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On May 05 2010 17:49 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 17:47 Fontong wrote:
Overcome cheese rather than complaining about it, if you really think that they are subtracting from the value for your games.
That, or play with friends you know will play the same strats over and over, thus allowing you to "explore everything the game has to offer". If you don't like cheese, then stay off of the ladder. I play with friends, all the time, but just because one of my friends has an incredible weakness to early game immortal in pvp, does not make that a viable build. You need to play on ladder to find out if a build actually works in real life.
If the current 'metagame' is to cheese every single game, and your build fails against cheese, then it simply is not a good build. Honestly though, cheese on the ladder really hasn't been too serious for me at all.
I have always been in platinum, and I haven't had problems with cheese at all. Most times that I faced cheese I brought it upon myself or something. I just don't get where you are finding all these cheesers. Perhaps you are defining cheese differently than most people?
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On May 05 2010 17:49 NeonFlare wrote:
I've been often blamed for cheesing, while all I did was rather safe builds and either noticed them FEing and punished or managed better than expected with early scouting and harassment (mainly as zerg).
I have yet to do some cannon rushes or anything a like, because I find most of them resulting into boring game where either a) opponent realizes it almost immedially setting you back a lot or b) doesn't even see it coming and results into really short and simple game. There are few exceptions where it could end up in a prolonged micro war and eventually developement of game I guess...
Overall I don't really mind the cheeses, because most of them are blatantly obvious and punishing them for their play might teach them something.
This is excactly how a meta-game evolves! When toss start rushing zergs who are expoing to fast, the zerg players will alter their build to avoid that vulnerability. But then the toss has to change again, as the push won't work against lets say early roaches. This gives the toss an opening where he takes both the roaches and the FE into consideration, thereby giving him a much stronger opener vs everything. That's how we got the safe builds we have in BW, and that is what makes bw such a good game. That it is reflecting all the kinds of different rush builds that has been used against every race throughout the games lifetime.
The thing is, people don't seem to stop cheesing me, even though it fails most of the time. And while it is nice winning and getting higher in ladder, that is not what it is about for me. I play this game to have fun and to make new startegies. Not to trash the same few weak builds all the fking time. Hence this blog.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
i read your thread title
i didn't read your blog
i know you're an idiot
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On May 05 2010 18:02 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 17:49 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:On May 05 2010 17:47 Fontong wrote:
Overcome cheese rather than complaining about it, if you really think that they are subtracting from the value for your games.
That, or play with friends you know will play the same strats over and over, thus allowing you to "explore everything the game has to offer". If you don't like cheese, then stay off of the ladder. I play with friends, all the time, but just because one of my friends has an incredible weakness to early game immortal in pvp, does not make that a viable build. You need to play on ladder to find out if a build actually works in real life. If the current 'metagame' is to cheese every single game, and your build fails against cheese, then it simply is not a good build. Honestly though, cheese on the ladder really hasn't been too serious for me at all. I have always been in platinum, and I haven't had problems with cheese at all. Most times that I faced cheese I brought it upon myself or something. I just don't get where you are finding all these cheesers. Perhaps you are defining cheese differently than most people?
Well, I have no idea why this is so extreme for me. Might be because i play on EU or something? This however is something i have seen from mid silver rank to semi-high plat (1200+). And by cheese, i mean 6 pools, 9pool into fast roach, proxy 8rax reaper, 2gate proxy, cannon rushes, this kind of stuff. I am not considering any build that leaves you in a strong position afterwards. A PvZ build I've seen used a lot (and sometimes use myself) on Blistering Sands, is the 10pylon/10gate in your nats choke with chronoboosted zealots into the zerg base against a FE. While this might look a bit cheesy as you will have a surprisingly big ammount of zealots, it leaves you with countless posibilities to a follow-up. Here I am talking about all-in do or die cheeses.
On May 05 2010 18:04 Rekrul wrote:
i read your thread title
i didn't read your blog
i know you're an idiot
Not hard to see how you got that many posts ^^
People again, this is not me whining because I am loosing to cheese, don't take it as such. I know I am supposed to adapt my build, I know how to do this, and i honestly don't need you to tell me this. I've been playing bw for 4 years, and i have watched as much e-sports (bw in particular) as anyone, I know what this is about. I am just asking people to make less cheese, as playing the same three games (depending on matchup) again and again is starting to become pretty boring..
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
blogging about it won't help
moving up the ladder and facing better players will
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On May 05 2010 18:20 Rekrul wrote:
blogging about it won't help
moving up the ladder and facing better players will
On my way. That's all?
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Cheese is the most interesting part of SC and SC2. That you might lose at any point in the game keeps it exciting. If every game was 10min no rush broodwar would've died 10 years ago.
