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France12911 Posts
On December 19 2022 03:38 KobraKay wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2022 03:32 zev318 wrote:
can mbappe be considered goat if he stays in france his whole career? does club level matter or just national team success That is irrelevant or at least should be. But then again i dont see mbappe as goat potential. Amazing player, chance to be a legendary player up there with the greats if he keeps pace in champions league and big tournaments but being in contention with Pele, Maradona or Messi you need to do more. Before the french fans rain down on me, notice i've also not included cronaldo there, same reasoning.
Wasn’t Pelé fighting farmers while Maradona cheated with a handball to win the WC?
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Messi has really done it. GOAT
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On December 19 2022 03:38 KobraKay wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2022 03:32 zev318 wrote:
can mbappe be considered goat if he stays in france his whole career? does club level matter or just national team success That is irrelevant or at least should be. But then again i dont see mbappe as goat potential. Amazing player, chance to be a legendary player up there with the greats if he keeps pace in champions league and big tournaments but being in contention with Pele, Maradona or Messi you need to do more. Before the french fans rain down on me, notice i've also not included cronaldo there, same reasoning.
And what set them apart in your view? what you mean by "do more", can you be specific? Ronaldo ship has sailed when he couldnt lead the Portugal far enough in international competition, 1 Euro title just simply not enough.
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So... why is Macron on the stage with FIFA officials again?
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Northern Ireland26727 Posts
On December 19 2022 03:36 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2022 03:23 WombaT wrote:On December 19 2022 03:15 Poopi wrote:On December 19 2022 03:12 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 19 2022 03:01 plasmidghost wrote:
I fully believe Mbappe wins France the 2026 World Cup Eh, that's a big question. There still needs to be a team around him (see how long it took Messi to win, and Ronaldo hasn't won it). There are definite question marks around parts of France's team, especially when you tack on 4 years of aging to everyone. Brazil's got a great team, Portugal does as well (ironically without Ronaldo), Germany has a great young lineup if they can get their shit together, England's still got a fantastic and young team, Spain looks great everywhere except for actually scoring... Lots of viable contenders for the international trophies in the coming years. Mbappe has already won a WC anyways, he is the real GOAT in the making  He won’t, but I think he’s a lock for top 5-10 Messi basically took the peak Maradona that got Napoli to a few titles over a few years, or Ronaldinho for a few years and kept that level up for 15 years. And took it up a level in terms of numbers. Mbappe is an incredible talent but I don’t think he’s ever going to hit a level where he’s a team’s best goal scorer, ball carrier and playmaker all at once. Minus some catastrophic injury, he will easily shatter the record for most goal scored in WC. If he can win one more WC title, and a couple of Champion League then he would have very strong case. He doesnt need to be another Messi to surpassed him.
I can see him, or indeed Haaland hitting those crazy numbers and being in the ballpark.
But Messi is winning all those similar things, posting similar numbers and is a more complete attacking footballer
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France12911 Posts
On December 19 2022 03:44 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2022 03:36 tigera6 wrote:On December 19 2022 03:23 WombaT wrote:On December 19 2022 03:15 Poopi wrote:On December 19 2022 03:12 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 19 2022 03:01 plasmidghost wrote:
I fully believe Mbappe wins France the 2026 World Cup Eh, that's a big question. There still needs to be a team around him (see how long it took Messi to win, and Ronaldo hasn't won it). There are definite question marks around parts of France's team, especially when you tack on 4 years of aging to everyone. Brazil's got a great team, Portugal does as well (ironically without Ronaldo), Germany has a great young lineup if they can get their shit together, England's still got a fantastic and young team, Spain looks great everywhere except for actually scoring... Lots of viable contenders for the international trophies in the coming years. Mbappe has already won a WC anyways, he is the real GOAT in the making He won’t, but I think he’s a lock for top 5-10 Messi basically took the peak Maradona that got Napoli to a few titles over a few years, or Ronaldinho for a few years and kept that level up for 15 years. And took it up a level in terms of numbers. Mbappe is an incredible talent but I don’t think he’s ever going to hit a level where he’s a team’s best goal scorer, ball carrier and playmaker all at once. Minus some catastrophic injury, he will easily shatter the record for most goal scored in WC. If he can win one more WC title, and a couple of Champion League then he would have very strong case. He doesnt need to be another Messi to surpassed him. I can see him, or indeed Haaland hitting those crazy numbers and being in the ballpark. But Messi is winning all those similar things, posting similar numbers and is a more complete attacking footballer
Only 1WC though, if Mbappe wins another one or even two I don’t see why he wouldn’t be considered GOAT.
