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Hate. Freaking. HBR. zvp there is the most rigged thing ever. How the heck are you suppose to win it? In mid/late game Zerg has to guard that mineral exp cliff and his natural, 2 big wide open areas to play into the mid/late game while toss barely even has to move, and they have so many different aggressive options. Even if you freaking outplay them and have the same psi your still behind because of the map structure.
3 hatch scourge, massing drones into muta hydra or lurker. depending on the circumstances, i have tried turtleing with lurkers, I have tried different muta/hydra techs, muta to snipe temps and hydra but that does not play well into the late game. With that I will either win right away or toss will get that 3rd up and i will not be able to get a 4th because of the map structure and/or my tech choice.
I've been losing so many zvp games where I am ahead of psi on this particular map, which is really really discouraging. I am not letting toss sneak exps, delaying everything the toss is trying to do to my power, I am not letting toss sneak shuttles into my main or expanson, it's just a mobile toss ball of units that can not be beaten in mid/late game due to the map structure. It's just mentally and in theory gotten to the point where I can not find a way for z to beat p there. It's dependent on p making a mistake to win has zerg. I've tried watching jaedong play there, the only zvp he wins there is when p makes a mistake in the early game. I've tried looking really deep into that, perhaps it's just precision and execution that enables jaedong to have the toss make small mistakes. I think that after lots of studying reps and practice, it is not a consistent way to win vs a player with equal skill, but it is something that can give an edge, which can be used to win games sometimes.
I'll be the first to admit that I still need to improve my zvp. And my play in general. It is something I will try to practice in the next week after the motw changes.
Anyways, I am making this post because I felt like ranting, and I am getting so sick of losing zvp games there.
I am open to any constructive criticism regarding how to win zvp there.
/endrant.
P.S: I've decided to make this post also to perhaps become more acquainted with the tl community, seeing has I don't really post much. Over the past year or so i've really grown to like this website a lot. Good community and can be insightful .. well sometimes 
And yeah. That is all the haps.
 
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i have the same problems but apparently z>>p on this map.
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same here.
strangely zvp is my worst matchup. The 5 hatch hydra shit isn't working for me when storms kill like 5000 hydras =(. i guess I need to practice muta sniping..
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lol HBR is the map I have the most success on ZvP.. it's great for defendsive LurkerLing play because of the spokes. With good Zergling/Overlord scouting it's so easy to get your Lurkers in position fast to deter him from attacking and if he does commit he's fighting up hill. And yeah once you get Hive crackling drops are so powerful because his main is so exposed.
Calm plays like this a lot I think!
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Braavos36373 Posts
ICCup stats on HBR, ZvP
16860 - 14268 (54.16 %) HBR 1.2
26303 - 23278 (53.05 %) HBR 1.1
Pretty favorable for Z...
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Baa?21242 Posts
TBH, pro level ZvP is a lot different from, well, none pro level ZvP >.<
So those strategies/statistics aren't wholly relevant :3
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Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
I'm actually surprised you only have 1000 posts
Edit - on this account 
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On December 06 2009 06:19 Hot_Bid wrote:
ICCup stats on HBR, ZvP
16860 - 14268 (54.16 %) HBR 1.2
26303 - 23278 (53.05 %) HBR 1.1
Pretty favorable for Z...
Really? Looks pretty even to me.
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If you can't win a ZvP on HBR I feel sorry for you.
Us protosses have to work so hard to win when you just 1a2a3a4a5a6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh
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Grats on your 1000th post tt1!
Well, Speaking has far as pro league stats, it's a fair argument. I have already looked at a lot of vods at how zergs will play zvp there. It is muta/hydra most of the time, starting off with 3h scourge. I've been trying that a lot, but it's just if I can't do a lot of damage early and when it gets to mid game when toss gets his 3rd and im trying to put up my 4th. I'm having trouble at that stage on hbr due to the map structure.
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Please show me how to beat a+ protoss users has zerg on hbr monstah.