Cheese also requires good micro to pull off alot of the time, believe it or not. For example if you 6pool and your opponent scouts it and reacts properly, if you outmicro him you're still going to win. Same with 2gates in base etc. Cheese is actually a good way for a far superior player to beat someone they know they're better than since bringing it down to a micro battle they can't possibly lose is as safe as it can be. I don't think i've ever lost to being cheesed by a worse player in sc2 yet, actually. It's quite easy to defend when poorly microed and well scouted.
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I've only gotten cheesed twice, 6 pool and proxy gayes.
Yesterday i played against a FE Zerg and i simply went for my expansion aswell and i won a fun and entertaining macro game. Cheesing is gay, you won't improve and you will get falsely ranked. I don't care about losing in standard games, just proves i don't belong in that division and i can get placed in a lower one where i can either roflstomp newbs (which is pretty fun imo) or get a worthy opponent.
People need to stop obsessing over winning and care more about having fun, it's beta right now and you won't keep your stats when the game gets officially released.
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I like to cheese. It's fun and people who rage when get cheesed simply make me feel better about me  .
If you can't adapt to cheeses and fall to them, you're just a robot who's got some standard builds in mind and has no real understanding of the game.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On May 05 2010 18:21 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 18:20 Rekrul wrote:
blogging about it won't help
moving up the ladder and facing better players will On my way. That's all?
no. also, anyone with 'cheese' in their starcraft vernacular is a fking moron on many levels
figure out why u should not even try to use it, and maybe one day u can improve
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On May 05 2010 18:23 faction123 wrote:
Cheese is the most interesting part of SC and SC2. That you might lose at any point in the game keeps it exciting. If every game was 10min no rush broodwar would've died 10 years ago.
Cheese also requires good micro to pull off alot of the time, believe it or not. For example if you 6pool and your opponent scouts it and reacts properly, if you outmicro him you're still going to win. Same with 2gates in base etc. Cheese is actually a good way for a far superior player to beat someone they know they're better than since bringing it down to a micro battle they can't possibly lose is as safe as it can be. I don't think i've ever lost to being cheesed by a worse player in sc2 yet, actually. It's quite easy to defend when poorly microed and well scouted.
I would not agree that it is the most interesting part, but yeah, it is an important aspect.! But so is addapting your cheese if it fails all the time. I've even seen players with better micro than me loose to me because their cheese simply put is not strong enough. I mentioned a good example of this in the OP, where the protoss opponent builds one proxy gates, and defends it with a forge and cannons. Not inbase proxy with offensive cannons, simply cannons to defend their gate, forge and two pylons in the middle of the map.
But yeah, the funniest thing is then you look in their latest five games, and they have 3 wins one loss with the exact same build. However, you will only die to this if you fail to react properly what so ever. But he keeps on doing it, because when he meets good players, he will be demoted and play bad players who fall for this, and then his e-pen starts growing again. But yeah, as a previous poster mentioned - this game is in beta, all stats are being reset over and over. The fact that you can cheese bad players and get into a fairly high gold or something, does not make you a good player. It makes you a one-trick pony who are reliant on that sole thing to win them games. It is of these players of whom I ask: Please start playing a real game once in a while. You might loose, and you might not be as high in the ladders as you were with the cheese, but at least you will see yourself improving.
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On May 05 2010 18:30 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 18:21 NuffZetPand0ra wrote:On May 05 2010 18:20 Rekrul wrote:
blogging about it won't help
moving up the ladder and facing better players will On my way. That's all? no. also, anyone with 'cheese' in their starcraft vernacular is a fking moron on many levels figure out why u should not even try to use it, and maybe one day u can improve
Because every strategy is as good as the rest? While i see your point, I will hold on to my oppinion that a build not relying on you performing good, but your opponent reacting bad, is a bad build. Should I just find and replace "cheese" with "early-game all-in"? Because that is a term that you cannot deny. I just happen to call it cheese like everyone else (according to you there is a hell of a lot morons out there, including all the notable names). And i can't see why using the term cheese (like any other starcraft term, that be early game, natural or noob) would stop you improving? And lastly, i fail to see why the word in itself has anything to do with the subject at hand.
And seriously, what is up with all the trolling? I am keeping a polite and sober tone here, is it too much to expect of you that you do the same?
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Cheesing is legit.
And it does improve players.
Cry more.panda tears.
