But then again i dont see mbappe as goat potential. Amazing player, chance to be a legendary player up there with the greats if he keeps pace in champions league and big tournaments but being in contention with Pele, Maradona or Messi you need to do more.
Before the french fans rain down on me, notice i've also not included cronaldo there, same reasoning.
Wasn’t Pelé fighting farmers while Maradona cheated with a handball to win the WC?
Pele's record against european teams while playing for Santos was: 20 defeats, 20 draws and 90 wins. He scored 144 goals in those games.
At 30, he had 3 world cups. And when he was Mbappe's age, already had two. What he represented for the brazilian people is bigger than what Mbappe represents for the french.
It's hard to compare different eras. Pele played in an era where football wasn't even near of the level of play of nowadays. But he didn't have the training players today have either.
What we can do is compare the impact each player had in theirrespective time. And Pele was on a whole other level between 58-70 than Mbappe was in 18-22. Of course future time will tell, but I think Mbappe has a really long way to go before being in the same category of the all times great. Zidane, for exemple, is still a class above in my opinion.
Besides, even if Mbappe wins next year's champions league, that just means Messi will have another one in his carreer too.
And isn't the french league pretty much Europe's "farmers league"? I wonder how long he will stay at PSG, but for sure I would like to see him a more competitive league in the future. I still can't believe Neymar went to PSG while at his peak...
Zidane is hugely overrated but that aside agree with much of what you’re saying here
You can’t be claiming that Zidane is overrated and praise Messi that much lol. Zidane was doing magical things while Messi was still a child, he is the one true goat. His WC 2006 run was the most incredible run I have seen from a player in my lifetime, and he was pretty good in club football as well. He was the national hero in 1998 World Cup, and even became an amazing coach for Real Madrid. Unless Messi becomes a great coach too, the football World will remember Zidane as the goat in a few decades imho. Mbappe has a lot of potential but I doubt he can reach Zidane level either.
Prefacing with 'I adore Zidane', but hasn't he won a single Ballon d'Or (maybe underrated, could've been two or three easily) to Messi's 7 ?
Once again I adore Zinedine, it's more that his trajectory has been steadily upwards - he did greatly benefit from his physical training at Juventus as seen in WC 2006 - whereas Messi always was the chosen one
Ballon’s d’or is not often for midfielder so I don’t really see how that’s relevant? And afaik he won one in 1998
Even at his position you can claim Maradona or Cruyff are goatier. Is he the goat for elegance and ball retention with alien-like control ? For sure. Is he the 90s- early 2000s goat ? yes. Is he the overall goat ? top 5 IMHO but Messi now clearly number 1.
Idk, goat discussions are a bit pointless anyways but Zidane was the real magician. As for another magician, Ronaldinho 2002 was on another level, too bad modern day football is not as flashy as the old days
Wasn't fat Ronaldo the bigger star of those Brazil teams though? Churrasco table is his biggest rival
Yeah fat Ronaldo was an incredible striker, but Ronaldinho was more entertaining imho! And afaik Ronaldo’s weight issues were due to health issues (which might have been due to the less carefully crafted drugs of that era?), not his appetite. Lol I just saw the Macron video with Mbappe and Deschamps, our president is more sticky than a jar of glue. Let the players deal with the loss in peace, you can communicate about the event later ffs
On December 19 2022 03:42 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So... why is Macron on the stage with FIFA officials again?
because he is one obviously. he personally gave qatar the world cup
When did that happen? Qatar got the WC in 2010, at that point, Macron was an investment banker with only some fairly minor political positions. You're probably thinking about Sarkozy, who was in power between 2007 and 2012.
yeah i got mixed up. was just thinking "french president gave qatar world cup" and forgot there was a change in presidency
On December 19 2022 09:51 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The reason why France lost is because of this one quote by Mbappe. The ego of it all. Destiny could not be averted.
He is a young fellow so he says a lot of shit. But the cold truth is that Argentina was highly favored by the referees throughout the tournament. In this finals alone, they were doing ridiculous physical fouls and getting away with it, numbing the French players. Indeed, when French players tried to retaliate they were not treated as well: see Di Maria diving and getting a penalty for Messi, while Thuram does the same and gets a yellow.
