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Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 21 2018 18:09 GMT
#2061
They are just trying to increase the quality of news the bot posts.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
March 21 2018 18:26 GMT
#2062
On March 22 2018 02:00 Danglars wrote:
Mods generally get away with it with the “this is our house” rule. I’m ok assuming this is forever baked in the cake.

I sure hope you mean that in the "I don't think this is going to change" rather than in the "I don't think this is a problem" sense.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
March 21 2018 19:09 GMT
#2063
On March 22 2018 03:26 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2018 02:00 Danglars wrote:
Mods generally get away with it with the “this is our house” rule. I’m ok assuming this is forever baked in the cake.

I sure hope you mean that in the "I don't think this is going to change" rather than in the "I don't think this is a problem" sense.

It's a problem I don't think will be fully fixed, but over the years I've grown to accept as the cost of posting on a left-wing forum. It's better moderated than most other gamer community forums, after all. StealthBlue warn was an unexpected step. They could totally blow me away with a warn/threadban on the kind of uncivil shitposter that had extreme latitude last thread (obviously nothing up to this point really warrants one in the new thread). Give it another few weeks and somebody will leave a stupid response to an xDaunt post or something and we'll see if there's a change in the winds of subjective moderation.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9191 Posts
March 21 2018 19:29 GMT
#2064
Give it another few weeks and somebody will leave a stupid response to an xDaunt post or something and we'll see if there's a change in the winds of subjective moderation.


I have a theory that a lot of those stupid responses made in the past didn't get actioned purely because nobody bothered to report them.
You're now breathing manually
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
March 21 2018 19:31 GMT
#2065
Often based on a history of similar posts that were reported never being actioned in the past.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 21 2018 19:48 GMT
#2066
It seems fine, since we are all disappointed that the posts we didn’t like were not moderated. Everyone is unhappy.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
March 21 2018 20:21 GMT
#2067
On March 22 2018 04:29 Sent. wrote:
Show nested quote +
Give it another few weeks and somebody will leave a stupid response to an xDaunt post or something and we'll see if there's a change in the winds of subjective moderation.


I have a theory that a lot of those stupid responses made in the past didn't get actioned purely because nobody bothered to report them.

On March 22 2018 04:31 LegalLord wrote:
Often based on a history of similar posts that were reported never being actioned in the past.

Yeah you report five or six posts you see are over the line. No action. PM a mod. Mod says somebody else reviewed that report, sometimes mod says he'll bring it up to whatever mod forum deal, no action. No followup response. So you've just discovered the real rules governing bans and warns, and there's no use wasting the energy.

In theory, maybe the last two examples were close enough to the creation of the new thread that maybe that covered the mod response.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
March 21 2018 21:37 GMT
#2068
On March 22 2018 04:29 Sent. wrote:
Show nested quote +
Give it another few weeks and somebody will leave a stupid response to an xDaunt post or something and we'll see if there's a change in the winds of subjective moderation.


I have a theory that a lot of those stupid responses made in the past didn't get actioned purely because nobody bothered to report them.

I basically never report responses to my posts. I may have done it twice over the years.
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19048 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-21 21:58:41
March 21 2018 21:58 GMT
#2069
On March 22 2018 05:21 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2018 04:29 Sent. wrote:
Give it another few weeks and somebody will leave a stupid response to an xDaunt post or something and we'll see if there's a change in the winds of subjective moderation.


I have a theory that a lot of those stupid responses made in the past didn't get actioned purely because nobody bothered to report them.

Show nested quote +
On March 22 2018 04:31 LegalLord wrote:
Often based on a history of similar posts that were reported never being actioned in the past.

Yeah you report five or six posts you see are over the line. No action. PM a mod. Mod says somebody else reviewed that report, sometimes mod says he'll bring it up to whatever mod forum deal, no action. No followup response. So you've just discovered the real rules governing bans and warns, and there's no use wasting the energy.

In theory, maybe the last two examples were close enough to the creation of the new thread that maybe that covered the mod response.

we have several threads in two different staff forums just about US Pol thread. Not all action we take is visible (there have been many discussions with people in PMs), and sometimes it takes a while to sort through things. We are not obligated to tell anyone outside the mod staff what we do, that's just something you'll have to deal with.

But if you don't report posts, there's a significantly lower chance of any action being taken.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
March 21 2018 22:21 GMT
#2070
On March 22 2018 04:09 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2018 03:26 LegalLord wrote:
On March 22 2018 02:00 Danglars wrote:
Mods generally get away with it with the “this is our house” rule. I’m ok assuming this is forever baked in the cake.

