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On March 21 2011 01:35 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 01:05 setmeal wrote: @confusedcrib
One of the points that you did not mention in your original post is that the zerg kept on engaging protoss in non-favourable position(ramps, chokes). For Zergs, where you engage the opponent makes a huge difference. For example, in the 5th game on Shakuras, July was baited into attacking MC at the choke. MC did not use FFs in the wide open area where he first met the hydras.
I have one additional point to add. FFs are not free. They cost quite a bit of energy, which is why MC always gets them early. During this time, there is a small window of opportunity in which they mostly have zealots and sentries. They can't get too many stalkers because it is too gas intensive. This is the perfect time for zergs to go for some speedling/baneling aggression to bait out FFs and to trade cheap mineral units for expensive gas ones. Letting a protoss store energy for FFs is like letting a Zerg whore drones in the first 8 minutes without any pressure.
So with your reasoning zerg should all in every single zvp game. I rlly dont know what game youre playing but to me a game where u have to all in 5 minutes in or have no chance is pretty stupid. This is of course assuming ur right but i have no idea where ur pulling this timing from. Ling bling all in is easily holdable with forcefields anx good building placement Also ur sentry / drone for 8 minute comparison is lost when u realize a zerg droning for 8 minutes will outright die to light aggresion let alone a committed attack whereas its basically impossible for z to pressure early without all ining and even that sucks. Seriously what wat r u gonna have, slow roaches ?
Applying pressure does not constitute all-inning. Make him use forcefields to defend or force him to make less sentries and more stalkers/zealots cause sentries are crappy defensive units once they have used up their forcefields.
This is still irrelevant though. I don't think zerg even needs to pressure the Protoss; just get the damn burrowed upgrade.
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I really don't understand why it is so complicated. If the Zerg doesn't prepare for Colossus, he dies. Everyone can accept that. So why don't people accept the fact that if he doesn't go for burrowed roach against mass sentries, he's gonna be in huge trouble.
I think mainly because these situations keep growing.
If zerg has not prepared X he dies If zerg doesnt spot Y he dies If zerg engages in place Z he dies
Is there any situation where you go like "Oh, he has 3 ultralisks and i didnt build any VRs... i am so dead now" or "Oh he faked a FE and is doing some 1 base agression now... i am going to die"
Thats less an issue of "balance" but "gameplay" and "feeling"
Getting stomped time after time, seeing dozend different builds and having to stick to a rather passive gameplay with just a few valid builds can get tiresome
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You guys are overthinking it. MC did builds that were super safe defensively, and very agressive, against july who like to be the one dishing out the agression. Thats it really.
The fact that MC was being tricky, and that july was unlucky with his scouting just compounded the issue, making MC's all-ins even harder to stop for a zerg that prefers being on the offensive instead of the defensive.
I have one additional point to add. FFs are not free. They cost quite a bit of energy, which is why MC always gets them early. During this time, there is a small window of opportunity in which they mostly have zealots and sentries. They can't get too many stalkers because it is too gas intensive. This is the perfect time for zergs to go for some speedling/baneling aggression to bait out FFs and to trade cheap mineral units for expensive gas ones. Letting a protoss store energy for FFs is like letting a Zerg whore drones in the first 8 minutes without any pressure.
Attacking with speedlings into 7-10 defensively positioned sentries with progamer forcefields is suicide. Pressuring a zerg whoring drones is easy. He makes too many drones, you attack, you win. Pressuring a toss making too many sentries is impossible for zerg. Broodlords, ultras, ranged hydras, and sometimes burrowed roaches can help pressure against sentries, but by the time you get those, the toss is going to have more than just sentries with a couple of zealots. If you personally always lose a bunch of sentries to speedling agression, well thats sad. But people with good forcefields definitly dont fear being attacked by a bunch of speedlings when they have 7-10 sentries in a defensive position
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On March 21 2011 01:46 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote + I really don't understand why it is so complicated. If the Zerg doesn't prepare for Colossus, he dies. Everyone can accept that. So why don't people accept the fact that if he doesn't go for burrowed roach against mass sentries, he's gonna be in huge trouble.
I think mainly because these situations keep growing. If zerg has not prepared X he dies If zerg doesnt spot Y he dies If zerg engages in place Z he dies Is there any situation where you go like "Oh, he has 3 ultralisks and i didnt build any VRs... i am so dead now" or "Oh he faked a FE and is doing some 1 base agression now... i am going to die"
Didn't spot overlord drop research. Dies.