I don’t get why people on here disrespect Ronaldo for not winning a World Cup, at least he didn’t get one awarded for free .
On December 19 2022 09:51 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The reason why France lost is because of this one quote by Mbappe. The ego of it all. Destiny could not be averted.
He is a young fellow so he says a lot of shit. But the cold truth is that Argentina was highly favored by the referees throughout the tournament. In this finals alone, they were doing ridiculous physical fouls and getting away with it, numbing the French players. Indeed, when French players tried to retaliate they were not treated as well: see Di Maria diving and getting a penalty for Messi, while Thuram does the same and gets a yellow.
I don’t get why people on here disrespect Ronaldo for not winning a World Cup, at least he didn’t get one awarded for free .
argentina were deserved winners in all their games though. france used up their favours to advance past quarters against a team that played better
On December 19 2022 03:32 zev318 wrote: can mbappe be considered goat if he stays in france his whole career? does club level matter or just national team success
That is irrelevant or at least should be.
But then again i dont see mbappe as goat potential. Amazing player, chance to be a legendary player up there with the greats if he keeps pace in champions league and big tournaments but being in contention with Pele, Maradona or Messi you need to do more.
Before the french fans rain down on me, notice i've also not included cronaldo there, same reasoning.
Wasn’t Pelé fighting farmers while Maradona cheated with a handball to win the WC?
Pele's record against european teams while playing for Santos was: 20 defeats, 20 draws and 90 wins. He scored 144 goals in those games.
At 30, he had 3 world cups. And when he was Mbappe's age, already had two. What he represented for the brazilian people is bigger than what Mbappe represents for the french.
It's hard to compare different eras. Pele played in an era where football wasn't even near of the level of play of nowadays. But he didn't have the training players today have either.
What we can do is compare the impact each player had in theirrespective time. And Pele was on a whole other level between 58-70 than Mbappe was in 18-22. Of course future time will tell, but I think Mbappe has a really long way to go before being in the same category of the all times great. Zidane, for exemple, is still a class above in my opinion.
Besides, even if Mbappe wins next year's champions league, that just means Messi will have another one in his carreer too.
And isn't the french league pretty much Europe's "farmers league"? I wonder how long he will stay at PSG, but for sure I would like to see him a more competitive league in the future. I still can't believe Neymar went to PSG while at his peak...
Zidane is hugely overrated but that aside agree with much of what you’re saying here
You can’t be claiming that Zidane is overrated and praise Messi that much lol. Zidane was doing magical things while Messi was still a child, he is the one true goat. His WC 2006 run was the most incredible run I have seen from a player in my lifetime, and he was pretty good in club football as well. He was the national hero in 1998 World Cup, and even became an amazing coach for Real Madrid. Unless Messi becomes a great coach too, the football World will remember Zidane as the goat in a few decades imho. Mbappe has a lot of potential but I doubt he can reach Zidane level either.
Zidane showed up for big games that most football watchers saw, ones that stick in the memory.
Zidane in full flow like against Spain or Brazil in 2006 was a thing of beauty.
But they are accompanied by huge inconsistency. For a GOAT contender to only end up with 3 league titles and one CL after playing for peak Juventus and Real Madrid for your best years.
He’s a great sure, with a lovely grace but overrated. Can still be a great and overrated at the same time.
He doesn’t have the preposterous numbers in trophies or goals/assists that the Ronaldo/Messi duo do. For my money Ronaldinho at his best was a more influential player than Zidane.
He’s just a smidge overrated, in the same way I think a player like Michael Laudrup is a little underrated. Platini may have a more compelling case to be the greatest French 10.
On December 19 2022 09:51 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The reason why France lost is because of this one quote by Mbappe. The ego of it all. Destiny could not be averted.
He is a young fellow so he says a lot of shit. But the cold truth is that Argentina was highly favored by the referees throughout the tournament. In this finals alone, they were doing ridiculous physical fouls and getting away with it, numbing the French players. Indeed, when French players tried to retaliate they were not treated as well: see Di Maria diving and getting a penalty for Messi, while Thuram does the same and gets a yellow.