I sure hope you mean that in the "I don't think this is going to change" rather than in the "I don't think this is a problem" sense.

It's a problem I don't think will be fully fixed, but over the years I've grown to accept as the cost of posting on a left-wing forum. It's better moderated than most other gamer community forums, after all. StealthBlue warn was an unexpected step. They could totally blow me away with a warn/threadban on the kind of uncivil shitposter that had extreme latitude last thread (obviously nothing up to this point really warrants one in the new thread). Give it another few weeks and somebody will leave a stupid response to an xDaunt post or something and we'll see if there's a change in the winds of subjective moderation.

It's not really related to being a left-wing forum as much as to having too many mods of the larger forum who have no place being mods of the politics forums setting a shitty example (or worse, simultaneously moderating and participating). It sets the tone for how others will act to a very large extent. And they only get actioned in rare cases like StealthBlue where not doing so would demonstrate such a blatant double standard (after Doodsmack's post and micronesia's clarification) that it'd undermine the flavor of the day "we're going to make some changes" attempt.

This has come up a lot, and the result is always the same: after whatever recent event sparks a "we need to do things different" push, it's quickly forgotten and people go back to doing exactly what they did before. There seems to be a desire to see things to change but no desire to actually make meaningful changes. As always, it will be a brief promise of change, a failure to actually see it through for more than a few weeks, a few statements of "please report people who cause trouble" and "lots of confidential things are happening behind the scenes" whenever someone says things aren't working, and then within about six months we'll rinse and repeat because the revamp attempt failed horribly.

Although in a lot of ways the moderation here is not too bad that is definitely one way in which the group here is actively very much below average. Mods set a standard and some of the ones that have done so do a terrible job at that. Given that there is little indication that this will ever change, why bother with half-hearted attempts at shaking things up?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-21 23:30:21
March 21 2018 23:28 GMT
#2071
On March 22 2018 07:21 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2018 04:09 Danglars wrote:
On March 22 2018 03:26 LegalLord wrote:
On March 22 2018 02:00 Danglars wrote:
Mods generally get away with it with the “this is our house” rule. I’m ok assuming this is forever baked in the cake.

I sure hope you mean that in the "I don't think this is going to change" rather than in the "I don't think this is a problem" sense.

It's a problem I don't think will be fully fixed, but over the years I've grown to accept as the cost of posting on a left-wing forum. It's better moderated than most other gamer community forums, after all. StealthBlue warn was an unexpected step. They could totally blow me away with a warn/threadban on the kind of uncivil shitposter that had extreme latitude last thread (obviously nothing up to this point really warrants one in the new thread). Give it another few weeks and somebody will leave a stupid response to an xDaunt post or something and we'll see if there's a change in the winds of subjective moderation.

It's not really related to being a left-wing forum as much as to having too many mods of the larger forum who have no place being mods of the politics forums setting a shitty example (or worse, simultaneously moderating and participating). It sets the tone for how others will act to a very large extent. And they only get actioned in rare cases like StealthBlue where not doing so would demonstrate such a blatant double standard (after Doodsmack's post and micronesia's clarification) that it'd undermine the flavor of the day "we're going to make some changes" attempt.

This has come up a lot, and the result is always the same: after whatever recent event sparks a "we need to do things different" push, it's quickly forgotten and people go back to doing exactly what they did before. There seems to be a desire to see things to change but no desire to actually make meaningful changes. As always, it will be a brief promise of change, a failure to actually see it through for more than a few weeks, a few statements of "please report people who cause trouble" and "lots of confidential things are happening behind the scenes" whenever someone says things aren't working, and then within about six months we'll rinse and repeat because the revamp attempt failed horribly.

Although in a lot of ways the moderation here is not too bad that is definitely one way in which the group here is actively very much below average. Mods set a standard and some of the ones that have done so do a terrible job at that. Given that there is little indication that this will ever change, why bother with half-hearted attempts at shaking things up?

On the one hand, you very much have a point. The bigger deal is there is no report button available for banhammers that post in thread. Kwark spewed his shit, or StealthBlue did something, and the shitposters follow along with the de-facto standard. Why act different?