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ZvP 54% means Z wins 17% games more than P does.
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well youd probably have to be an a+ zerg if youd want to beat an a+ toss on any map
anyways personally, i hate playing vs ling lurk on hbr.. its so hard to break z's army once they hold their 12/6oclock ramp with lurk/ling/scourge..imo thats the period where z gains the advantage on hbr, you can double exp on 12/6 + 11/5 very easily, most of the good kor z's ive played just turtle alot early game while they power drone/hive tech up into ultra/ling/def and slow p down by blocking their exps and massdropping
once it gets into the lategame stage thats when it starts getting hard for z because the map is split and its very easy for p to defend their exps on hbr, it starts getting hard for z to break our army and to do any damage on our reav/cannon defended exps.. when you do get into that phase the only option you have is just to try to split p's army up as much(by dropping etc.) as you can and then just start attacking endlessly, try to switch into ling/ultra/hyd once p gets really reav heavy
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maybe its what the protoss is doing and not you that might be the problem
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Well, I think with the stacticits of zvp here, and my own experiences, the main problem is my zvp is bad on hbr. my win ratio vs friends is about 40~60% zvp on other maps while on hbr its 20%. My games won are from an early advantage.
What defines good zvp on hbr? If the map is balanced like other zvp maps but im losing more zvp on it. It seems like an indication that I need to work on my micro, and my early game.
Edit: It seems that the most important part of the game on that map is the first 8 minutes due too the way it will play out with the structure. That's my theory for now at least.
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3hatch spire (for scourge) --> 5hatch hydra, establish map control, set up a lurker contain outside his nat, take expansions, build a bunch of mutas to snipe the Protoss's templar and maybe obs (or just scourge these) when he tries to push out and break your lurker contain. Don't let him take his third without breaking your contain. Make it take like 5 minutes just to break out, by which time you're on like 5 expansions to his 2 and he has no way to defeat your infinite hydras.
I think this is the most standard way to make P's life hell on Heartbreak Ridge.
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contain is useless on hbr because p has easy access to the 2nd exp
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Norway28582 Posts
i think zvp heartbreak is pretty damn zerg favoured
i generally have like 90%+ zvp there going through ladders and only like 60% pvz t.t
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Hmm. Well I respect and appreciate your insight drone.
If your not busy at the moment, can we play a pvz game on hbr now Drone? Show me how you play has zerg to win on hbr. ~_~
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ok, we all know it supposed to be Z>P but what DOES make it zerg favored??
Easy third hard fourth seems favorable to me. Only thing that I can think off is that 2 favors sorrounds and backstaps
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On December 06 2009 07:24 Iplaythings wrote:
ok, we all know it supposed to be Z>P but what DOES make it zerg favored??
Easy third hard fourth seems favorable to me. Only thing that I can think off is that 2 favors sorrounds and backstaps
It's easy for the Zerg to deny the Protoss the third, and it's hard for the Protoss to break the Zerg's third. Once the Protoss takes the third it gets hard for the Zerg though.
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HBR is highly Zerg favored. You get 5 bases from defending 2 spots and one of them being a ridge that is a bitch for P to break, also the 2 points you have to defend are close by so you can always move troops fast to the other spot if P decides to attack the other place. Also Drops are insanely strong on this map since P have to move big distances to protect his main or 5th. In general its heaven for a defensive macro oriented Zerg style of play.
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I hate HBR too. It gives an excuse for people to complain about when they lose not to mention rubbing in the fact that "protoss" is so easy
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On December 06 2009 06:55 iamtt1 wrote:
contain is useless on hbr because p has easy access to the 2nd exp
Uh... I definitely saw lurker contains on HBR in pro matches, succeeding against the world's best Protoss players. The second expo should be easy to block because Protoss has to move through a tiny little choke to reach it.