I don’t get why people on here disrespect Ronaldo for not winning a World Cup, at least he didn’t get one awarded for free .
argentina were deserved winners in all their games though. france used up their favours to advance past quarters against a team that played better
I am not sure if there is meritocracy in football? But I see some people thinking the Ronaldo vs Messi debate is like Xbox vs PlayStation although these are human beings. I am not talking about France here, but I hope people praising Messi for being the clear goat over Ronaldo are conscious that Messi was given this WC.
Edit: to WombaT about Zidane. I mostly agree with you, and if we are talking about best of all time, Messi is far ahead of Zidane. However, greatest of all time is about greatness, and unfortunately for Messi he won’t be the first to conquer Argentinian hearts. Same as Mbappe, the second star just did not feel as good as the first one, and Zidane was the one to shine in the first World Cup victory for France.
Depending on the country, people will have different GOAT: Netherlands have Cruyf, Brazil have Pelé, Argentina have Maradona and Messi, etc. When all is said and done in a few decades, Zidane will still shine bright in France, and even though Messi has been a better player, I don’t think the young French folks that are praising him right now as the GOAT will think the same in those few years.
On December 19 2022 09:51 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The reason why France lost is because of this one quote by Mbappe. The ego of it all. Destiny could not be averted.
He is a young fellow so he says a lot of shit. But the cold truth is that Argentina was highly favored by the referees throughout the tournament. In this finals alone, they were doing ridiculous physical fouls and getting away with it, numbing the French players. Indeed, when French players tried to retaliate they were not treated as well: see Di Maria diving and getting a penalty for Messi, while Thuram does the same and gets a yellow.
I don’t get why people on here disrespect Ronaldo for not winning a World Cup, at least he didn’t get one awarded for free .
argentina were deserved winners in all their games though. france used up their favours to advance past quarters against a team that played better
I am not sure if there is meritocracy in football? But I see some people thinking the Ronaldo vs Messi debate is like Xbox vs PlayStation although these are human beings. I am not talking about France here, but I hope people praising Messi for being the clear goat over Ronaldo are conscious that Messi was given this WC.
Edit: to WombaT about Zidane. I mostly agree with you, and if we are talking about best of all time, Messi is far ahead of Zidane. However, greatest of all time is about greatness, and unfortunately for Messi he won’t be the first to conquer Argentinian hearts. Same as Mbappe, the second star just did not feel as good as the first one, and Zidane was the one to shine in the first World Cup victory for France.
Depending on the country, people will have different GOAT: Netherlands have Cruyf, Brazil have Pelé, Argentina have Maradona and Messi, etc. When all is said and done in a few decades, Zidane will still shine bright in France, and even though Messi has been a better player, I don’t think the young French folks that are praising him right now as the GOAT will think the same in those few years.
Given it how?
It wasn’t 2002 where some truly awful decisions actually impacted things all that much.
As a relative neutral I don’t really mind a ‘the refs had a shit game’, because sometimes they do. I’m really not a fan of wider conspiracies about trying to fix a tournament, especially when I don’t think there’s even that many individual examples with which to generously cherry pick to make a case.
Ultimately I think France don’t have a huge amount to complain about. It was a near coin toss of them getting through against England, not a robbery but could have gone either way. Very close game and it was definitely a foul on Saka for the first goal.
I said at the time I think England pushed France to the limit, and we weren’t seeing a French side managing a game with other gears to shift into. I think that was them pushing.
That was somewhat borne out I think in the final where France were appalling in the first half, still second best for big chunks of the rest of the game. Mystifyingly so, I do wonder what this mystery virus was and how it spread throughout the camp.
But yeah greatness is an intangible thing, not evenly applied. Most consider Gareth Bale as an unfulfilled talent despite him scoring in huge finals, arguably scoring the greatest CL final goal of them all, and taking Wales to a Euros semi and their first World Cup.
On December 19 2022 09:51 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The reason why France lost is because of this one quote by Mbappe. The ego of it all. Destiny could not be averted.