On the other hand, I saw enough prior to the 2016 election to also conclude it is political beliefs as well. The default political beliefs of moderation staff meant that right-centered posters had less of a leash. Right wing posters would respond in kind to shitposters and get the warns and bans the others did not (with exceptions, this isn't a hard and fast rule). This is very much just where I saw the evidence stacking up, not that I presumed a left-leaning moderation staff would observably function like this. The first actual posting on the effect I think was from DeepElemBlues, but the more recent example was oBlade on ErectedZenith
In this case it's as though EZ got banned because he was being snide coupled with apparently being wrong. I think that suggests a significant ideological element. There are people dumping snark all over the thread which, the way I see it, aren't approached by moderation either because of where they are ideologically or get excused because of their significant posting history. The other factor is it's just looser than the TL I grew up in. Like I said earlier, it's a really high volume thread and I don't think it warrants excessive moderation. Social forces for the most part "handle" the flow. People luckily are smart enough not to engage with every garbage one liner.


That's basically my feelings on the matter. There's enough here in 6 years to add the ideological bias tag on top of the more general shitty red hammer example. A lot of this is more in the past, because after Trump was elected, the moderation staff performed much better compared to the years before (also, the thread before). I'm just observing past trends here. I'm also not going to invest time following up on unactioned reports with PMs, and PMs after those PMs, and copying them into a document to have a reliable trove of examples. If it's strict warns/bans, I'll report to confirm that it goes both ways. If it's mostly DMZ, I won't bother so much. If it only applies to one group for long enough, I'll stop reporting so much.

Interesting things moving forward: if the StealthBlue thing is a fluke--everything ends up counting as breaking news not needing additional comment to dodge the warn. Secondly, if one or two-liner snide posts, throwaway insult posts, or pure vile rants are worth reporting now.+ Show Spoiler [exs unactioned/borderline] +
Biff The Understudy wrote:
Oh ok, so please admit it had nothing to do with freedom of religion or being accepting and respectful of different faiths, as the founding fathers wished. It’s more about being a biggoted jerk towards both gays and muslims while pretending in bad faith that you are defending discriminations against the formers because you care about freedom of cult even though double standards!, it’s only about people who ain’t brown.

Geez, you guys are like batman villains. So predictable you become boring. « I wonder what xDaunt/Danglar view is on that issue... What’s the best way to be a complete a-hole about it? Oh here we go! Nailed it. »


Nyxisto wrote:
What currently passes as conservative in the US has no intellectual basis. David Brooks maybe but he's probably hated more by conservatives than liberals at this point

Velr wrote:
This forum looked less left before trump, but he scared everyone with some decency away from the right.

Doodsmack wrote:
So Trump's rally yesterday confirmed again that he's an old-fashioned flaming racist. Any denial of this fact is intellectual dishonesty. There's too many correlations for a half intelligent person to deny.
The baseline for content and argument isn't explored for the new thread that was basically nonexistent in the old thread.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
March 22 2018 02:01 GMT
#2072
I don’t deny that political affiliations play an important role, because they do. But I’ve seen much worse elsewhere. I’ve been part of forums where an opinion, even with high-quality posting, that was out of the norm would get you a first-strike permaban. The degree to which some of the moderation isn’t really appropriate for the task, however, is impressive. And it shows. Likely because a lot of the ranks are holdovers from completely different situations and some people are better than others about using discretion when it comes to applying it to politics.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23218 Posts
March 22 2018 11:06 GMT
#2073
I blame all of this on not reigning in Jonny sooner back in 2014 when I made the appeal

I think the most obvious difference in moderation I've noticed since then, is giving newer posters far more lenience insulting someone like xDaunt or Danglars using the generic "conservatives are _____" format (they do plenty of their own "liberals/the left").

I had to tolerate a lot of crap from the likes of Jonny and other right leaning posters coming up with a limited ability to defend myself in kind but I see posters like Wulfey get away with trash posts and no post count (maybe from another forum?) hunts is another good example of low-count liberals getting away with posts that would have gotten someone like me actioned a couple years ago.

They both fight from the center as well, so their insults and bad posts go both directions. So if there was a political bias here I'd say it's more toward centrism (argumentum ad temperantiam) but my view has an obvious bias as well.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9191 Posts
March 23 2018 17:22 GMT
#2074
On March 23 2018 23:15 Doodsmack wrote:
How many Trump towers are in Turkey again?

Show nested quote +
The U.S. has dropped criminal charges against nearly all of the Turkish security officers accused of viciously beating American demonstrators last year in Washington, D.C., as Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan sat in a car nearby.

