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On June 24 2020 20:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 06:46 Artisreal wrote:On June 24 2020 06:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 24 2020 06:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 24 2020 06:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 24 2020 05:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 24 2020 05:07 farvacola wrote:On June 24 2020 05:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 24 2020 05:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 24 2020 04:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
He is the first man to have crossed the atlantic. That's what we celebrate. He could eat kittens for breakfast and have thought he landed on the moon, he would still be one of the great figure of human exploration.
That's not that difficult really. Who is "we"? I just realized after a quick think I am not interested in discussing further with you. Good bye  Maybe if we constructed a statue of GH you’d be able to understand him better, let’s get to work on that. Otherwise, there are plenty of others here who are still wondering why it is that a nation full of statues of Columbus and Jefferson is also full of people who have startlingly incomplete notions of what those people did. So far the "we" I've seen Biff referring to are himself, danglars, Trump, and those upstanding Philly gentlemen with bats calling the peoples Columbus insisted until death were Asian "savages" while assaulting the journalist that asked for their thoughts on Columbus cutting off the hands of Taíno people that didn't bring him enough gold "We" mean us as a society. And you understood that well enough the first time. How full of it can you be at the end? Now one more time, stop discussing my posts to strawman the shit out of them. I understand that you are more comfortable with strawmans, little spikes and disguised personal attacks than substantial explanations of those slogans you don't quite understand yourself but leave me out of it. There is no content to any of the discussion I have had with you outside cheap indignation and vague reference to thinkers you haven't read. Leave. Me. Alone. Generally if you want to be left alone you wouldn't continue to argue and add in a bunch of other nonsense about slogans and unsubstantiated accusations of me not reading the people I reference. I can leave you out of it, but I'm still going to make my points about the ridiculousness of the position you articulated when it comes up. I've told you I didn't want to continue this obnoxious joke of dialogue with you and next post you say "As Biff said [insert a fucking stupid strawman]" or even better "considering how absurd Biff position [never explain what's absurd about it, never make own position even known, if there is one]". You did that last time, you do that again, stop doing it. The day you are able to substantiate anything at all, you are free to criticize my position. But you don't substantiate shit. In fact at the moment all you do in this thread is: 1. Cheap indignation directed at people "Columbus was cutting hands!" "Biden is caging children!" "Jefferson was the worst person in history" "policemen are the scum of the earth" with exactly zero reflection, zero nuance and zero thought. 2. Spout slogans that you are totally unable to explain "Abolish the police". Fucking hell, it's been good to read an interview by Vitale to see what that was all about, considering you have been totally unable in years being asked about it to even start giving a rational answer. I won't even start with "end capitalism" and the likes. 3. Reclaim yourself from thinkers you, yes, haven't read. You say something totally baroque. Someone asks you to explain. You say "read Baldwin" or "I am a marxist" or my favourite "some people have been working on years on that". Well, if you are a marxist, I am looking forward hearing about how well historical materialism is doing and how very not obsolete at all his theory of value is. Now I've lost a lot of time going through your attacks (because I don't think we can call that a discussion, there is no content in any of your posts), and I am done. So one last time. Stop quoting me especially if it's for one of your cheap strawmans. I am not interested. Can users please stop demanding from GH to leave them alone while at the same time engaging him time and again to have the last word. It's patronising and silly. My problem is not to be engaged by GH. I have no problem per se discussing with him whatsoever - and yes I have engaged him many times (how could I not, he makes up for half the thread). My problem is that he quotes me either to strawman the shit out of me with his signature fake indignation mashed up with his condescending tone - or to say I am saying absurd things without ever explaining why. Like that kind of bullshit: Show nested quote +Pretty sure LL, Simberto, and myself all come at it from different political bends with different prescriptions, what we all recognized is the blatant absurdity of what Biff is suggesting. ... and that straight after having tried to get to know what was so absurd unsuccessfully for hours, I told him I was kind of done with a discussion going nowhere. Twice. The day he engages me with an idea or an argument, I won't ask him to leave me alone. And I'm perfectly fine if someone has arguments to oppose me to support that my position is absurd (I started this conversation by saying that I think him among others don't seem to understand why governments back up banks - but I explained why). He doesn't even try. And I think that makes the way he discusses is simply unacceptable. So it's a matter of content, not personal dislike.
