two base play but as soon as I get to play someone in platinum its always a one base all in or a cheese. I guess mainly because there are a lot of players who cheesed their placement matches and got into platinum with 5-0 and are now continuing on the same route.
Its all part of the game so I am not saying that you can't use it but I completely agree with the people saying that this is just wasting everyones time. The guy who does 6rax reaper rush in every game and sits at a 50% win rate with it just because people get caught off guard is not going to ever get good at the game, and I who have to waste my time playing him won't learn much either beyond to get a tad better at microing my scv's.
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I got cheesed by a prominent TL member.....wasnt happy lol
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It's funny how lots of people did not even read the OP and assumed that this is some baby who cried about losing to cheese and bashed him as such. The OP simply wants to play solid builds against solid builds and he does not get that chance often because a lot of people are cheesing.
Cheese is certainly legit. I enjoy playing against cheese because it is exciting. I do agree people don't improve by cheesing all the time but not everybody plays with the intention of becoming the next TLI winner so we can't really complain about them cheesing.
Just keep practicing your solid builds and you will be a very good player. No use trying to convince the cheesers to stop :D
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Writing blogs about not liking cheese doesn't make anyone better either. It's just part of the game and it's not ever going to stop so just learn to pwn it.
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Even great players often lose to cheese and whine about it, so what's with the whole "be a man and take your losses" attitude.
Translation: "Be a man and accept that SC2 is not interesting due to 90% cheese" ...
Yes, you can fix your BO - and then, guess what - it became another cheese. The whole cheesing disease is even more powerful in 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 - the bigger teams, the more cheesy it gets.
I don't whine about it, it's just that - sure you can scout it, sure you can defend. Sure, you can win. That's not the point! The point is that in doing so, you are obliged to get to the cheesy level of your opponent, and not really develop full complexity games. Not everyone is playing the game just to win, you know.
Even top-tier players tend to play on low tech most of the time, and very rarely make use of anything fancy, and if they ever do, it's rather bm abuse of already beaten opponent. Well, that means the game's features are underused, so why are they there in the first place? The whole point of the Beta is to tweak the game, so that its features are being used regularly by all kinds of players, which is very very far from happening right now.
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you are one angry little boy. take it easy- horror gates every game )))))))))
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you bumped a noobie blog lol
this post covers everything very succinctly:
On May 05 2010 18:30 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 18:21 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:On May 05 2010 18:20 Rekrul wrote:
blogging about it won't help
moving up the ladder and facing better players will On my way. That's all? no. also, anyone with 'cheese' in their starcraft vernacular is a fking moron on many levels figure out why u should not even try to use it, and maybe one day u can improve
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to be honest I think the OP has a point. I mean the title isn't correct really, but I just feel like if I lose to a cheese/all-in, I haven't learnt much about how my build was wrong or whatever, but more that I need to scout more, make better decisions, work on my micro, or something, when I would prefer to work on my mechanics. It also doesn't help my opponent much because I doubt that winning with his cheese has taught him very much.
Of course I was never a good BW player and I'm not a good SC2 player, so I'm not sure I can validly argue either way.
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i think you need to be a good player to use "cheese" effectively, and you can't work your way up to being a good player by using "cheesey" builds effectively because you won't have the game sense to know how to adapt your strategy if and once the effect of your build is weakening.
with that said, a smart player can certainly make "cheese" legitimate and viable by having such game sense and only being marginally behind at worst while transitioning into the next stage of the game.
the problem i think the OP is describing is that many of the people on b.net 2.0 at even the highest public leagues are just bad players who don't know how to make cheese work against another good player, but since everyone is so bad they get a decent win/loss ratio just by doing their "cheesy" builds and never actually grow their own understanding of what's happening on the screen.
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EPT