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almost any build can work once in a while but your not accomplishing much by containg p on hbr
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mine out the back mineral and run lines in wins most of time for me
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sounds like the heat of the break ridge is getting to you
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o and put lurkers up on the ridges if u want ez wins
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PROTOSS IS SO OVERPOWERED AND GAY AM I RIGHT GUYS
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On December 06 2009 07:30 Oystein wrote:
HBR is highly Zerg favored. You get 5 bases from defending 2 spots and one of them being a ridge that is a bitch for P to break, also the 2 points you have to defend are close by so you can always move troops fast to the other spot if P decides to attack the other place. Also Drops are insanely strong on this map since P have to move big distances to protect his main or 5th. In general its heaven for a defensive macro oriented Zerg style of play.
2 big spots, which I meantioned previously. One spot that has two entrances, threw the middle and the side. One of those zerg expansons beside the protoss main. 2 huge spots. Protoss is the aggressor, and uses this very concept to his advantage on this map in mid/late game in my experiences and the vods i have seen. I'm not saying your right im wrong or vice virsa. I'm saying show me how. Show me in a demonstration game on iccup by playing me zvp, or finding a different zerg to play, or a vod of a zvp that does not have zerg getting an advantage in the first 8 minutes. Followed by winning in that way in the mid/late game on hbr.
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i dunno why you say the spots are big.. thats where you gain your advantage from, the only areas you have to defend are the ramps leading to your 12/6 exp and the area right outside your nat
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On December 06 2009 07:45 Raptor[eigen]. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 07:30 Oystein wrote:
HBR is highly Zerg favored. You get 5 bases from defending 2 spots and one of them being a ridge that is a bitch for P to break, also the 2 points you have to defend are close by so you can always move troops fast to the other spot if P decides to attack the other place. Also Drops are insanely strong on this map since P have to move big distances to protect his main or 5th. In general its heaven for a defensive macro oriented Zerg style of play. 2 big spots, which I meantioned previously. One spot that has two entrances, threw the middle and the side. One of those zerg expansons beside the protoss main. 2 huge spots. Protoss is the aggressor, and uses this very concept to his advantage on this map in mid/late game in my experiences and the vods i have seen. I'm not saying your right im wrong or vice virsa. I'm saying show me how. Show me in a demonstration game on iccup by playing me zvp, or finding a different zerg to play, or a vod of a zvp that does not have zerg getting an advantage in the first 8 minutes. Followed by winning in that way in the mid/late game on hbr.
They are not huge and the one spot you have a ridge helping you tremendously, also that small choke they have to attack through also helps you since they can`t really engage with more than a few units at a time unless they just run in and take tons of lurker damage before attacking. The spot outside your natural you can easily help fortify with adding a few sunks\spores there since you will have creep from your natural there anyway.
If you want an example of defensive macro play there go watch Zero vs Bisu (the queen game, watch how easily he defends Bisus attempts to break any of those spots). Also there is Zero vs Pure if I remember correctly, where he just demolishes Pure with the same kind of defensive macro play that is perfectly suited for this map.
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Calgary25969 Posts
zvp is so textbook there. after scourge, get lurkers at 2 spots, hold that for 10 until youve secured your side and move into ultradefiler with drops.
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HI RAY (Sorry I cannot offer any sort of technical advice to resolve your zvp issues on HBR.) !!!
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On December 06 2009 08:02 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 07:45 Raptor[eigen]. wrote:On December 06 2009 07:30 Oystein wrote:
HBR is highly Zerg favored. You get 5 bases from defending 2 spots and one of them being a ridge that is a bitch for P to break, also the 2 points you have to defend are close by so you can always move troops fast to the other spot if P decides to attack the other place. Also Drops are insanely strong on this map since P have to move big distances to protect his main or 5th. In general its heaven for a defensive macro oriented Zerg style of play. 2 big spots, which I meantioned previously. One spot that has two entrances, threw the middle and the side. One of those zerg expansons beside the protoss main. 2 huge spots. Protoss is the aggressor, and uses this very concept to his advantage on this map in mid/late game in my experiences and the vods i have seen. I'm not saying your right im wrong or vice virsa. I'm saying show me how. Show me in a demonstration game on iccup by playing me zvp, or finding a different zerg to play, or a vod of a zvp that does not have zerg getting an advantage in the first 8 minutes. Followed by winning in that way in the mid/late game on hbr. They are not huge and the one spot you have a ridge helping you tremendously, also that small choke they have to attack through also helps you since they can`t really engage with more than a few units at a time unless they just run in and take tons of lurker damage before attacking. The spot outside your natural you can easily help fortify with adding a few sunks\spores there since you will have creep from your natural there anyway. If you want an example of defensive macro play there go watch Zero vs Bisu (the queen game, watch how easily he defends Bisus attempts to break any of those spots). Also there is Zero vs Pure if I remember correctly, where he just demolishes Pure with the same kind of defensive macro play that is perfectly suited for this map.
