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Hate. Freaking. HBR. zvp there is the most rigged thing ever. How the heck are you suppose to win it? In mid/late game Zerg has to guard that mineral exp cliff and his natural, 2 big wide open areas to play into the mid/late game while toss barely even has to move, and they have so many different aggressive options. Even if you freaking outplay them and have the same psi your still behind because of the map structure.
3 hatch scourge, massing drones into muta hydra or lurker. depending on the circumstances, i have tried turtleing with lurkers, I have tried different muta/hydra techs, muta to snipe temps and hydra but that does not play well into the late game. With that I will either win right away or toss will get that 3rd up and i will not be able to get a 4th because of the map structure and/or my tech choice.
I've been losing so many zvp games where I am ahead of psi on this particular map, which is really really discouraging. I am not letting toss sneak exps, delaying everything the toss is trying to do to my power, I am not letting toss sneak shuttles into my main or expanson, it's just a mobile toss ball of units that can not be beaten in mid/late game due to the map structure. It's just mentally and in theory gotten to the point where I can not find a way for z to beat p there. It's dependent on p making a mistake to win has zerg. I've tried watching jaedong play there, the only zvp he wins there is when p makes a mistake in the early game. I've tried looking really deep into that, perhaps it's just precision and execution that enables jaedong to have the toss make small mistakes. I think that after lots of studying reps and practice, it is not a consistent way to win vs a player with equal skill, but it is something that can give an edge, which can be used to win games sometimes.
I'll be the first to admit that I still need to improve my zvp. And my play in general. It is something I will try to practice in the next week after the motw changes.
Anyways, I am making this post because I felt like ranting, and I am getting so sick of losing zvp games there.
I am open to any constructive criticism regarding how to win zvp there.
/endrant.
P.S: I've decided to make this post also to perhaps become more acquainted with the tl community, seeing has I don't really post much. Over the past year or so i've really grown to like this website a lot. Good community and can be insightful .. well sometimes 
And yeah. That is all the haps.
 
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i have the same problems but apparently z>>p on this map.
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same here.
strangely zvp is my worst matchup. The 5 hatch hydra shit isn't working for me when storms kill like 5000 hydras =(. i guess I need to practice muta sniping..
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lol HBR is the map I have the most success on ZvP.. it's great for defendsive LurkerLing play because of the spokes. With good Zergling/Overlord scouting it's so easy to get your Lurkers in position fast to deter him from attacking and if he does commit he's fighting up hill. And yeah once you get Hive crackling drops are so powerful because his main is so exposed.
Calm plays like this a lot I think!
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Braavos36362 Posts
ICCup stats on HBR, ZvP
16860 - 14268 (54.16 %) HBR 1.2
26303 - 23278 (53.05 %) HBR 1.1
Pretty favorable for Z...
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Baa?21242 Posts
TBH, pro level ZvP is a lot different from, well, none pro level ZvP >.<
So those strategies/statistics aren't wholly relevant :3
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Baltimore, USA22247 Posts
I'm actually surprised you only have 1000 posts
Edit - on this account 
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On December 06 2009 06:19 Hot_Bid wrote:
ICCup stats on HBR, ZvP
16860 - 14268 (54.16 %) HBR 1.2
26303 - 23278 (53.05 %) HBR 1.1
Pretty favorable for Z...
Really? Looks pretty even to me.
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If you can't win a ZvP on HBR I feel sorry for you.
Us protosses have to work so hard to win when you just 1a2a3a4a5a6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh
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Grats on your 1000th post tt1!
Well, Speaking has far as pro league stats, it's a fair argument. I have already looked at a lot of vods at how zergs will play zvp there. It is muta/hydra most of the time, starting off with 3h scourge. I've been trying that a lot, but it's just if I can't do a lot of damage early and when it gets to mid game when toss gets his 3rd and im trying to put up my 4th. I'm having trouble at that stage on hbr due to the map structure.
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Please show me how to beat a+ protoss users has zerg on hbr monstah.
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ZvP 54% means Z wins 17% games more than P does.
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well youd probably have to be an a+ zerg if youd want to beat an a+ toss on any map
anyways personally, i hate playing vs ling lurk on hbr.. its so hard to break z's army once they hold their 12/6oclock ramp with lurk/ling/scourge..imo thats the period where z gains the advantage on hbr, you can double exp on 12/6 + 11/5 very easily, most of the good kor z's ive played just turtle alot early game while they power drone/hive tech up into ultra/ling/def and slow p down by blocking their exps and massdropping
once it gets into the lategame stage thats when it starts getting hard for z because the map is split and its very easy for p to defend their exps on hbr, it starts getting hard for z to break our army and to do any damage on our reav/cannon defended exps.. when you do get into that phase the only option you have is just to try to split p's army up as much(by dropping etc.) as you can and then just start attacking endlessly, try to switch into ling/ultra/hyd once p gets really reav heavy
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maybe its what the protoss is doing and not you that might be the problem
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Well, I think with the stacticits of zvp here, and my own experiences, the main problem is my zvp is bad on hbr. my win ratio vs friends is about 40~60% zvp on other maps while on hbr its 20%. My games won are from an early advantage.
What defines good zvp on hbr? If the map is balanced like other zvp maps but im losing more zvp on it. It seems like an indication that I need to work on my micro, and my early game.
Edit: It seems that the most important part of the game on that map is the first 8 minutes due too the way it will play out with the structure. That's my theory for now at least.
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3hatch spire (for scourge) --> 5hatch hydra, establish map control, set up a lurker contain outside his nat, take expansions, build a bunch of mutas to snipe the Protoss's templar and maybe obs (or just scourge these) when he tries to push out and break your lurker contain. Don't let him take his third without breaking your contain. Make it take like 5 minutes just to break out, by which time you're on like 5 expansions to his 2 and he has no way to defeat your infinite hydras.
I think this is the most standard way to make P's life hell on Heartbreak Ridge.
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contain is useless on hbr because p has easy access to the 2nd exp
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EPT