He is a young fellow so he says a lot of shit. But the cold truth is that Argentina was highly favored by the referees throughout the tournament. In this finals alone, they were doing ridiculous physical fouls and getting away with it, numbing the French players. Indeed, when French players tried to retaliate they were not treated as well: see Di Maria diving and getting a penalty for Messi, while Thuram does the same and gets a yellow.
I don’t get why people on here disrespect Ronaldo for not winning a World Cup, at least he didn’t get one awarded for free .
argentina were deserved winners in all their games though. france used up their favours to advance past quarters against a team that played better
I am not sure if there is meritocracy in football? But I see some people thinking the Ronaldo vs Messi debate is like Xbox vs PlayStation although these are human beings. I am not talking about France here, but I hope people praising Messi for being the clear goat over Ronaldo are conscious that Messi was given this WC.
Edit: to WombaT about Zidane. I mostly agree with you, and if we are talking about best of all time, Messi is far ahead of Zidane. However, greatest of all time is about greatness, and unfortunately for Messi he won’t be the first to conquer Argentinian hearts. Same as Mbappe, the second star just did not feel as good as the first one, and Zidane was the one to shine in the first World Cup victory for France.
Depending on the country, people will have different GOAT: Netherlands have Cruyf, Brazil have Pelé, Argentina have Maradona and Messi, etc. When all is said and done in a few decades, Zidane will still shine bright in France, and even though Messi has been a better player, I don’t think the young French folks that are praising him right now as the GOAT will think the same in those few years.
Given it how?
It wasn’t 2002 where some truly awful decisions actually impacted things all that much.
As a relative neutral I don’t really mind a ‘the refs had a shit game’, because sometimes they do. I’m really not a fan of wider conspiracies about trying to fix a tournament, especially when I don’t think there’s even that many individual examples with which to generously cherry pick to make a case.
Ultimately I think France don’t have a huge amount to complain about. It was a near coin toss of them getting through against England, not a robbery but could have gone either way. Very close game and it was definitely a foul on Saka for the first goal.
I said at the time I think England pushed France to the limit, and we weren’t seeing a French side managing a game with other gears to shift into. I think that was them pushing.
That was somewhat borne out I think in the final where France were appalling in the first half, still second best for big chunks of the rest of the game. Mystifyingly so, I do wonder what this mystery virus was and how it spread throughout the camp.
But yeah greatness is an intangible thing, not evenly applied. Most consider Gareth Bale as an unfulfilled talent despite him scoring in huge finals, arguably scoring the greatest CL final goal of them all, and taking Wales to a Euros semi and their first World Cup.
The question is not if they are fixing the tournament (they are and admitted to it multiple times), the question is to what extent they can fix it in practice. Platini publicly admit that they rigged the WC98 bracket / pools so that France could only meet Brazil in the finals (which is the dream finals since Brazil is the greatest football nation so far). The Ronaldo9 thing is still suspect: was he really too scared to play or was he drugged or whatever? Because French Bernard Tapie unironically tried / drugged players from the opposing teams back in the day. Afaik that helped the Olympique de Marseille win the champions league. If you also take into account that a former French president helped Qatar get the WC at home, it is quite clear that we were also possibly granted advantages over the course of the WC.
In fact, a lot of French citizens wanted to boycott this WC, but the football public figures were in total damage control. We have a nice history of loving oil (pétrole) so this isn’t surprising.
Messi complaining about the ref in that game is just rich.
I'm glad for him he got the WC, he really deserves it for the great career he's had. On the merit of the WC itself, not so much. It's not great that a magician and 10 street fighters can win it. I feel this WC was one of fitness, saving energy and counters, not great teamplay.
On December 19 2022 03:51 sharkie wrote: If Mbappe is instrumental in winning multiple world cups for France he could totally become the GOAT but that is at least a decade into the future.
Let us Dream, we lost another WC finals to penalties
Worst possible way to lose a WC final yeah... But France since 1998 has been insane. 4 finals in 7 world cups. France are totally on the way to become the biggest football nation of all time
I actually think they're really far away from this. For simplicity I'm only going to look at the World Cup and confederation championships for the men and the World Cup, confederation championships, and Olympics for women (since the women's side considers the Olympics a major tournament).