Well I just finished watching zero vs bisu. Easily is a strong word, perhaps a little too strong for this game. But anyways, this was a good demonstration, I really enjoyed this vod. Killing off those temps before he got to use any of them at the most important moment except for 1 templar really helped A LOT. That's something I will note! =]
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On December 06 2009 08:02 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 07:45 Raptor[eigen]. wrote:On December 06 2009 07:30 Oystein wrote:
HBR is highly Zerg favored. You get 5 bases from defending 2 spots and one of them being a ridge that is a bitch for P to break, also the 2 points you have to defend are close by so you can always move troops fast to the other spot if P decides to attack the other place. Also Drops are insanely strong on this map since P have to move big distances to protect his main or 5th. In general its heaven for a defensive macro oriented Zerg style of play. 2 big spots, which I meantioned previously. One spot that has two entrances, threw the middle and the side. One of those zerg expansons beside the protoss main. 2 huge spots. Protoss is the aggressor, and uses this very concept to his advantage on this map in mid/late game in my experiences and the vods i have seen. I'm not saying your right im wrong or vice virsa. I'm saying show me how. Show me in a demonstration game on iccup by playing me zvp, or finding a different zerg to play, or a vod of a zvp that does not have zerg getting an advantage in the first 8 minutes. Followed by winning in that way in the mid/late game on hbr. They are not huge and the one spot you have a ridge helping you tremendously, also that small choke they have to attack through also helps you since they can`t really engage with more than a few units at a time unless they just run in and take tons of lurker damage before attacking. The spot outside your natural you can easily help fortify with adding a few sunks\spores there since you will have creep from your natural there anyway. If you want an example of defensive macro play there go watch Zero vs Bisu (the queen game, watch how easily he defends Bisus attempts to break any of those spots). Also there is Zero vs Pure if I remember correctly, where he just demolishes Pure with the same kind of defensive macro play that is perfectly suited for this map.
hbr zvp is not good for defensive macro play, yeah you can defend 4 gas with 3 chokes but on most 3/4 player maps you can defend it with 2. hbr is mainly just good for aggressive contains with lurkers/hydras since you need map control to expand.
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I managed to lose a 1 hr long ZvP only because I couldn't secure the top left gas base and the toss took it from me. So it turned out half map vs half map. I won all the ground battles once ultras were out and we had a full psi vs full psi fight and won that. But it ended up neither one of us attacked after a certain point and he just fucking mass cannon + reaver + templar and went sair/carrier T_T fuck me haha
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I usually win vs P on this map (same rank P)
9 pool (without speed), send your 9th drone to check the upper and down part of the map (depending on your starting position) to check for proxy. If it is not proxy make gas trick and get one more drone (this way the protoss will count 9 drones and think it is a normal 9 pool) and send the scouting drone to mine out his back mineral. Harrass his main etc. Go 3 hat spire scourge 5 hat hydra. Once you get both hydra upgs make your 4th and 5th at the same time. Your lurk upgrade should finish soon.
I usually defend my 4th with 3 sunks and 1 spore and some lurks. Defend both your nat and 3rd with the same lurks and few sunks. Yes, you will have to be moving your lurker position depending where is is attacking. Drop, and try to be everywhere. The map is big but you can get to his 4th pretty fast with ling defiler while droping. GL.