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On December 19 2022 03:45 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2022 03:44 WombaT wrote:On December 19 2022 03:36 tigera6 wrote:On December 19 2022 03:23 WombaT wrote:On December 19 2022 03:15 Poopi wrote:On December 19 2022 03:12 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 19 2022 03:01 plasmidghost wrote:
I fully believe Mbappe wins France the 2026 World Cup Eh, that's a big question. There still needs to be a team around him (see how long it took Messi to win, and Ronaldo hasn't won it). There are definite question marks around parts of France's team, especially when you tack on 4 years of aging to everyone. Brazil's got a great team, Portugal does as well (ironically without Ronaldo), Germany has a great young lineup if they can get their shit together, England's still got a fantastic and young team, Spain looks great everywhere except for actually scoring... Lots of viable contenders for the international trophies in the coming years. Mbappe has already won a WC anyways, he is the real GOAT in the making He won’t, but I think he’s a lock for top 5-10 Messi basically took the peak Maradona that got Napoli to a few titles over a few years, or Ronaldinho for a few years and kept that level up for 15 years. And took it up a level in terms of numbers. Mbappe is an incredible talent but I don’t think he’s ever going to hit a level where he’s a team’s best goal scorer, ball carrier and playmaker all at once. Minus some catastrophic injury, he will easily shatter the record for most goal scored in WC. If he can win one more WC title, and a couple of Champion League then he would have very strong case. He doesnt need to be another Messi to surpassed him. I can see him, or indeed Haaland hitting those crazy numbers and being in the ballpark. But Messi is winning all those similar things, posting similar numbers and is a more complete attacking footballer Only 1WC though, if Mbappe wins another one or even two I don’t see why he wouldn’t be considered GOAT.
The world cup isn't everything.
He needs to win Champions Leagues too really.
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Northern Ireland26727 Posts
On December 19 2022 03:41 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2022 03:38 KobraKay wrote:On December 19 2022 03:32 zev318 wrote:
can mbappe be considered goat if he stays in france his whole career? does club level matter or just national team success That is irrelevant or at least should be. But then again i dont see mbappe as goat potential. Amazing player, chance to be a legendary player up there with the greats if he keeps pace in champions league and big tournaments but being in contention with Pele, Maradona or Messi you need to do more. Before the french fans rain down on me, notice i've also not included cronaldo there, same reasoning. Wasn’t Pelé fighting farmers while Maradona cheated with a handball to win the WC?
Different eras really.
In Pele’s day South American football was the equal, if not better than that in Europe. Outside of World Cups it’s quite difficult to compare his career to a modern player where top European leagues are indisputably the peak
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On December 19 2022 03:42 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So... why is Macron on the stage with FIFA officials again?
because he is one obviously. he personally gave qatar the world cup
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France12911 Posts
On December 19 2022 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2022 03:45 Poopi wrote:On December 19 2022 03:44 WombaT wrote:On December 19 2022 03:36 tigera6 wrote:On December 19 2022 03:23 WombaT wrote:On December 19 2022 03:15 Poopi wrote:On December 19 2022 03:12 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 19 2022 03:01 plasmidghost wrote:
I fully believe Mbappe wins France the 2026 World Cup Eh, that's a big question. There still needs to be a team around him (see how long it took Messi to win, and Ronaldo hasn't won it). There are definite question marks around parts of France's team, especially when you tack on 4 years of aging to everyone. Brazil's got a great team, Portugal does as well (ironically without Ronaldo), Germany has a great young lineup if they can get their shit together, England's still got a fantastic and young team, Spain looks great everywhere except for actually scoring... Lots of viable contenders for the international trophies in the coming years. Mbappe has already won a WC anyways, he is the real GOAT in the making He won’t, but I think he’s a lock for top 5-10 Messi basically took the peak Maradona that got Napoli to a few titles over a few years, or Ronaldinho for a few years and kept that level up for 15 years. And took it up a level in terms of numbers. Mbappe is an incredible talent but I don’t think he’s ever going to hit a level where he’s a team’s best goal scorer, ball carrier and playmaker all at once. Minus some catastrophic injury, he will easily shatter the record for most goal scored in WC. If he can win one more WC title, and a couple of Champion League then he would have very strong case. He doesnt need to be another Messi to surpassed him. I can see him, or indeed Haaland hitting those crazy numbers and being in the ballpark. But Messi is winning all those similar things, posting similar numbers and is a more complete attacking footballer Only 1WC though, if Mbappe wins another one or even two I don’t see why he wouldn’t be considered GOAT. The world cup isn't everything. He needs to win Champions Leagues too really.