France's WC placements (1st-4th) are 2/2/2/1. They hold no notable placement or appearance records. Their EURO placements (1st-3rd) are 2/1/1. Their women's team has won nothing and their best placements are 4th in the WWC and the Olympics.
Brazil's WC placements are 5/2/2/2. They have the most wins (including a back-to-back), most consecutive tournament appearances, and most consecutive top 16 placements. Their Copa America placements are 9/12/7, and they've been notably outdone by Argentina (15/14/5) and Uruguway (15/6/9). They hold no placement-related records in the Copa America.Their women's team has won 8 women's Copa America, with their best placements elsewhere being 2nd in the WWC and the Olympics.
Germany's WC placements are 4/4/4/1. They have the most top two and top 4 finishes. Their EURO placements are 3/3/3. They have the joint-most EURO championships and the joint-most knockout stage qualifications. Their women's team has won 2 WWC's (back-to-back, and only team to win multiple aside from the USA, also have a 2nd place), over half of all Women's EURO's (8/13 total, along with a 2nd place), and gold in the Olympics (as well as 3 Bronze).
Argentina's WC placements are 3/3/0/0. They have no notable placement or appearance records. Their Copa America placements are 15/14/5. Their women's team has won a women's Copa America but accomplished nothing notable in the WWC or Olympics.
Italy's WC placements are 4/2/1/1. They have no notable placement or appearance records. Their Euro placements are 2/2/0/1. They have no notable placement or appearance records. Their women's team has gotten 2nd place at the women's EURO twice, but has accomplished nothing in the WWC or Olympics.
Uruguay's WC placements are 2/0/0/3. They have no notable placement or appearance records. Their Copa America placements are 15/6/9. Their women's team has gotten 3rd place in the women's Copa America once but has accomplished nothing else.
For posterity, I'll but the USA here because they have the best women's team ever. Their WC placements are 0/0/1/0. They have no placement or appearance records. Their CONCACAF Gold Cup placements are 7/6/2 (2nd most wins) with the longest participation streak. Their Women's team has won both the World Cup and the Olympics 4 times (the most out of any team, having won consecutive titles in both) along with the CONCACAF Gold Cup 9 times (again, the most).
I think it's pretty clear that Germany, Brazil, and Argentina are in a tier of their own, with France, Italy, and Uruguay probably in the next tier down. England and Portugal would be the 3rd tier.
I think that if you only look at the men's game, there is a really strong argument for any of Germany, Brazil, or Argentina to be considered the best footballing nation; Germany only has 1 less WC trophy than Brazil with more top 4 placings. They also have the joint-most EURO trophies, the most top 3 placings, and one could argue that the EURO is harder to win than the Copa America. Brazil has won the most WC's (and won them in a more efficient manner) and has had notably more top placings in their confederation championship than Germany. However, Argentina are only two WC's behind Brazil and have won a lot more Copa Americas.
I think that if you add the women's game, Germany comes ahead by a wide margin; the German women's team is historically the 2nd best women's team in the world behind the USA and have completely dominated Europe historically. Germany is also the only nation to win both the men's and women's World Cups and the only nation to win both the men's and women's World Cup and their confederation championship. To my knowledge they're also the only nation to hold the same trophy on both sides in the same cycle (the EURO trophy, which both sides did in the mid-90's).
On December 19 2022 10:56 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Looking back at some of the past post game interviews... it really seems like Netherlands and Argentina are now mortal enemies lol
Watch the end of the Messi interview, even the reporter got scared. Can only wonder who he was talking to.
On December 19 2022 11:09 RowdierBob wrote: How good was the Martinez save on Muani’s late shot? As a former goalie it was a pretty amazing effort.
Proper moment of goalkeeper class that, unlike his behaviour afterwards (throwing the ball away and going mafia on penalty takers should be punishable by red IMHO to deter the next chancers, although he probably cleared this with coach Scaloni beforehand, given stakes)
Also, am I the only one little bit disappointed with Martinez's glove-to-genital antics at the ceremony ? Half the planet is watching and that's the best he can come up with ? Meh.
On December 19 2022 09:51 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The reason why France lost is because of this one quote by Mbappe. The ego of it all. Destiny could not be averted.