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I absolutely love zvp on HBR, just playing overpool (or 9pool) -> 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch hydra den is super solid, and it seems like pretty much any followup is viable (muta->hyd, lurk/hyd, hyd/lurk, muta->ultra/ling, lurk -> muta -> lurk/hyd etc etc).
All about practice !
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this is why they moved the mineral only so it doesnt gaurd the corner gas expos. toss just put reavers their and macro'd. while zerg had to try n take middle... which is extremely hard to guard
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On December 06 2009 08:28 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 08:02 Oystein wrote:On December 06 2009 07:45 Raptor[eigen]. wrote:On December 06 2009 07:30 Oystein wrote:
HBR is highly Zerg favored. You get 5 bases from defending 2 spots and one of them being a ridge that is a bitch for P to break, also the 2 points you have to defend are close by so you can always move troops fast to the other spot if P decides to attack the other place. Also Drops are insanely strong on this map since P have to move big distances to protect his main or 5th. In general its heaven for a defensive macro oriented Zerg style of play. 2 big spots, which I meantioned previously. One spot that has two entrances, threw the middle and the side. One of those zerg expansons beside the protoss main. 2 huge spots. Protoss is the aggressor, and uses this very concept to his advantage on this map in mid/late game in my experiences and the vods i have seen. I'm not saying your right im wrong or vice virsa. I'm saying show me how. Show me in a demonstration game on iccup by playing me zvp, or finding a different zerg to play, or a vod of a zvp that does not have zerg getting an advantage in the first 8 minutes. Followed by winning in that way in the mid/late game on hbr. They are not huge and the one spot you have a ridge helping you tremendously, also that small choke they have to attack through also helps you since they can`t really engage with more than a few units at a time unless they just run in and take tons of lurker damage before attacking. The spot outside your natural you can easily help fortify with adding a few sunks\spores there since you will have creep from your natural there anyway. If you want an example of defensive macro play there go watch Zero vs Bisu (the queen game, watch how easily he defends Bisus attempts to break any of those spots). Also there is Zero vs Pure if I remember correctly, where he just demolishes Pure with the same kind of defensive macro play that is perfectly suited for this map. hbr zvp is not good for defensive macro play, yeah you can defend 4 gas with 3 chokes but on most 3/4 player maps you can defend it with 2. hbr is mainly just good for aggressive contains with lurkers/hydras since you need map control to expand.
lol you are clueless, its perfectly suited for defensive macro play (and by defensive I mean take your 4th as soon as you gain map control and then start defending, and you will get some form of map control regardless with what you open with be it mutas, lurkers, hydras etc unless you take some serious damage early on). Its not 3 places you need to defend (unless you are talking about the new one witch nobody plays yet) its 2 spots the ridge covers both entrances to that spot and you can defend 5 bases with 4 gases from 2 spots that is HUGE. You will get early map control pretty much regardless what you open up with, and once you take the expos you start making mass lurkers to hold the 2 spots while you wait for 5base eco to kick in and roll them with ultra\ling\defiler and abuse drops and your greater mobility. If they can`t break any of your 2 choke points within the time you get ultra you should pretty much never lose on hbr.
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On December 06 2009 06:16 yes9111 wrote:
same here.
strangely zvp is my worst matchup. The 5 hatch hydra shit isn't working for me when storms kill like 5000 hydras =(. i guess I need to practice muta sniping..
Or maybe you just suck at stormdodgeing.
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everything about hbr is retarded and fock. nothing works right on that map and its way imba for P in PvT.
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On December 06 2009 09:15 LuckyFool wrote:
everything about hbr is retarded and fock. nothing works right on that map and its way imba for P in PvT.
hahah this blog reminded me of all your blogs about the shit terran has to deal with, which I totally agree with.
