EPTwhat would an actual drummer say about them?
The Art of the Drum Solo - Page 2
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sassy
240 Posts
what would an actual drummer say about them? | ||
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jamster1211
Taiwan153 Posts
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unit
United States2621 Posts
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
On February 09 2010 11:29 sassy wrote: i dunno, are these any good in your opinion? what would an actual drummer say about them? No they are garbage. I, being an actual drummer, would say that there are some metal drummers worth paying attention to, who do have some scary technique; but these aren't them. Notable guys include George Kollias, Derek Roddy, Flo Mournier, Marco Minneman and Mike Mangini. Marco and Mike aren't straight ahead metal drummers but they are both outrageous in the technical skill department. For some further analysis, the first video is painful to watch because the guy is struggling with a very forced technique. These sorts of people have probably had very few lessons and have thought very little about the physics of playing. For black metal playing, you just play incredibly simple patterns very fast. This guy isn't particularly fast and he's really struggling. You watch a guy like Tony Williams or Alan Dawson, who were playing much faster, much longer and with 10 times more skill back in the 50's. The second video is just a mishy mashy collection of sloppy, crappy playing. The second half is truly hideous. You could find literally a million drummers in the world who could do that, and probably a million who would do it far better. If you want some scary metal chops, this would register fairly high on the 'oh for fuck's sake' scale: (about 1 min in I guess) Still, as a drummer, stuff like this leaves you completely cold. There's literally 0/10 musical creativity or expression. Give me this any day: | ||
alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
By the way I'll just add that my favourite metal drummer is Nick Barker, formerly of Dimmu Borgir and I think still in Old Man's Child. (2:16 onwards- the overwhelming power of the drumming in this section really contributes to the dramatic, theatrical atmosphere. The reason a section like this is so impressive is that barely any drummers would think to play in such a way) He has a great idea of how to make a track better with his playing. He isn't scarily fast but he is a great player. Same goes for Neil Peart actually, he is not a technical beast, by any stretch of the imagination; but he has come up with some of the best parts and especially drum fills in his songs ever, and he's in my top 5 drummers for that reason, because he's such a creative person (he also writes all the Rush lyrics). For sheer drumming delight, I always like to check out Rush's Fly by Night: Nothing here is hard, in fact I'm putting up a video of me playing it in a few weeks' time, but so much of the work on the track is just great and inspiring as a drummer: And in case anyone hasn't seen. This cat, Aaron Spears, has been tearing up the scene after breaking out of the gospel circuit because of playing with Usher. But his playing in his gospel band The Gideon Band is so fucking ridiculously good. He is so talented it's unholy. Not only does he make my jaw drop he is very inspiring and has an extremely solid groove. This is a classic performance from 2005 modern drummer DVD: | ||
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JohnColtrane
Australia4813 Posts
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
Matched is easier to play loud, easier to pick up techniques (because both hands are learning the same technique) and slightly easier to play fast. I have to add that I'm putting the word easier- because there's barely any difference between the technical facility offered by both methods in the long run- it's just simpler to use matched. Traditional is however steeped in the mystique of older, great players. For that reason, it's enjoyable to play. It makes you feel like your idols. And it also feels like you are cradling the drum. Weird, I know, but it feels like an intimate connection with your snare. Like you can whisper ideas into its ear and have little private conversations. That's why it's so prevalent in jazz- because comping in jazz (where the snare and bass play 'compositions' whilst the ride and hi hat keep time) is a very expressive and personal exercise, and trad feels comforting and personal to me  . John Coltrane's drummer for 6 years, Elvin Jones, who played on A Love Supreme, is a classic example of the personal exploration in jazz drumming. Just wouldn't feel right to me if he played trad! By the way he also comped with the left foot on hi hat, a little trademark of his. So he was comping with three voices and keeping time with one. He also kept time differently to everyone else but that's another story. Could go on for hours about Elvin.I personally switch it up depending on the style I am playing. Jazz, latin, funk = trad...rock, metal, gospel = matched. I also switch between the two when playing solos. I find that trad is harder to get big power- but then again Stewart Copeland (of Police fame) doesn't. But then again he doesn't use an orthodox technique .When it comes down to great players right now, there are far more on the side of traditional grip, but most of the new breed of great players play in matched. (But I'll add that almost every one of them can play traditional). And here's a bonus video which shows Tony Williams destroying the stability of the universe and his ride cymbal with unfathomable speed and musicality at the age of 17 (about halfway through). This shit is not easy: | ||
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sassy
240 Posts