The problem isn't "GH leave me alone" or not "GH leave me alone" - Artisreal correctly points out the problem here is "GH leave me alone, but take this last parting swipe from me before doing so." Comes of as rather petty; if you really wanted the discussion to end you wouldn't need that last parting swipe. Seems more like a desire to get in that last word, which is petty enough.
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On June 24 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
I just want to apologize for the neophyte comment before, I forgot how bad it was when things got political outside of the the politics thread.
"Have you guys heard about the presumption of innocence?! Doesn't matter, I'm going to repeat it in chorus with other shitposters until we've distracted and drowned out any productive discussion".
I'm thankful for you guys on your worst days.
🤮
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On June 24 2020 22:45 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
I just want to apologize for the neophyte comment before, I forgot how bad it was when things got political outside of the the politics thread.
"Have you guys heard about the presumption of innocence?! Doesn't matter, I'm going to repeat it in chorus with other shitposters until we've distracted and drowned out any productive discussion".
I'm thankful for you guys on your worst days.
🤮
I'd say even you but I wouldn't mean it and you don't really post in the actual thread, just shitposts like this here.
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On June 24 2020 20:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
My problem is that he quotes me either to strawman the shit out of me with his signature fake indignation mashed up with his condescending tone - or to say I am saying absurd things without ever explaining why.
Hey Biff remember that time when I expressed a standard anticapitalist position and you said I was Lenin, then told me not to speak if I have nothing to say when I reacted against that characterization?
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On June 24 2020 22:36 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 20:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 24 2020 06:46 Artisreal wrote:On June 24 2020 06:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 24 2020 06:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 24 2020 06:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 24 2020 05:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 24 2020 05:07 farvacola wrote:On June 24 2020 05:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 24 2020 05:01 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Who is "we"? I just realized after a quick think I am not interested in discussing further with you. Good bye Maybe if we constructed a statue of GH you’d be able to understand him better, let’s get to work on that. Otherwise, there are plenty of others here who are still wondering why it is that a nation full of statues of Columbus and Jefferson is also full of people who have startlingly incomplete notions of what those people did. So far the "we" I've seen Biff referring to are himself, danglars, Trump, and those upstanding Philly gentlemen with bats calling the peoples Columbus insisted until death were Asian "savages" while assaulting the journalist that asked for their thoughts on Columbus cutting off the hands of Taíno people that didn't bring him enough gold "We" mean us as a society. And you understood that well enough the first time. How full of it can you be at the end? Now one more time, stop discussing my posts to strawman the shit out of them. I understand that you are more comfortable with strawmans, little spikes and disguised personal attacks than substantial explanations of those slogans you don't quite understand yourself but leave me out of it. There is no content to any of the discussion I have had with you outside cheap indignation and vague reference to thinkers you haven't read. Leave. Me. Alone. Generally if you want to be left alone you wouldn't continue to argue and add in a bunch of other nonsense about slogans and unsubstantiated accusations of me not reading the people I reference. I can leave you out of it, but I'm still going to make my points about the ridiculousness of the position you articulated when it comes up. I've told you I didn't want to continue this obnoxious joke of dialogue with you and next post you say "As Biff said [insert a fucking stupid strawman]" or even better "considering how absurd Biff position [never explain what's absurd about it, never make own position even known, if there is one]". You did that last time, you do that again, stop doing it. The day you are able to substantiate anything at all, you are free to criticize my position. But you don't substantiate shit. In fact at the moment all you do in this thread is: 1. Cheap indignation directed at people "Columbus was cutting hands!" "Biden is caging children!" "Jefferson was the worst person in history" "policemen are the scum of the earth" with exactly zero reflection, zero nuance and zero thought. 