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On December 06 2009 08:29 Metal[x] wrote:
I managed to lose a 1 hr long ZvP only because I couldn't secure the top left gas base and the toss took it from me. So it turned out half map vs half map. I won all the ground battles once ultras were out and we had a full psi vs full psi fight and won that. But it ended up neither one of us attacked after a certain point and he just fucking mass cannon + reaver + templar and went sair/carrier T_T fuck me haha
reeeeeeepllllaaaayyy?
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If you're having map problems I feel bad for you son, I get raped on 99 maps but hbr aint one.
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you crazy for that map, stimd.
it's your map.
EDIT : + Show Spoiler + HOLY SHIT IM A DRAGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wait, that mean's i'm fat and retarded?
:O
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On December 06 2009 06:31 Monstah-_- wrote:
If you can't win a ZvP on HBR I feel sorry for you.
Us protosses have to work so hard to win when you just 1a2a3a4a5a6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh
Lol let the 1a2a3a vs 1a2a3a war begin...
As a terran I'll just sit back and watch.
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On December 06 2009 09:02 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 08:28 iamho wrote:On December 06 2009 08:02 Oystein wrote:On December 06 2009 07:45 Raptor[eigen]. wrote:On December 06 2009 07:30 Oystein wrote:
HBR is highly Zerg favored. You get 5 bases from defending 2 spots and one of them being a ridge that is a bitch for P to break, also the 2 points you have to defend are close by so you can always move troops fast to the other spot if P decides to attack the other place. Also Drops are insanely strong on this map since P have to move big distances to protect his main or 5th. In general its heaven for a defensive macro oriented Zerg style of play. 2 big spots, which I meantioned previously. One spot that has two entrances, threw the middle and the side. One of those zerg expansons beside the protoss main. 2 huge spots. Protoss is the aggressor, and uses this very concept to his advantage on this map in mid/late game in my experiences and the vods i have seen. I'm not saying your right im wrong or vice virsa. I'm saying show me how. Show me in a demonstration game on iccup by playing me zvp, or finding a different zerg to play, or a vod of a zvp that does not have zerg getting an advantage in the first 8 minutes. Followed by winning in that way in the mid/late game on hbr. They are not huge and the one spot you have a ridge helping you tremendously, also that small choke they have to attack through also helps you since they can`t really engage with more than a few units at a time unless they just run in and take tons of lurker damage before attacking. The spot outside your natural you can easily help fortify with adding a few sunks\spores there since you will have creep from your natural there anyway. If you want an example of defensive macro play there go watch Zero vs Bisu (the queen game, watch how easily he defends Bisus attempts to break any of those spots). Also there is Zero vs Pure if I remember correctly, where he just demolishes Pure with the same kind of defensive macro play that is perfectly suited for this map. hbr zvp is not good for defensive macro play, yeah you can defend 4 gas with 3 chokes but on most 3/4 player maps you can defend it with 2. hbr is mainly just good for aggressive contains with lurkers/hydras since you need map control to expand. lol you are clueless, its perfectly suited for defensive macro play (and by defensive I mean take your 4th as soon as you gain map control and then start defending, and you will get some form of map control regardless with what you open with be it mutas, lurkers, hydras etc unless you take some serious damage early on). Its not 3 places you need to defend (unless you are talking about the new one witch nobody plays yet) its 2 spots the ridge covers both entrances to that spot and you can defend 5 bases with 4 gases from 2 spots that is HUGE. You will get early map control pretty much regardless what you open up with, and once you take the expos you start making mass lurkers to hold the 2 spots while you wait for 5base eco to kick in and roll them with ultra\ling\defiler and abuse drops and your greater mobility. If they can`t break any of your 2 choke points within the time you get ultra you should pretty much never lose on hbr.