In Huk vs Losira, didn't spot mass roaches with burrow. Dies.
Do you know how fucking hard it is to play without observers? You have to dictate the match, and to do that you have to deny scouting. And if you don't do both well enough, you lose.
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All of the flaming of the original post isn't needed. He tried to break down the games in a well thought out manner.
Personally while watching the games, I felt like July reacted poorly as well. Four gates are hard to stop, certainly. July knew something was up though. He kept sacking lings in that group of eight lings to try and get views of the nexus.
The second game is about the most standard 6 gate push in the world. MC does it better, yes. But it is nearly the same build HuK used in his code A matches. Losira responded much better than July and HuK played it a bit worse. Honestly, with early burrow and speed if you engage mid-map or sooner what is protoss going to do with forcefields?
In my opinion using the GSL finals as any sort of balance meter is really a bad plan. July didn't execute well. I am not saying anything about his skill. Against MVP, a couple allins crushed a very strong macro terran. The games vs Nada displayed great understanding of the ZvT match.
But, in the end July reacted very poorly to very common builds.
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On March 21 2011 01:46 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote + I really don't understand why it is so complicated. If the Zerg doesn't prepare for Colossus, he dies. Everyone can accept that. So why don't people accept the fact that if he doesn't go for burrowed roach against mass sentries, he's gonna be in huge trouble.
I think mainly because these situations keep growing. If zerg has not prepared X he dies If zerg doesnt spot Y he dies If zerg engages in place Z he dies Is there any situation where you go like "Oh, he has 3 ultralisks and i didnt build any VRs... i am so dead now" or "Oh he faked a FE and is doing some 1 base agression now... i am going to die" Meh, thats what we get for being the defensive, reactive race, without any defending advantage, or proper scouting. Its only going to get worse until things change, and zergs find their own powerful all-ins that will restrict the toss and terran players, and force them to scout.
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If you didn't spot something it's most like your own fault. Unless July knew everything that was coming and made perfect decision making and STILL lost, people shouldn't hop on the imba-train.
Fact of the matter is, he didn't scout the pushes that were coming and underprepared for most of them. That's more an attribute to the players and less to the imbalance-monster lurking in everyone's mind.
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he sacced an overlord, and didnt see what he needed to see. Mostly everyone would agree, thats unlucky, but not "his own fault" Thats the problem when your scouting relies on luck and what the opponent is willing to show you, its extremely hard to hold of well designed pushes that require a specifc counter be started for them minutes ahead of when they will actually arrive.
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On March 21 2011 01:35 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 01:05 setmeal wrote: @confusedcrib
One of the points that you did not mention in your original post is that the zerg kept on engaging protoss in non-favourable position(ramps, chokes). For Zergs, where you engage the opponent makes a huge difference. For example, in the 5th game on Shakuras, July was baited into attacking MC at the choke. MC did not use FFs in the wide open area where he first met the hydras.
I have one additional point to add. FFs are not free. They cost quite a bit of energy, which is why MC always gets them early. During this time, there is a small window of opportunity in which they mostly have zealots and sentries. They can't get too many stalkers because it is too gas intensive. This is the perfect time for zergs to go for some speedling/baneling aggression to bait out FFs and to trade cheap mineral units for expensive gas ones. Letting a protoss store energy for FFs is like letting a Zerg whore drones in the first 8 minutes without any pressure.
So with your reasoning zerg should all in every single zvp game. I rlly dont know what game youre playing but to me a game where u have to all in 5 minutes in or have no chance is pretty stupid. This is of course assuming ur right but i have no idea where ur pulling this timing from. Ling bling all in is easily holdable with forcefields anx good building placement Also ur sentry / drone for 8 minute comparison is lost when u realize a zerg droning for 8 minutes will outright die to light aggresion let alone a committed attack whereas its basically impossible for z to pressure early without all ining and even that sucks. Seriously what wat r u gonna have, slow roaches ?
You can put on pressure without an all-in. Forcefields really form an indispensable core of the protoss army. Zealots and stalkers are simply not very cost-effective units, compared to say, the roach. It is necessary to squeeze them dry of FFs so that they can't move out and so will remain at their natural for a bit longer. I am sure you have done speedling surrounds on sentries before. The toss will FF all around to save his precious sentries. Even if you don't kill the sentries in this engagement, you have a significant advantage because FFs are not there to save his ass in the next engagement.