Yes but it is quite clear that he will win a few, he is still super young
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How you gonna make Messi wear your weird ass bathrobe over his Argentina shirt for the historic photos..
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If Mbappe is instrumental in winning multiple world cups for France he could totally become the GOAT but that is at least a decade into the future.
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France12911 Posts
On December 19 2022 03:51 sharkie wrote:
If Mbappe is instrumental in winning multiple world cups for France he could totally become the GOAT but that is at least a decade into the future.
Let us Dream, we lost another WC finals to penalties 
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On December 19 2022 03:49 Dan HH wrote:
How you gonna make Messi wear your weird ass bathrobe over his Argentina shirt for the historic photos..
Yeah, absolute bullshit.
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On December 19 2022 03:52 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2022 03:51 sharkie wrote:
If Mbappe is instrumental in winning multiple world cups for France he could totally become the GOAT but that is at least a decade into the future.
Let us Dream, we lost another WC finals to penalties
Worst possible way to lose a WC final yeah... But France since 1998 has been insane. 4 finals in 7 world cups. France are totally on the way to become the biggest football nation of all time
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On December 19 2022 03:42 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2022 03:38 KobraKay wrote:On December 19 2022 03:32 zev318 wrote:
can mbappe be considered goat if he stays in france his whole career? does club level matter or just national team success That is irrelevant or at least should be. But then again i dont see mbappe as goat potential. Amazing player, chance to be a legendary player up there with the greats if he keeps pace in champions league and big tournaments but being in contention with Pele, Maradona or Messi you need to do more. Before the french fans rain down on me, notice i've also not included cronaldo there, same reasoning. And what set them apart in your view? what you mean by "do more", can you be specific? Ronaldo ship has sailed when he couldnt lead the Portugal far enough in international competition, 1 Euro title just simply not enough.
Yes, for sure. Ronaldo was a finisher that had some skill to score goals in several different ways and coupled that with physical prowess not matched by many specially with that skill level. That produced a gigantic amount of goals during his career and he scored a lot of times where it seemed unthinkable and bailed his teams a ton of times. BUT he could not make the team move. Mbappe has the physical prowess (I think even more acceleration than top cronaldo), has technique and a rocket of a shot and he is scoring a lot of goals. But he does not dictate the play of his team and is not having a global influence on the team. Again, potential to be a legendary player and he bails france and psg on ocasion, but none of those teams are mbappe+10. Same reason why regardless of how many goals that monster of a player that is haaland scores, i also would not rate him above potential legendary and into potential goat status.
Messi was matching Ronaldo for goals but also producing assists and being a big part of why and how the team was performing.
To properly see what i mean, ideally go back and watch some barça games when messi was mbappe's age. Not just highlights but full games. That will help ilustrate the point better.
Oh and the WC is great but to me was a non factor for messi, so for the same reason i would never hold that against Ronaldo if I was to consider him in contention for goat.
Again, this is my view. Different people see and like football for different reasons and will obviously disagree.
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On December 19 2022 03:41 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2022 03:38 KobraKay wrote:On December 19 2022 03:32 zev318 wrote:
can mbappe be considered goat if he stays in france his whole career? does club level matter or just national team success That is irrelevant or at least should be. But then again i dont see mbappe as goat potential. Amazing player, chance to be a legendary player up there with the greats if he keeps pace in champions league and big tournaments but being in contention with Pele, Maradona or Messi you need to do more. Before the french fans rain down on me, notice i've also not included cronaldo there, same reasoning. Wasn’t Pelé fighting farmers while Maradona cheated with a handball to win the WC?