r u for rela? you can pretty much defend 4 gas on every map with 2 choke points
if you let the zerg play both defensively and have map control at the same time then the problem is you, not the imbalance
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On December 06 2009 10:48 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 09:02 Oystein wrote:On December 06 2009 08:28 iamho wrote:On December 06 2009 08:02 Oystein wrote:On December 06 2009 07:45 Raptor[eigen]. wrote:On December 06 2009 07:30 Oystein wrote:
HBR is highly Zerg favored. You get 5 bases from defending 2 spots and one of them being a ridge that is a bitch for P to break, also the 2 points you have to defend are close by so you can always move troops fast to the other spot if P decides to attack the other place. Also Drops are insanely strong on this map since P have to move big distances to protect his main or 5th. In general its heaven for a defensive macro oriented Zerg style of play. 2 big spots, which I meantioned previously. One spot that has two entrances, threw the middle and the side. One of those zerg expansons beside the protoss main. 2 huge spots. Protoss is the aggressor, and uses this very concept to his advantage on this map in mid/late game in my experiences and the vods i have seen. I'm not saying your right im wrong or vice virsa. I'm saying show me how. Show me in a demonstration game on iccup by playing me zvp, or finding a different zerg to play, or a vod of a zvp that does not have zerg getting an advantage in the first 8 minutes. Followed by winning in that way in the mid/late game on hbr. They are not huge and the one spot you have a ridge helping you tremendously, also that small choke they have to attack through also helps you since they can`t really engage with more than a few units at a time unless they just run in and take tons of lurker damage before attacking. The spot outside your natural you can easily help fortify with adding a few sunks\spores there since you will have creep from your natural there anyway. If you want an example of defensive macro play there go watch Zero vs Bisu (the queen game, watch how easily he defends Bisus attempts to break any of those spots). Also there is Zero vs Pure if I remember correctly, where he just demolishes Pure with the same kind of defensive macro play that is perfectly suited for this map. hbr zvp is not good for defensive macro play, yeah you can defend 4 gas with 3 chokes but on most 3/4 player maps you can defend it with 2. hbr is mainly just good for aggressive contains with lurkers/hydras since you need map control to expand. lol you are clueless, its perfectly suited for defensive macro play (and by defensive I mean take your 4th as soon as you gain map control and then start defending, and you will get some form of map control regardless with what you open with be it mutas, lurkers, hydras etc unless you take some serious damage early on). Its not 3 places you need to defend (unless you are talking about the new one witch nobody plays yet) its 2 spots the ridge covers both entrances to that spot and you can defend 5 bases with 4 gases from 2 spots that is HUGE. You will get early map control pretty much regardless what you open up with, and once you take the expos you start making mass lurkers to hold the 2 spots while you wait for 5base eco to kick in and roll them with ultra\ling\defiler and abuse drops and your greater mobility. If they can`t break any of your 2 choke points within the time you get ultra you should pretty much never lose on hbr. r u for rela? you can pretty much defend 4 gas on every map with 2 choke points if you let the zerg play both defensively and have map control at the same time then the problem is you, not the imbalance
Getting 5 bases on 2 choke points with one of them being at a high ground advantage is NOT common lol. Only kind of maps that happens are at special ones like Blue Storm or Andromeda, on normal map you can get 4 bases from 2 chokes but you never get a high ground advantage and a min only on the trade. If you fail to comprehend how big advantage having high ground is in BW I guess there is no sense discussing with you anymore.
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man so many people hate HBR
I can't say I'm a fan, but it does produce some cool games.
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My zvp plan on HBR is to make a wall of lurkers at that important ridge, hope that they try to break it and flank them with lings when they do, then after they've wasted their army hunt down their expos with defilers.
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Do the new changes change the matchup at all?
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On December 06 2009 09:32 aeroH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 08:29 Metal[x] wrote:
I managed to lose a 1 hr long ZvP only because I couldn't secure the top left gas base and the toss took it from me. So it turned out half map vs half map. I won all the ground battles once ultras were out and we had a full psi vs full psi fight and won that. But it ended up neither one of us attacked after a certain point and he just fucking mass cannon + reaver + templar and went sair/carrier T_T fuck me haha reeeeeeepllllaaaayyy?
http://repdepot.net/download.php?type=rep&id=25805&name=TSL-Princess vs G4i.Grief.rep
i suck i know...