Erm...I'll try to give an example. The most recent game that I can remember with MC in it is LiquidRet versus OGSMC. Note how ret pokes in several times and forces MC to commit with forcefields without losing too much.
MC versus Rethttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2iDIX4aGls
On a sitenote, I saw incontrol playing with a highly aggressive speedling/baneling Zerg style on his stream and he has talked about it in a recent SoTG. Unfortunately, I don't have any videos of it.
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What if we all took the mature route and looked at the force field as an obstacle to be overcome and conquered with practice, dedication, and skill rather than something that is totally broken and needs to be nerfed.
Perhaps standard play isn't good enough anymore, perhaps players need to begin to think outside the box. Force the meta game to change, it did so many times in BW i dont understand why people have no hope for SC2. This game is still sooo new, but why cant we all just approach these problems rationally instead of asking whether or not something is imba and then flaming each other?
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On March 21 2011 02:14 drgonzhere wrote: What if we all took the mature route and looked at the force field as an obstacle to be overcome and conquered with practice, dedication, and skill rather than something that is totally broken and needs to be nerfed.
Perhaps standard play isn't good enough anymore, perhaps players need to begin to think outside the box. Force the meta game to change, it did so many times in BW i dont understand why people have no hope for SC2. This game is still sooo new, but why cant we all just approach these problems rationally instead of asking whether or not something is imba and then flaming each other?
This. Everyone in this thread should read this post.
Fruitdealer brought hope to Zerg in GSL season 1 by showing how to defend hatch first builds and caused Terrans to QQ about Zerg(is that even possible LOL!?) being OP.
MarineKingPrime evolved Terran play by popularizing 2 rax openings and early pressure to punish greedy Zergs.
OGSMC is more or less credited with the FF bunker rush to punish terrans that try to bunker up and tech quickly.
The six gate timing push was in fact evolved to hit Zerg at a vulnerable timing before they can get a mutaball out.
The Zerg answer to that was the 2 hatch burrowed Roach build, which punished Toss for not going Robo.
The game evolves. I am sure our new Zerg hero will come soon with an answer to these silly FFs and we will all joke and laugh about it later on.
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On March 21 2011 01:54 Uhnno wrote: If you didn't spot something it's most like your own fault. Unless July knew everything that was coming and made perfect decision making and STILL lost, people shouldn't hop on the imba-train.
Fact of the matter is, he didn't scout the pushes that were coming and underprepared for most of them. That's more an attribute to the players and less to the imbalance-monster lurking in everyone's mind.
please actually watch some of the games before making ill-informed posts. game one i am still waiting to see a suggesstion as to how july could have known that was a 4 gate all-in rather than a 3 gate expand. nexus was faked and cancelled at the very last minute, pylon was made at bottom of ramp and only a 3 gate expands worth of units at the bottom of ramp. sacking an overloard wouldn't have cut it because of positioning of gates and his lings were running in every 10 seconds to check. the minute he noticed too many units he cancelled all donre production made spines and pumped not stop roach ling. a single forcefield on the ramp is comparable to only being able to warp in 2 gates worth of reinforcements for protoss instead of 4 gates worth so it was always going to be tough. drones were used and micro was near spot on. so i ask you what could he have done differently? there must have been something.
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On March 21 2011 01:46 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote + I really don't understand why it is so complicated. If the Zerg doesn't prepare for Colossus, he dies. Everyone can accept that. So why don't people accept the fact that if he doesn't go for burrowed roach against mass sentries, he's gonna be in huge trouble.
I think mainly because these situations keep growing. If zerg has not prepared X he dies If zerg doesnt spot Y he dies If zerg engages in place Z he dies Is there any situation where you go like "Oh, he has 3 ultralisks and i didnt build any VRs... i am so dead now" or "Oh he faked a FE and is doing some 1 base agression now... i am going to die" Thats less an issue of "balance" but "gameplay" and "feeling" Getting stomped time after time, seeing dozend different builds and having to stick to a rather passive gameplay with just a few valid builds can get tiresome
I think this is closer to the heart of Zerg frustrations then FF discussion. There is just no way Zerg can dictate the game without truly going all-in. The idea that 'Zerg' is the reactionary race is BS. Toss can create units in 5 sec. That's reactionary.