2. Spout slogans that you are totally unable to explain "Abolish the police". Fucking hell, it's been good to read an interview by Vitale to see what that was all about, considering you have been totally unable in years being asked about it to even start giving a rational answer. I won't even start with "end capitalism" and the likes. 3. Reclaim yourself from thinkers you, yes, haven't read. You say something totally baroque. Someone asks you to explain. You say "read Baldwin" or "I am a marxist" or my favourite "some people have been working on years on that". Well, if you are a marxist, I am looking forward hearing about how well historical materialism is doing and how very not obsolete at all his theory of value is. Now I've lost a lot of time going through your attacks (because I don't think we can call that a discussion, there is no content in any of your posts), and I am done. So one last time. Stop quoting me especially if it's for one of your cheap strawmans. I am not interested. Can users please stop demanding from GH to leave them alone while at the same time engaging him time and again to have the last word. It's patronising and silly. My problem is not to be engaged by GH. I have no problem per se discussing with him whatsoever - and yes I have engaged him many times (how could I not, he makes up for half the thread). My problem is that he quotes me either to strawman the shit out of me with his signature fake indignation mashed up with his condescending tone - or to say I am saying absurd things without ever explaining why. Like that kind of bullshit: Pretty sure LL, Simberto, and myself all come at it from different political bends with different prescriptions, what we all recognized is the blatant absurdity of what Biff is suggesting. ... and that straight after having tried to get to know what was so absurd unsuccessfully for hours, I told him I was kind of done with a discussion going nowhere. Twice. The day he engages me with an idea or an argument, I won't ask him to leave me alone. And I'm perfectly fine if someone has arguments to oppose me to support that my position is absurd (I started this conversation by saying that I think him among others don't seem to understand why governments back up banks - but I explained why). He doesn't even try. And I think that makes the way he discusses is simply unacceptable. So it's a matter of content, not personal dislike. The problem isn't "GH leave me alone" or not "GH leave me alone" - Artisreal correctly points out the problem here is "GH leave me alone, but take this last parting swipe from me before doing so." Comes of as rather petty; if you really wanted the discussion to end you wouldn't need that last parting swipe. Seems more like a desire to get in that last word, which is petty enough.
Read the thread and you will realize that in both instances I told him I was done with no further argumentation before he came back charging, both times with one of his signature shitposts. And that's where, both time, I explained to him why I am not interested in continuing the discussion and why I would like him to stop quoting me.
It's not that I want to avoid the discussion or just throw a parting arrow and expect no answers. It's that both times he didn't seem to understand what the problem was and kept requoting me with the same bullshit.
And I would NEVER have that problem with you, or actually anyone in this thread because you actually provide ideas and arguments rather than repeating ad nauseam that what the other party is saying is absurd and ahistorical without bothering to explain why.
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On June 24 2020 23:15 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 20:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
My problem is that he quotes me either to strawman the shit out of me with his signature fake indignation mashed up with his condescending tone - or to say I am saying absurd things without ever explaining why. Hey Biff remember that time when I expressed a standard anticapitalist position and you said I was Lenin, then told me not to speak if I have nothing to say when I reacted against that characterization?
When you told me I was a parasite because I said owning a coffee shop seemed like fine to me?
Yeah I remember. Good times.
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On June 24 2020 06:47 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 06:46 Artisreal wrote:On June 24 2020 06:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 24 2020 06:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 24 2020 06:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 24 2020 05:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 24 2020 05:07 farvacola wrote:On June 24 2020 05:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 24 2020 05:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 24 2020 04:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
He is the first man to have crossed the atlantic. That's what we celebrate. He could eat kittens for breakfast and have thought he landed on the moon, he would still be one of the great figure of human exploration.
