EPTUS Politics Feedback Thread - Page 254
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21951 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5296 Posts
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KwarK
United States43212 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5296 Posts
colour arose as a descriptive group characteristic because people doing the subjugation happened to be 'the same'(belonging to the same group). if you pick colour as a needed attribute for subjugation, then you(general) fail at history('brown' people were slave traffickers extraordinaire; millions upon millions of black people were traded by the arabs). subjugation didn't happen because colours existed but because practical/pragmatic reasons existed(white on white or black on black was some of the most vicious subjugation that ever existed). historically, groups of people subjugated other groups of people for various reasons: because why not, because they could, because they needed something, because they feared(preventive measure) those others, ... and so on. whiteness is not a curse that some get born with which makes them subjugate others by default. ERRC+Roma vs Romania: ...The Court also found that race discrimination was a “causal factor” in this brutality, because the police were “expecting the applicants to be criminals because of their ethnic origin”. According to the Court, “the applicants were targeted because they were Roma and because the authorities perceived the Roma community as anti-social and criminal”. that is very likely/totally true, but so are the statistics that give weight to that logic+ Show Spoiler +racial profiling is illegal in EU but there are 'gems' like Suppression of "Romani crime" popping up every now and then. The Slovak Interior Minister has alleged that even though crime rates in Slovakia have been halved during the past 10 years, in Romani settlements they are not declining, but either stagnating or even growing in some localities - and in his view, it is unavoidable that measures aimed at suppressing "Romani crime" must now be undertaken. "For example, in the district of Krompachy, the Romani community comprises approximately 26 % of the inhabitants and 70 to 80 % of the criminal activity, and that is something that has to change," news server SME.sk reported him as saying - despite the fact that crime statistics disaggregated by ethnicity are supposedly not officially kept by Slovakia. statistics aside, that's a pretty fucked up stance to have to begin with. the policemen were shits because professionally they didn't do their jobs and because personally they drank the group identity/stereotyping koolaid. in America you have the same issue(in some states):+ Show Spoiler + In October, The Oregonian/OregonLive obtained a flier for a class hosted by the Clackamas County Sheriff's Office and scheduled for December. The class, called "Without Mercy: Criminal Gypsies/Travelers & the Elderly," was canceled shortly after The Oregonian/OregonLive inquired about it. But the fact that law enforcement agencies agree to host the training, which is offered by Gryphon Training Group, points to an issue with Romani stereotypes that is difficult to quantify, as data about crime within the community is scarce. ... Stereotypes persist for generations Carol Silverman, professor of anthropology and folklore at the University of Oregon and an advocate for the Romani people, said the class flier reinforces stereotypes that have existed for hundreds of years. "All you have to do is say the word 'gypsy' or 'Roma,'" Silverman said, "and the police will count you as a criminal." maybe all this is tangential and maybe that distinction(colour - descriptive vs prescriptive) when put in a different context is irrelevant, but my main point here was that people are taught to act racist whilst being born with a strong affinity for group identity which gets exploited. Racial Affinity Groups are all the rage at the moment but i don't know, i find the whole thing to narrow/exclusive of other races(everyone blames the whites, at least in US) to have meaningful outcomes. RAGs offer a structure of inquiry and can address many needs. They support us in exploring what has been forbidden, forgotten, and unhealed. For example, in a RAG, white people can discover together their group identity. They can cultivate racial solidarity and compassion and support each other in sitting with the discomfort, confusion, and numbness that often accompany white racial awakening. They can also discern white privilege and its impact without the aid of or dependence on POC. White people who have formed RAGs report that they recognized their collective commonality and shared history, as well as the impact that their privilege has had on other races and on each RAG member. so assuming all that guilt-trip works, the whites buy all of it, what do you think it'll happen? ... nothing.every dude goes to his 'group' and tries to get a head start in life because that's what happened since the dawn of humanity, regardless of ones colour. 'privilege' is a universal feature in our society which always was and always will be group bound. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Or what you write about "it's you, not them." If you care so much, perhaps you better make your own thread than insert it into a conversation that has nothing to do with what Gorsameth wrote. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9005 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
But now that we know, we can fairly blame Gorsameth right? | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5296 Posts
On August 06 2019 03:52 Dangermousecatdog wrote: i didn't call him a racist, i meant: it's him the one to blame for what he 'sees' happening = racism rising up to replace ... racism; the logical framework in which he works is responsible for that.That's all very nice and all xM(Z, but what relevance has that got to do with what Gorsameth wrote? ...nothing. Or what you write about "it's you, not them." If you care so much, perhaps you better make your own thread than insert it into a conversation that has nothing to do with what Gorsameth wrote. white supremacy isn't to blame for today's actions that's to vague to make any sense what so ever.when white supremacists are guilty of something then sure, they're to blame; ... i've nothing else here. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9005 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On August 06 2019 04:08 xM(Z wrote: i didn't call him a racist, i meant: it's him the one to blame for what he 'sees' happening = racism rising up to replace ... racism; the logical framework in which he works is responsible for that. that's to vague to make any sense what so ever. when white supremacists are guilty of something then sure, they're to blame; ... i've nothing else here. I never said that Gorsameth was a racist, nor that you called him a racist. What a curious reaction you have. It's as if you are replying to some invisible conversation that is not written here. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23460 Posts