He is a young fellow so he says a lot of shit. But the cold truth is that Argentina was highly favored by the referees throughout the tournament. In this finals alone, they were doing ridiculous physical fouls and getting away with it, numbing the French players. Indeed, when French players tried to retaliate they were not treated as well: see Di Maria diving and getting a penalty for Messi, while Thuram does the same and gets a yellow.
I don’t get why people on here disrespect Ronaldo for not winning a World Cup, at least he didn’t get one awarded for free .
argentina were deserved winners in all their games though. france used up their favours to advance past quarters against a team that played better
I am not sure if there is meritocracy in football? But I see some people thinking the Ronaldo vs Messi debate is like Xbox vs PlayStation although these are human beings. I am not talking about France here, but I hope people praising Messi for being the clear goat over Ronaldo are conscious that Messi was given this WC.
Edit: to WombaT about Zidane. I mostly agree with you, and if we are talking about best of all time, Messi is far ahead of Zidane. However, greatest of all time is about greatness, and unfortunately for Messi he won’t be the first to conquer Argentinian hearts. Same as Mbappe, the second star just did not feel as good as the first one, and Zidane was the one to shine in the first World Cup victory for France.
Depending on the country, people will have different GOAT: Netherlands have Cruyf, Brazil have Pelé, Argentina have Maradona and Messi, etc. When all is said and done in a few decades, Zidane will still shine bright in France, and even though Messi has been a better player, I don’t think the young French folks that are praising him right now as the GOAT will think the same in those few years.
Given it how?
It wasn’t 2002 where some truly awful decisions actually impacted things all that much.
As a relative neutral I don’t really mind a ‘the refs had a shit game’, because sometimes they do. I’m really not a fan of wider conspiracies about trying to fix a tournament, especially when I don’t think there’s even that many individual examples with which to generously cherry pick to make a case.
Ultimately I think France don’t have a huge amount to complain about. It was a near coin toss of them getting through against England, not a robbery but could have gone either way. Very close game and it was definitely a foul on Saka for the first goal.
I said at the time I think England pushed France to the limit, and we weren’t seeing a French side managing a game with other gears to shift into. I think that was them pushing.
That was somewhat borne out I think in the final where France were appalling in the first half, still second best for big chunks of the rest of the game. Mystifyingly so, I do wonder what this mystery virus was and how it spread throughout the camp.
But yeah greatness is an intangible thing, not evenly applied. Most consider Gareth Bale as an unfulfilled talent despite him scoring in huge finals, arguably scoring the greatest CL final goal of them all, and taking Wales to a Euros semi and their first World Cup.
Well Argentina vs Netherlands had some truly awful decisions but I seriously doubt it was because it was fixed. However, Argentina was very lucky to have finished the match with 10 people and if Messi had been given a deserved yellow earlier he might have had a red towards the end?
On December 19 2022 11:09 RowdierBob wrote: How good was the Martinez save on Muani’s late shot? As a former goalie it was a pretty amazing effort.
Proper moment of goalkeeper class that, unlike his behaviour afterwards (throwing the ball away and going mafia on penalty takers should be punishable by red IMHO to deter the next chancers, although he probably cleared this with coach Scaloni beforehand, given stakes)
Also, am I the only one little bit disappointed with Martinez's glove-to-genital antics at the ceremony ? Half the planet is watching and that's the best he can come up with ? Meh.
Also football is hardly fair, but much to my surprise Argentina went and tried to win all games. In the final they had 20 shots (10 on goal) with France having half of that.
I think the french had their first shot on goal by minute 60 and Griezmann had 6 completed passes after the first 30 minutes.
Penalties are going yo be discussed to no end, but I think demeble's is a penalty, even if its a dumb one like Otamendi's. Both defenders were beaten and clipped the attacker for no reason. Others are bad luck, like Montiels hand, which he could take out on time for a shot that was going wide.
I would say Argentina deserved to win all games. Including SA where they got real unlucky considering chances created vs SA nailing 100% eff in like 3 minutes. POL and MX were Argentina attacking and the opposing side relaying on counters.
Australia was 2-0 until a shot was going off wide and a lucky bounce. Croatia felt similar to Polands game.