That's not that difficult really. Who is "we"? I just realized after a quick think I am not interested in discussing further with you. Good bye Maybe if we constructed a statue of GH you’d be able to understand him better, let’s get to work on that. Otherwise, there are plenty of others here who are still wondering why it is that a nation full of statues of Columbus and Jefferson is also full of people who have startlingly incomplete notions of what those people did. So far the "we" I've seen Biff referring to are himself, danglars, Trump, and those upstanding Philly gentlemen with bats calling the peoples Columbus insisted until death were Asian "savages" while assaulting the journalist that asked for their thoughts on Columbus cutting off the hands of Taíno people that didn't bring him enough gold "We" mean us as a society. And you understood that well enough the first time. How full of it can you be at the end? Now one more time, stop discussing my posts to strawman the shit out of them. I understand that you are more comfortable with strawmans, little spikes and disguised personal attacks than substantial explanations of those slogans you don't quite understand yourself but leave me out of it. There is no content to any of the discussion I have had with you outside cheap indignation and vague reference to thinkers you haven't read. Leave. Me. Alone. Generally if you want to be left alone you wouldn't continue to argue and add in a bunch of other nonsense about slogans and unsubstantiated accusations of me not reading the people I reference. I can leave you out of it, but I'm still going to make my points about the ridiculousness of the position you articulated when it comes up. I've told you I didn't want to continue this obnoxious joke of dialogue with you and next post you say "As Biff said [insert a fucking stupid strawman]" or even better "considering how absurd Biff position [never explain what's absurd about it, never make own position even known, if there is one]". You did that last time, you do that again, stop doing it. The day you are able to substantiate anything at all, you are free to criticize my position. But you don't substantiate shit. In fact at the moment all you do in this thread is: 1. Cheap indignation directed at people "Columbus was cutting hands!" "Biden is caging children!" "Jefferson was the worst person in history" "policemen are the scum of the earth" with exactly zero reflection, zero nuance and zero thought. 2. Spout slogans that you are totally unable to explain "Abolish the police". Fucking hell, it's been good to read an interview by Vitale to see what that was all about, considering you have been totally unable in years being asked about it to even start giving a rational answer. I won't even start with "end capitalism" and the likes. 3. Reclaim yourself from thinkers you, yes, haven't read. You say something totally baroque. Someone asks you to explain. You say "read Baldwin" or "I am a marxist" or my favourite "some people have been working on years on that". Well, if you are a marxist, I am looking forward hearing about how well historical materialism is doing and how very not obsolete at all his theory of value is. Now I've lost a lot of time going through your attacks (because I don't think we can call that a discussion, there is no content in any of your posts), and I am done. So one last time. Stop quoting me especially if it's for one of your cheap strawmans. I am not interested. Can users please stop demanding from GH to leave them alone while at the same time engaging him time and again to have the last word. It's patronising and silly. I concur, but would generalize. Keeping the thread in a readable state requires that folks have the grace to bow out without trying for the last word, regardless of the poster in question.
LOL please, this is the internet.
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While true, I like to think TL does its collective best to aim above the internet quotidian
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You guys should read the conversation; in neither case was it about that. I didn't ask GH to stop answering me, I asked him not to quote / strawman me while talking to others after our discussion was over. It was never about continuing tge conversation with me or having the last word.
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On June 24 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
I just want to apologize for the neophyte comment before, I forgot how bad it was when things got political outside of the the politics thread.
"Have you guys heard about the presumption of innocence?! Doesn't matter, I'm going to repeat it in chorus with other shitposters until we've distracted and drowned out any productive discussion".
I'm thankful for you guys on your worst days.
Didn’t know what you were referring to, then I noticed and read through the SC2 General thread. Fuck, man.
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On June 26 2020 10:51 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
I just want to apologize for the neophyte comment before, I forgot how bad it was when things got political outside of the the politics thread.