On August 05 2019 23:10 Gorsameth wrote: Is there some universal law that says that when a racist gets banned a new one must rise up to take his place? Most of the time they are just comfortable with having someone else advocate their arguments so as to avoid being called the dreaded r -word themselves. When you take that one away they only see the "lunatic left" or whatever circle jerkin and feel compelled to speak up. There's a lot more that casually read the thread and don't post in it. Generally though you'll find that the arguments will get worse and typically the more racism you shut down the more incoherent and outdated it becomes. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21951 Posts
On August 06 2019 05:24 GreenHorizons wrote: yeah, makes sense that a lurker would feel compelled speak up after a while.Most of the time they are just comfortable with having someone else advocate their arguments so as to avoid being called the dreaded r -word themselves. When you take that one away they only see the "lunatic left" or whatever circle jerkin and feel compelled to speak up. There's a lot more that casually read the thread and don't post in it. Generally though you'll find that the arguments will get worse and typically the more racism you shut down the more incoherent and outdated it becomes. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5296 Posts
On August 06 2019 05:24 GreenHorizons wrote: or, that is the default reaction of any person not schooled into your take on racism.Most of the time they are just comfortable with having someone else advocate their arguments so as to avoid being called the dreaded r -word themselves. When you take that one away they only see the "lunatic left" or whatever circle jerkin and feel compelled to speak up. There's a lot more that casually read the thread and don't post in it. Generally though you'll find that the arguments will get worse and typically the more racism you shut down the more incoherent and outdated it becomes. you know, someone that has never been inside a Porsche dealership, has never taken a bank loan, never had to do with the police and so on ... maybe there's a lot more because more and more of them have never experienced the privilege you're talking about. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5296 Posts
i see the privilege you're talking about as nepotism(or, something very, very similar to it) and fail to grasp its systemic side. ex:there's a job opening, the interviewer is white. 17 people apply: 7 black, 10 white. we assume the black people stand no chance/lose by default because 'privilege'(as per the argument presented here). you're left with 10 whites of which one gets the job. question: how did those other 9 whites experience 'the privilege' in that case, and what would you take away from them to make them consciously experience it?. Edit: On August 06 2019 04:22 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: the actor is the prop; the writing, the script, the message, is the star.It isn't racism replacing racism. It's racists replacing other racists. The actor is the star of the show, would you agree? | ||
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KwarK
United States43212 Posts
White privilege is also less good than wealthy privilege, assuming all else is equal, but that’s a little too nuanced to explain to white guys in Shittown Alabama. That white privilege can exist while them still being less privileged overall than a black guy not born in Shittown. We need some overall privilege quotient of which skin colour is just one component so they can reconcile the reality that they’re white and fucked with the knowledge that racism exists and fucks over black people. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5296 Posts
what's your end point here?, how would you repay(if desired) what the unprivileged lost through generations?, based on what?, can you make do with an apology? ... etcetcetc. for that second part you'd need data, present day data, then an argument along those lines could be made; maybe. Edit: even with a "privilege quotient of which skin colour is just one component", i can't see colour making it pass 5, or 4(1 being wealth) | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23460 Posts
On August 07 2019 00:50 xM(Z wrote: i'd say yes, 'cause there so much one can attribute to his skills; doubtful about the americans thou, and that's just by reading topics/posts: seems like every little thing they do is such a personal achievement, that no one should dare question it. i see the privilege you're talking about as nepotism(or, something very, very similar to it) and fail to grasp its systemic side. ex:there's a job opening, the interviewer is white. 17 people apply: 7 black, 10 white. we assume the black people stand no chance/lose by default because 'privilege'(as per the argument presented here). you're left with 10 whites of which one gets the job. question: how did those other 9 whites experience 'the privilege' in that case, and what would you take away from them to make them consciously experience it?. Kwark pretty much summed it up but to suss it out a bit in your example. ~3 Black people didn't even get an interview despite being equally qualified to the 9 white guys who did but didn't get the job. The privilege is white guys who didn't get the job got the opportunity to demonstrate their fitness for it in a face to face interaction with someone that likely shares some affinity for whiteness in an office where they could stumble across others who do as well. Privilege is like a luck modifier, not a mario star (although extreme wealth/power privilege seems to come damn close). | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9005 Posts
On August 07 2019 00:50 xM(Z wrote: i'd say yes, 'cause there so much one can attribute to his skills; doubtful about the americans thou, and that's just by reading topics/posts: seems like every little thing they do is such a personal achievement, that no one should dare question it. i see the privilege you're talking about as nepotism(or, something very, very similar to it) and fail to grasp its systemic side. ex:there's a job opening, the interviewer is white. 17 people apply: 7 black, 10 white. we assume the black people stand no chance/lose by default because 'privilege'(as per the argument presented here). you're left with 10 whites of which one gets the job. question: how did those other 9 whites experience 'the privilege' in that case, and what would you take away from them to make them consciously experience it?. Edit:the actor is the prop; the writing, the script, the message, is the star. And without the actor, the play doesn't get produced. You need someone to bring the play to life, otherwise what you are left with is nothing. Back to the point; racists are replacing other racists. Not replacing the play. | ||
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