For any toss who doesn't think playing against toss is incredibly frustrating answer me this. What is your least favorite match-up? I bet it's PvP, for reasons similar to those listed above.
PvP has the SAME problems as ZvP in terms of general game-play. Terran can get around it because MMM kills everything in the early - mid game.
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On March 21 2011 02:37 rmAmnesiac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 01:54 Uhnno wrote: If you didn't spot something it's most like your own fault. Unless July knew everything that was coming and made perfect decision making and STILL lost, people shouldn't hop on the imba-train.
Fact of the matter is, he didn't scout the pushes that were coming and underprepared for most of them. That's more an attribute to the players and less to the imbalance-monster lurking in everyone's mind. please actually watch some of the games before making ill-informed posts. game one i am still waiting to see a suggesstion as to how july could have known that was a 4 gate all-in rather than a 3 gate expand. nexus was faked and cancelled at the very last minute, pylon was made at bottom of ramp and only a 3 gate expands worth of units at the bottom of ramp. sacking an overloard wouldn't have cut it because of positioning of gates and his lings were running in every 10 seconds to check. the minute he noticed too many units he cancelled all donre production made spines and pumped not stop roach ling. a single forcefield on the ramp is comparable to only being able to warp in 2 gates worth of reinforcements for protoss instead of 4 gates worth so it was always going to be tough. drones were used and micro was near spot on. so i ask you what could he have done differently? there must have been something.
I don't think there was much July could have done. MC even positioned his range units such that they could intercept any overlords. But then again, this is a game of imperfect information. Even Terran, with arguably the earliest and best in game detection cannot catch a 4-gate when all the gates are split up all over. Some intuition is required, I guess. I would give anything to know how Nestea does it perfectly all the time.
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"If those units were anything but sentries...."
Okay time out now lol. I'm sorry, I commend you for trying to do a higher level analysis of replays; however, you can't say things like that.
That's basically equivalent to saying "Had those 22 speedlings he had at the 5 minute mark been 22 roaches, he would have easily won".
Hell in one of you're lines you wrote that July would have won had he had 2 more production cycles of units against a delayed 4 gate. Well, yeah? Any 4 gate can be stopped with 14 EXTRA roaches. That's just silly to say "oh well, I mean, had there been 2 cycles worth of..." and I'll stop there because I think you get my point. I'd win a hell of a lot more early game engagements if I had 14 bonus larvae too. You're just repeating and reinforcing what he says by saying any 4 gate can be stopped with 14 more Roaches. That's exactly his point, and that's why MC wasn't doing anything "imb4".
I honestly don't think you're giving much credit to arguably one of the top Zergs in the business. July is an incredibly seasoned player, so is MC; however, what you saw wasn't crap scouting by any means from July. It was July thinking very hard about each decision *as all pros do* and MC simply being more prepared for their games.
He's not trying to say that July should have won or anything like that. The responses/analysis are targetted towards explaining why MC's strategy isn't imbalanced. And no saying 22 speedlings is 22 roaches does not work because 22 roaches are much more expensive. So yes, he can say things like that, but you were misinterpreting him.
The fact that you think that sentries didnt win these games proves you have no clue. Sentries dominated the finals far and away, the late 4gate push would of been crushed by july without sentries and mc would of been dead. The fact that you think otherwise is just sad and you really dont have an understanding of the game at all.
Instead of attacking him and derailing him, why don't you actually respond to what he said and make a proper argument? Posts like yours get discussions no where. And certainly, if all those Sentries had been Stalkers (arguable cheaper than Sentries) or even Zealots, MC would have still won. He had WAY too many units for July to handle.
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Even if you don't kill the sentries in this engagement, you have a significant advantage because FFs are not there to save his ass in the next engagement.
Erm...I'll try to give an example. The most recent game that I can remember with MC in it is LiquidRet versus OGSMC. Note how ret pokes in several times and forces MC to commit with forcefields without losing too much. Well note how that doesnt work. He has forcefields to kill lings. He has forcefields to kill the roaches. And then he still has 9 forcefields for the roach-ling attack. When the toss has a high amount of forcefields, like 7-10, then there is really no depleting of forcefields that can be done, at this point, they are pretty much unlimited. Seriously. You can sacrifice some units every 30 seconds, forcing 2-4 forcefields every 30 seconds. Keep doing that for 20 minutes if you want, and the toss will keep up with the forcefields, at no cost to him while you lose units each time. And at the end, he can still easily lay down 10 forcefields or more, when only 6-7 are really needed to split an army in 2 and crush it, in most cases.