On February 09 2010 11:57 sc4k wrote: No they are garbage. I, being an actual drummer, would say that there are some metal drummers worth paying attention to, who do have some scary technique; but these aren't them. Notable guys include George Kollias, Derek Roddy, Flo Mournier, Marco Minneman and Mike Mangini. Marco and Mike aren't straight ahead metal drummers but they are both outrageous in the technical skill department. For some further analysis, the first video is painful to watch because the guy is struggling with a very forced technique. These sorts of people have probably had very few lessons and have thought very little about the physics of playing. For black metal playing, you just play incredibly simple patterns very fast. This guy isn't particularly fast and he's really struggling. thanks for indepth analysis. Im a little surprised, frost is the fastest drummer in black metal. I was always impressed with the speed he plays at! And he is fairly creative as far as black goes in my eyes. Maybe it was a bad video to base opinions on? i cant believe you find him worse than dimmu borgir drummer damn but its really cool that youre sharing with us, post your videos too | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
About what you say about me rating Nick Barker more than Frost, it's just my opinion, but it's because he plays in a style of music which doesn't stretch one's creativity; and yet manages to play some very interesting and creative drum parts. This guy from Frost is nothing bad, he's not garbage but he's definitely not at the 'pinnacle' of metal drumming. And if he does play that tense as in the first video even now, he's probably having to use a lot of massages and tiger balm to avoid crippling sciatica or tendonitis lol. It's like golf- you can have unorthodox technique, but very often it catches up with you and gives you injuries. And anyway some of the best metal drumming isn't very fast. Death's Flesh and the Power it Holds has some of the sickest death metal drumming: | ||
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ZeroCartin
Costa Rica2390 Posts
Drummer from the band Porcupine Tree | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
That last video is really great man, love it. About 1:30 is where it gets tite!!! | ||
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sassy
240 Posts
i liked Vinnie Colaiuta and George Kollias a lot, both seem crazy good and for some reason Mike Mangini, he just looks super cool and yea sc4k, agreed about Death 100% | ||
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OMin
United States545 Posts
on that note though, i do have a sort of out of place question ive played piano for 10 years, sort of absent mindedly, and i have no rhythmical sense AT all. i can count 1 2 3 4 or 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and or 1 e and a 2 e and a 3 e and a 4 e and a in 4 4 or other simple duple meters as well as 3 4, 6 8, but if theres rests and dotted rhythms (especially when rests come on a beat) it confuses me so much. and also, i have no idea how to count/listen for more unorthodox signatures like 5 4 or 7 4 (and beyond that). what do you guys recommend i do to improve my rhythmic sense? i feel like working on my own is so slow because i dont even know if i am counting right. | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
check this out:This is Vinnie being unfair. No one else on the planet could play this song so tight with so much outrageous flair. It might not be as impressive as other stuff here, but let me tell you it's just completely ridiculous if you actually learned what he's doing the stuff he does at the end is insane. Try to count the song too, it's in 5/4, but listen to how natural it sounds with the Vinnie/Sting hookup. | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
The best way to break into unorthodox time sigs is to find a melody and sing it. That's because folk music has been using odd time signatures since time immemorial. The bulgars thought nothing of a tune in 13/8 because they sing passages that, because of the words and scansion, force the song into an odd time signature which is normal because they are concentrating on the vocals. The easiest way to count any odd time signature is the good old mission impossible theme. 1 2 3 4 5 DUH DUH DUH DUH so when im playing in 5 I might be thinking those beats. Duh....duh...duh duh Duh...duh...duh duh. It's well easy to start playing around with it then. Duh, boo duh blap duh duh Duh blapblap Duh dooguhblap Duh dooguh duh dooguh So yeah, find a tune with some odd time signatures and sing the phrase in your head whilst playing. You have to do it for awhile, try and solo over it. After quite awhile you will start to feel the pulse naturally and enjoy it. Honestly, some people can play 7/8 as if it were 4/4, Vinnie being one of them. He once OPEN SOLO'd in 13/8 and a guy in the audience counted it (he was a famous drum teacher) and still couldn't find one mistake. The cubans and brazilians can feel claves the same way we can feel 4/4, but look it's because they hear it more than 4/4. (And yes I know the basic clave patterns, son and rumba are in 4/4 but the point is they don't hear the four on the floor duh duh duh duh they hear ....bap bap.....bap...bap...bap. And they play it totally naturally. For higher time sigs like 9/8 or 11/8, I usually just count 4 then a little extra. 1 2 3 4 uh 1 2 3 4 uh 1 2 3 4 uh 1 2 3 4 uh. With uh being an 8th note. 13/8 is 1 2 3 4 5 6 uh 1 2 3 4 5 6 uh etc. 33/16 is easy too.... 1 2 3 4a 1 2 3 4a 1 2 3 4a Ok and on top of that, if you can make any music you can make yourself a bassline in 5/8 or 7/8, and then jam over it, practice again and again with metronome, then I promise you will get better. If you can't make any tracks then I could make a couple for you with just basslines for u to play around with- pm me if necessary. Also, check this song out, maybe you could play the piano. It has 5 and 7 in it as well as a SICK keyboard solo quite late in the piece which is in 5/8 but feels like 10/4 because the drums are being awesome: Ok apparently the layout of the messages on this site prevent that 5/4 explanation from being particularly helpful, but you get the idea. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
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virpi
Germany3599 Posts
this thread needs more Danny Carey. | ||
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