"Have you guys heard about the presumption of innocence?! Doesn't matter, I'm going to repeat it in chorus with other shitposters until we've distracted and drowned out any productive discussion".
I'm thankful for you guys on your worst days.
Didn’t know what you were referring to, then I noticed and read through the SC2 General thread. Fuck, man.
Same thing.
That's intense, but I have to say I am not that surprised unfortunately.
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Bit late to this discussion, but this seems to be a classic case of GH supporters deciding that something is fine when GH does it, but not fine when somebody else does something similar. Artisreal does not care when GH does the same, asks people to leave him alone whilst constantly replying to them, and simply cannot leave without the last word.
Oh and I just want to add, there is no student or master relationship or acolytes. That is exactly whats wrong with the US pol thread. The idea and attitude that a person is somehow a master and everyone should be sycophantic as a student be to an enlightened master. We should all be equals. Or equals before the before the mods. *Some may be more equal than others.
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It’s not just mods, posters who frequently contribute and otherwise engage in community here in prominent ways are afforded more leeway as a general rule.
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That's why I wrote *Some may be more equal than others. It's part levity and part recognition that some are afforded more leeway. But as US pol should be, the idea that there are masters and students in the US pol is not one I recognise. That some people may act as if there is, with the attitude of such governing their behaviour, does not infringe on mine.
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I'm no teacher, I just spent years VERY slowly and painfully winning people slightly more to "my side". I can't even take credit for most of it as society generally has shifted to make some of what bothered me unacceptable (The "Dog's Name is N****r [my censoring], deal with it" thread comes to mind).
We're certainly having a collective, I'll say... moment, with the rash of documented police violence, BLM actions, and most recently a bunch of the misogyny and a tiny bit of the racism (mentioned on the Dota side) in gaming becoming a larger topic. Who knows how it turns out.
While I don't think it's time for anyone or us as a community to take any victory laps, I have several times now expressed my pleasure with how it's been handled here relative to other venues. Though I guess in the least bootlicky way possible I haven't specifically acknowledged moderation. The note on the hot threads (which I gathered is the culmination of a lengthy discussion) is appreciated.
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On June 24 2020 23:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 23:15 Nebuchad wrote:On June 24 2020 20:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
My problem is that he quotes me either to strawman the shit out of me with his signature fake indignation mashed up with his condescending tone - or to say I am saying absurd things without ever explaining why. Hey Biff remember that time when I expressed a standard anticapitalist position and you said I was Lenin, then told me not to speak if I have nothing to say when I reacted against that characterization? When you told me I was a parasite because I said owning a coffee shop seemed like fine to me? Yeah I remember. Good times.
To be fair he called you a parasite because the only reason you’d want to own a coffee shop is to absorb the value generated by your employees. It was a pretty straight forward line of questions that led to a pretty definitive statement that boiled down to you only wanting to do the thing if it meant you could be a parasite.
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On June 26 2020 23:48 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 23:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 24 2020 23:15 Nebuchad wrote:On June 24 2020 20:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
My problem is that he quotes me either to strawman the shit out of me with his signature fake indignation mashed up with his condescending tone - or to say I am saying absurd things without ever explaining why. Hey Biff remember that time when I expressed a standard anticapitalist position and you said I was Lenin, then told me not to speak if I have nothing to say when I reacted against that characterization? When you told me I was a parasite because I said owning a coffee shop seemed like fine to me? Yeah I remember. Good times. To be fair he called you a parasite because the only reason you’d want to own a coffee shop is to absorb the value generated by your employees. It was a pretty straight forward line of questions that led to a pretty definitive statement that boiled down to you only wanting to do the thing if it meant you could be a parasite.
To be even fairer, I'm pretty sure I never called him a parasite, only the person that he described in his hypothetical.
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I know I hurted you a bit by saying that was textbook bolshevism, Neb, but to my defense, I never, ever in my life encounter anyone who held a line of reasoning like that.