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Again, please read more than the title before answering. I have not once whined about loosing to cheese, and you will never hear me do that (that is for the few select on skype to enjoy). I am whining about the fact that it seems impossible to test out any strategy you have in mind beyond "oh right, i'm gonna throw down two gates and build zealots, cuz that pool sure is early". Sair reaver would never have been invented if every game came down to 6pool or proxy 9/10 gate.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
yeah man, every game in sc2 ppl r cheesing
good thing sc1 players were smarter than sc2 players
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No man, people won't try to cheese often at higher levels only because there is a high chance that it will fail and put you at disadvantage. That's all about it.
But at lower levels with people who, i repeat, CANNOT ADAPT THE PLAYSTYLE to counter their opponent cheese is very effective. Why? Because people at that level think before of the game of what they want to do "man, i'm totally going to pwn this noob with my uber new strategy battlecruisers and hellions! first i'm going to lay down some rax, then some supply, then gas and then factory and then.... omgwtfbbq zealots in my base! GTFO you're spoiling my strategy goddamn noob!!!!!11one"
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On May 05 2010 19:09 Rekrul wrote:
yeah man, every game in sc2 ppl r cheesing
good thing sc1 players were smarter than sc2 players
A lot of the best foreign BW players have moved to SC2. That makes them stupid?
I didnt really feel my brain evaporate when i made the switch. Yes, i have played BW for long, and read these forums as well, and therefore i know a lot of people around here don't really read what's written before trolling. I just hoped that you would at least make an attempt to grasp what the problem is here before starting to argue too much.
PLEASE STOP ASSUMING THAT I WHINE BECAUSE I LOOSE TO CHEESE!! There, now maybe everyone will see it?
The big difference between BW and WoL is that BW has been there for many many years, and the perfect builds have been found, almost everything has been tried already. Ofcourse you can come up with something new on a very rare occasion, but most of the time it is just a slight variations on an existing build, because all of those are so well perfected.
The chance we have in WoL is to start this all again. Make your own builds, find out what counters them, finding out what counters the counters etc. This is a curiousity that can't be satisfied just by looking at korean pros, but requires you to be creative, adaptive and intelligent. I have not yet decided whether I like BW or WoL better (and i probably never will), as they both have their charms and flaws. But to perfectly honest with you, i think you would complaint as well if the majority of games until like A- you just kept on facing the same cheese again and again and again.
But really, it doesn't sound like you're playing SC2 at all, and as such you are not one of those I am trying to adress with this blog. You are free to not post in here, and if everything you can post is bitterness over the fact that the game is moving on and you are not, I really think you should grab that opportunity, as that is not what's discussed here.
Try in the comments to the current poll instead, I am sure people will agree more.
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On May 05 2010 17:40 CynanMachae wrote:
The point is not that counter to cheese exist, it's just that everybody whos playing ladder is cheesing, so we can only get game that last max 8-10 minutes, either due to the cheesing winning te game or the cheesing failing so its over too
No way... My shortest match was 14 minutes. I just scout, out-micro them (since most peopl aren't that good at micro), expand, macro up and crush them. 6 pools are easy to defend against if you scout them because you'll probably be able to get a zealot up and if you pull like 6 probes you'll be fine.
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On May 05 2010 19:25 Pika Chu wrote:
No man, people won't try to cheese often at higher levels only because there is a high chance that it will fail and put you at disadvantage. That's all about it.
But at lower levels with people who, i repeat, CANNOT ADAPT THE PLAYSTYLE to counter their opponent cheese is very effective. Why? Because people at that level think before of the game of what they want to do "man, i'm totally going to pwn this noob with my uber new strategy battlecruisers and hellions! first i'm going to lay down some rax, then some supply, then gas and then factory and then.... omgwtfbbq zealots in my base! GTFO you're spoiling my strategy goddamn noob!!!!!11one"
I am not complaining about one or two or ten or even hundreds of cheese games, I am complaining about the meta-game. As mentioned, I have been in plat in every ladder so far, and I've been getting fairly high ranked (2nd plat with around 60 games is my top). The cheese up there is without doubt a lot better constructed, but alas, still cheese. Although it is true there is considerably less cheese up there, I think it is insane that you have to become one of the top dawgs to actually play a macro game.
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On May 05 2010 19:28 madnessman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 17:40 CynanMachae wrote:
The point is not that counter to cheese exist, it's just that everybody whos playing ladder is cheesing, so we can only get game that last max 8-10 minutes, either due to the cheesing winning te game or the cheesing failing so its over too No way... My shortest match was 14 minutes. I just scout, out-micro them (since most peopl aren't that good at micro), expand, macro up and crush them. 6 pools are easy to defend against if you scout them because you'll probably be able to get a zealot up and if you pull like 6 probes you'll be fine.
The game is IMO over after you out-micro his cheese, and are in a much better situation in econ, tech and army. No matter how long the actual duration is. Trying out a strategy on someone who failed a 6-pool is not going to show its viability.
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EPT