Pele's record against european teams while playing for Santos was: 20 defeats, 20 draws and 90 wins. He scored 144 goals in those games.
At 30, he had 3 world cups. And when he was Mbappe's age, already had two. What he represented for the brazilian people is bigger than what Mbappe represents for the french.
It's hard to compare different eras. Pele played in an era where football wasn't even near of the level of play of nowadays. But he didn't have the training players today have either.
What we can do is compare the impact each player had in theirrespective time. And Pele was on a whole other level between 58-70 than Mbappe was in 18-22. Of course future time will tell, but I think Mbappe has a really long way to go before being in the same category of the all times great. Zidane, for exemple, is still a class above in my opinion.
Besides, even if Mbappe wins next year's champions league, that just means Messi will have another one in his carreer too.
And isn't the french league pretty much Europe's "farmers league"? I wonder how long he will stay at PSG, but for sure I would like to see him a more competitive league in the future. I still can't believe Neymar went to PSG while at his peak...
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On December 19 2022 04:29 KobraKay wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2022 03:42 tigera6 wrote:On December 19 2022 03:38 KobraKay wrote:On December 19 2022 03:32 zev318 wrote:
can mbappe be considered goat if he stays in france his whole career? does club level matter or just national team success That is irrelevant or at least should be. But then again i dont see mbappe as goat potential. Amazing player, chance to be a legendary player up there with the greats if he keeps pace in champions league and big tournaments but being in contention with Pele, Maradona or Messi you need to do more. Before the french fans rain down on me, notice i've also not included cronaldo there, same reasoning. And what set them apart in your view? what you mean by "do more", can you be specific? Ronaldo ship has sailed when he couldnt lead the Portugal far enough in international competition, 1 Euro title just simply not enough. Yes, for sure. Ronaldo was a finisher that had some skill to score goals in several different ways and coupled that with physical prowess not matched by many specially with that skill level. That produced a gigantic amount of goals during his career and he scored a lot of times where it seemed unthinkable and bailed his teams a ton of times. BUT he could not make the team move. Mbappe has the physical prowess (I think even more acceleration than top cronaldo), has technique and a rocket of a shot and he is scoring a lot of goals. But he does not dictate the play of his team and is not having a global influence on the team. Again, potential to be a legendary player and he bails france and psg on ocasion, but none of those teams are mbappe+10. Same reason why regardless of how many goals that monster of a player that is haaland scores, i also would not rate him above potential legendary and into potential goat status. Messi was matching Ronaldo for goals but also producing assists and being a big part of why and how the team was performing. To properly see what i mean, ideally go back and watch some barça games when messi was mbappe's age. Not just highlights but full games. That will help ilustrate the point better. Oh and the WC is great but to me was a non factor for messi, so for the same reason i would never hold that against Ronaldo if I was to consider him in contention for goat. Again, this is my view. Different people see and like football for different reasons and will obviously disagree.
At mbappes age messi wasnt dictating play. Xavi/iniesta were
Messi has become the playmaker of barca in his later years. At the younger years he was a lethal forward
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What a crazy game. I normally try to stay away from hyperbole immediately after an event but this probably was the best world/euro finals I've seen, starting with the 1990 world cup, and looking back further maybe one of, it not the best ever.
Argentina arguably deserved to win more, yet I would have felt as little pity for them had they lost as most many neutral fans had felt for germany after losing to japan 
It's also probably the first time I saw a ref in a world cup/euro final who didnt lose the plot but actually stepped up when it was a challenging game to referee. In the first few minutes iirc players were in his face after every call and there were several collisions that could have led to emotions getting the better of the players, but overall given the occasion, I thought it was remarkable that things never really escalated. Yeah maybe the 1st/3rd penalty were soft, but imo very much in line with the current (interpretation of the) laws. Technically speaking, I suppose the 3rd argentinian goal could (should?) have been ruled out since multiple argentinian subs seemed to be running onto the field well before the ball was over the line. But it would have been a totally ignorant thing to do and I'm sure such incidents happen actually more often and are always ignorant. But I wouldnt be surprised if tomorow some social media channels are full of a screenshot depicting this very scene.
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EPT