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Now, we've seen all 3 races whine about HBR...
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Norway28582 Posts
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ZvP feels really easy on HBR if you ask me, I just lurker contain and autowin.
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On December 06 2009 11:31 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 10:48 iamho wrote:On December 06 2009 09:02 Oystein wrote:On December 06 2009 08:28 iamho wrote:On December 06 2009 08:02 Oystein wrote:On December 06 2009 07:45 Raptor[eigen]. wrote:On December 06 2009 07:30 Oystein wrote:
HBR is highly Zerg favored. You get 5 bases from defending 2 spots and one of them being a ridge that is a bitch for P to break, also the 2 points you have to defend are close by so you can always move troops fast to the other spot if P decides to attack the other place. Also Drops are insanely strong on this map since P have to move big distances to protect his main or 5th. In general its heaven for a defensive macro oriented Zerg style of play. 2 big spots, which I meantioned previously. One spot that has two entrances, threw the middle and the side. One of those zerg expansons beside the protoss main. 2 huge spots. Protoss is the aggressor, and uses this very concept to his advantage on this map in mid/late game in my experiences and the vods i have seen. I'm not saying your right im wrong or vice virsa. I'm saying show me how. Show me in a demonstration game on iccup by playing me zvp, or finding a different zerg to play, or a vod of a zvp that does not have zerg getting an advantage in the first 8 minutes. Followed by winning in that way in the mid/late game on hbr. They are not huge and the one spot you have a ridge helping you tremendously, also that small choke they have to attack through also helps you since they can`t really engage with more than a few units at a time unless they just run in and take tons of lurker damage before attacking. The spot outside your natural you can easily help fortify with adding a few sunks\spores there since you will have creep from your natural there anyway. If you want an example of defensive macro play there go watch Zero vs Bisu (the queen game, watch how easily he defends Bisus attempts to break any of those spots). Also there is Zero vs Pure if I remember correctly, where he just demolishes Pure with the same kind of defensive macro play that is perfectly suited for this map. hbr zvp is not good for defensive macro play, yeah you can defend 4 gas with 3 chokes but on most 3/4 player maps you can defend it with 2. hbr is mainly just good for aggressive contains with lurkers/hydras since you need map control to expand. lol you are clueless, its perfectly suited for defensive macro play (and by defensive I mean take your 4th as soon as you gain map control and then start defending, and you will get some form of map control regardless with what you open with be it mutas, lurkers, hydras etc unless you take some serious damage early on). Its not 3 places you need to defend (unless you are talking about the new one witch nobody plays yet) its 2 spots the ridge covers both entrances to that spot and you can defend 5 bases with 4 gases from 2 spots that is HUGE. You will get early map control pretty much regardless what you open up with, and once you take the expos you start making mass lurkers to hold the 2 spots while you wait for 5base eco to kick in and roll them with ultra\ling\defiler and abuse drops and your greater mobility. If they can`t break any of your 2 choke points within the time you get ultra you should pretty much never lose on hbr. r u for rela? you can pretty much defend 4 gas on every map with 2 choke points if you let the zerg play both defensively and have map control at the same time then the problem is you, not the imbalance Getting 5 bases on 2 choke points with one of them being at a high ground advantage is NOT common lol. Only kind of maps that happens are at special ones like Blue Storm or Andromeda, on normal map you can get 4 bases from 2 chokes but you never get a high ground advantage and a min only on the trade. If you fail to comprehend how big advantage having high ground is in BW I guess there is no sense discussing with you anymore.
It should be added that the two points you're talking about aren't that far apart either, making it easy to simply pick up and move lukers to the right spot for defense. I also find it a really good map for Zerg drops, but not particularly good for Protoss drops. Protoss harrassment options are more limited imo.
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On December 06 2009 13:24 Sadistx wrote:
Now, we've seen all 3 races whine about HBR...
haha balanced for no race
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EPT