Both NLD and FR were the same as Australia until either Scaloni decided to switch or our phys wasnt a 100% anymore. But It wasnt like Argentina defended and depended on fouls and counters.
I wanted England to advance, they created more chances and attacked more, but football is cruel and all it taked is one missed chance to be out (which happened to Brazil as well).
On December 19 2022 09:51 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The reason why France lost is because of this one quote by Mbappe. The ego of it all. Destiny could not be averted.
He is a young fellow so he says a lot of shit. But the cold truth is that Argentina was highly favored by the referees throughout the tournament. In this finals alone, they were doing ridiculous physical fouls and getting away with it, numbing the French players. Indeed, when French players tried to retaliate they were not treated as well: see Di Maria diving and getting a penalty for Messi, while Thuram does the same and gets a yellow.
I don’t get why people on here disrespect Ronaldo for not winning a World Cup, at least he didn’t get one awarded for free .
argentina were deserved winners in all their games though. france used up their favours to advance past quarters against a team that played better
I am not sure if there is meritocracy in football? But I see some people thinking the Ronaldo vs Messi debate is like Xbox vs PlayStation although these are human beings. I am not talking about France here, but I hope people praising Messi for being the clear goat over Ronaldo are conscious that Messi was given this WC.
Edit: to WombaT about Zidane. I mostly agree with you, and if we are talking about best of all time, Messi is far ahead of Zidane. However, greatest of all time is about greatness, and unfortunately for Messi he won’t be the first to conquer Argentinian hearts. Same as Mbappe, the second star just did not feel as good as the first one, and Zidane was the one to shine in the first World Cup victory for France.
Depending on the country, people will have different GOAT: Netherlands have Cruyf, Brazil have Pelé, Argentina have Maradona and Messi, etc. When all is said and done in a few decades, Zidane will still shine bright in France, and even though Messi has been a better player, I don’t think the young French folks that are praising him right now as the GOAT will think the same in those few years.
Given it how?
It wasn’t 2002 where some truly awful decisions actually impacted things all that much.
As a relative neutral I don’t really mind a ‘the refs had a shit game’, because sometimes they do. I’m really not a fan of wider conspiracies about trying to fix a tournament, especially when I don’t think there’s even that many individual examples with which to generously cherry pick to make a case.
Ultimately I think France don’t have a huge amount to complain about. It was a near coin toss of them getting through against England, not a robbery but could have gone either way. Very close game and it was definitely a foul on Saka for the first goal.
I said at the time I think England pushed France to the limit, and we weren’t seeing a French side managing a game with other gears to shift into. I think that was them pushing.
That was somewhat borne out I think in the final where France were appalling in the first half, still second best for big chunks of the rest of the game. Mystifyingly so, I do wonder what this mystery virus was and how it spread throughout the camp.
But yeah greatness is an intangible thing, not evenly applied. Most consider Gareth Bale as an unfulfilled talent despite him scoring in huge finals, arguably scoring the greatest CL final goal of them all, and taking Wales to a Euros semi and their first World Cup.
Well Argentina vs Netherlands had some truly awful decisions but I seriously doubt it was because it was fixed. However, Argentina was very lucky to have finished the match with 10 people and if Messi had been given a deserved yellow earlier he might have had a red towards the end?
On December 19 2022 11:09 RowdierBob wrote: How good was the Martinez save on Muani’s late shot? As a former goalie it was a pretty amazing effort.
Proper moment of goalkeeper class that, unlike his behaviour afterwards (throwing the ball away and going mafia on penalty takers should be punishable by red IMHO to deter the next chancers, although he probably cleared this with coach Scaloni beforehand, given stakes)
Also, am I the only one little bit disappointed with Martinez's glove-to-genital antics at the ceremony ? Half the planet is watching and that's the best he can come up with ? Meh.
He is Argentinian
Obviously you can’t 100% fix things, but this squad got the scale tipped in their favor a weirdly high number of times. Stats 101 / stratos spear probably has the numbers in store on how many times they were advantaged compared to the mean of other teams during the tournament. Maybe it is not statistically significant (sample size probably too low, which is particularly convenient)
EPT
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