I know you think it's totally textbook leftism and absolutely normal, and that you didn't believe my reaction to be genuine, but I've met a lot of leftists and this kind of completely unnuanced, à-la-lettre marxism is something that I genuinely didn't know existed outside maybe North Korea.
Of all the baroque ideas I have encountered talking politics with a lot of people, the notion that employing a barrista (because that's what we were talking about - the idea was never to start Starbucks Coffee) made one an exploiter, and that finding that normal was "symptomatic of my parasitic mindset" (those are your words) are the most alien to me, and in my opinion, the most disconnected to any kind of reality and any professional experience I have had in my life.
But the world is a big place, there is room for people with all kind of ideas, and if my answer came out as overly edgy or aggressive, I do apologize - my goal is not to hurt your feelings. Things do get heated sometimes, and I have, genuinely, nothing against you.
On June 26 2020 23:48 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 23:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 24 2020 23:15 Nebuchad wrote:On June 24 2020 20:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
My problem is that he quotes me either to strawman the shit out of me with his signature fake indignation mashed up with his condescending tone - or to say I am saying absurd things without ever explaining why. Hey Biff remember that time when I expressed a standard anticapitalist position and you said I was Lenin, then told me not to speak if I have nothing to say when I reacted against that characterization? When you told me I was a parasite because I said owning a coffee shop seemed like fine to me? Yeah I remember. Good times. To be fair he called you a parasite because the only reason you’d want to own a coffee shop is to absorb the value generated by your employees. It was a pretty straight forward line of questions that led to a pretty definitive statement that boiled down to you only wanting to do the thing if it meant you could be a parasite.
Nop. The discussion was wether or not it was ok to own a coffe shop and to employ someone to work in there.
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Generally speaking someone who owns a coffee shop makes almost all of their money from their work. Their situation would virtually not change if their shop was a worker co-op instead. The issue with your hypothetical was always that you created this completely unrealistic person that would be unwilling to open a coffee shop if that didn't give them the chance to exploit their workers. This is a parasitic mindset, literally by definition, I am just describing the reality that I'm given in this hypothetical.
When you talk about coffee shop owners to people they think of actual coffee shop owners, you know, real people. That's why they don't have a negative reaction. That's also why you chose them to defend capitalism instead of actual CEOs that make most of their money from what they own rather than their work, and then gave that imaginary coffee shop owner the attributes of a bloodsucking CEO in order to ease us into a defense of those attributes; but again, you did that on purpose.
The notion that you talk to a lot of people on the anticapitalist left and none of them gave you the "extreme" position that capitalist working relations are a negative thing that should be fought against, which is the pretty much the definition of being anticapitalist, is unbelievable - and I mean it, I don't believe you. You are literally insulting all of these people's intelligence, you're implying that they're really capitalists but they're a bit silly, maybe they think they look cool and extra-rebellious by stating that they are not. I have a higher opinion of your leftist friends than this.
Also something like 95% of your contribution to the Politics thread is taking an idea that you don't like, whether on your left or on your right, and stating that it's bad and only idiots would believe it, so pardon me if I'm suspicious about your goal not being conflict.
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I don't really want too go to far into this here because this is not the politics thread, but yeah, that makes absolutely zero sense to me. I won't ask you about your own experience, but do you even know someone who started a business - be it a food truck or something like that?
And again, if you don't want to be called a bolshevik, don't tell people they have a parasitic mindset. I know you think it's appropriate, but then again, so do I to say that you think like Lenin - although to be fair to him, Lenin got more flexible than that after 1922 -, so if you want me to abstain, maybe don't insult me in the first place. You can find other words and I will find other comparisons.
About the 95%, I don't think that's correct, really. My two last discussions were to challenge the idea that Sweden is a great place because it is full of Swedes, and that topping down statues of explorers or political giants when they did really bad things independently of their contribution is imo not a great idea.
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EPT