Most of the charges were dropped last month, a day before now-outgoing Secretary of State Rex Tillerson met in Turkey with Erdogan, who was furious about the arrest warrants that had been issued against his men, The Wall Street Journal reported.

The attack in May outraged the American public and politicians after the foreign security guards beat up protesters in the nation’s capital. Members of Erdogan’s security entourage, many in suits and some spotted wearing Turkish security badges, can be seen on a Voice of America video rushing into the peaceful demonstration and punching and kicking protesters in the head. Demonstrators were protesting Erdogan’s human rights violations soon after he met with President Donald Trump in the White House.


www.yahoo.com

User was temp banned for this post.


Doodsmack was just temp banned for 2 days by Seeker.

That account was created on 2010-08-17 14:55:43 and had 6260 posts.

Reason: Unfortunately, due to the fact that you have 3 pages of mod notes, we can no longer issue warnings. Please make sure to follow the US Politics Mega-thread guidelines and provide context and your own opinion as to why the source is important or necessary when providing one.


I don't understand this ban. I agree that excessive CCstealthbotting may be annoying to some, but in this case the context is obvious and it's not some ridiculous unsourced story about a gorilla channel posted by some twitter celebrity nobody but their followers know.

Is posting news with little commentary of your own against the rules now?
You're now breathing manually
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
March 23 2018 17:28 GMT
#2075
I agree with Sent's post and think this policy of actioning people who are posting articles instead of tweets ought be reeled in. Besides, prior criticisms levied towards the unadorned posting of news revolved entirely around tweets and other snippets of info the authority of which are not apparent on their face. I for one enjoy and rely on many of the news stories posted to the US politics thread, presence of commentary notwithstanding.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
March 23 2018 17:32 GMT
#2076
It was a shitty post and needed to be actioned.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
March 23 2018 17:38 GMT
#2077
Not only was it being a "shitty post" not a part of the ban reason, the one liner you clearly take issue with provides ample, if not inflammatorily framed context aimed at pointing out a possible reason for Trump's decision to not pursue Turks who committted violent offenses here in the US.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
March 23 2018 17:42 GMT
#2078
On March 24 2018 02:38 farvacola wrote:
Not only was it being a "shitty post" not a part of the ban reason, the one liner you clearly take issue with provides ample, if not inflammatorily framed context aimed at pointing out a possible reason for Trump's decision to not pursue Turks who committted violent offenses here in the US.

So a baseless, conclusory claim that Trump is corrupt and in the pocket of Turks is justification for posting that article? I think not. Clearly the mods don't, either.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-23 17:48:09
March 23 2018 17:45 GMT
#2079
Well I'm glad you've enunciated your basis for taking issue with the post given that spurious introductions to articles from abjectly shitty conservative websites would be actionable in precisely the same sense. And no, it's not clear that's what the actioning mod thought given the reason stated.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-23 17:48:55
March 23 2018 17:46 GMT
#2080
+ Show Spoiler +

On March 23 2018 10:07 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2018 10:04 Danglars wrote:
On the former DNI, the report says that Clapper, now a contributor to CNN as a national security analyst "provided inconsistent testimony to the committee about his contacts with the media, including CNN."

A CNN spokeswoman did not return an email seeking comment. Clapper could not be reached for comment.

The report also states that leaks of classified information about Russian intentions to sow discord in the U.S. presidential election began prior to Election Day. The disclosures of U.S. secrets alleging Russia was working to help elect Trump "increased dramatically" after the Nov. 8, 2016 election.

The panel suggested that the leaks "correlate to specific language" in a U.S. intelligence community assessment of Russian election meddling.

The finding suggests that leaks of classified information were politically motivated to undermine Trump after he won the election.

Washington Free Beacon

I'm wondering just what kind of evidence they cite to conclude Clapper lied/mislead Congress during his testimony. We know he lied in the past about breaking into Senate computers. He's also the one that claimed the NSA was not collecting data on millions of Americans. Lately, the FBI has been shown to be a very political entity, organizing opposition to the duly elected president of the United States and his campaign through leaks and FISA abuse and lying under oath to Congress. I wonder if there will be any revelations in the Intel committee report that we don't already know.


This post is not in accord with the facts.

User was warned for this post (don't post just to say a post is wrong, whether it is actually wrong or not)


Would it have been acceptable under the new thread rules to ask for substantiation of a specific argument or is this a precedent for shifting the burden of proof from poster to the reader?

e:if something like a precedent can exist with the announced increase in subjective moderation.
passive quaranstream fan
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