I mean, sure, if you can afford to sac units every 30 seconds, in numbers big enough to force for example 6 forcefields every 30 seconds... Then after about 3 waves sacrificed, the toss will need to warp in some more sentries -_-
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On March 21 2011 02:51 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +Even if you don't kill the sentries in this engagement, you have a significant advantage because FFs are not there to save his ass in the next engagement.
Erm...I'll try to give an example. The most recent game that I can remember with MC in it is LiquidRet versus OGSMC. Note how ret pokes in several times and forces MC to commit with forcefields without losing too much. Well note how that doesnt work. He has forcefields to kill lings. He has forcefields to kill the roaches. And then he still has 9 forcefields for the roach-ling attack. When the toss has a high amount of forcefields, like 7-10, then there is really no depleting of forcefields that can be done, at this point, they are pretty much unlimited. Seriously. You can sacrifice some units every 30 seconds, forcing 2-4 forcefields every 30 seconds. Keep doing that for 20 minutes if you want, and the toss will keep up with the forcefields, at no cost to him while you lose units each time. And at the end, he can still easily lay down 10 forcefields or more, when only 6-7 are really needed to split an army in 2 and crush it, in most cases. I mean, sure, if you can afford to sac units every 30 seconds, in numbers big enough to force for example 6 forcefields every 30 seconds... Then after about 3 waves sacrificed, the toss will need to warp in some more sentries -_-
Too busy watching TSL3 now to type out a full reply but I've got another example. Check out 7:30min.
Idra vs Minigun
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Game 1: confusedcrib's suggestion & conclusion: sac an overlord, start making roaches earlier sentries weren't a main factor to win the game for MC
BUT MCs Gateway placement was really good, if MC intercepts the overlord that doesnt know where to look for the gateways it would be the same situation and sentries where THE main factor in this 4gate push, the amount of sentries MC had garantied that July couldnt join forces when his Hatch was under attack. July would have hold without the sentries
Game 2: confusedcrib's suggestion & conclusion: scout earlier, get earlier roach upgrades BUT: after MCs fast expansion he was way behind and though his scout seemed late, it was a pretty fast one considering how much gas overseers cost and how much gas a zerg needs after hitting lair tech, with Hydra Den, Hydra Upgrade, Burrow, Roach Movement, Roach Burrow Movement all being necessary to have a stable army composition as Zerg against Protoss
Still even with the right upgrades and more units I think July could have only won with a double expand after Protoss 1gate expand. MC was just way ahead and could have done 3-4 different pushes all with a similar outcame.
Game 3: confusedcrib's suggestion & conclusion: MC should have gone colossus or Templar against the Hydras BUT: MC showed times and times again that you dont need colossus to beat Hydras of creep, if you have good Forcefield micro. He just didnt expect the drop, was out of position and July could take the game by surprise.
Game 4: confusedcrib's suggestion & conclusion: July shouldnt have gone spire and go for a lot of Hydras or roaches with upgrades.
BUT: again MC was already way ahead with his DTs killing lots of units, forcing an early evo chamber + a spinecrawler and early overseers and even killing queen! A 6gate is hard to hold without being behind, MC being able to counter Hydras with Gateway Units only makes it even harder. July loses.
Game 5: confusedcrib's suggestion & conclusion: Upgraded Roach Hydra would have crushed MCs 6gate push easily
BUT: again MC was way ahead after the Forge expand, his Sentry/Stalker Combo killed the "GatewayKillerUnit" Hydralisk without any trouble Staying on creep wasn't possible as it would have meant that MC could have attacked Julys expansion through the rocks and would have had an even smaller terrain to fight on, making forcefields even more devastating
My Conclusion: -) always all in against a Protoss Forge expand, as a good Protoss wont give u another chance to attack
-) Blink and Forcefields in the hands of a potent Player make Gateway Units equal to Hydra/roach play, Warpgates give Protoss the same production capacity that a Zerg has (as even 10 Larvae can only produce 8 Units+2overlords. as Roaches are inferior to stalkers and cant shot air I consider this pretty even to 6gateway units)
-) Still I dont think MC has shown us the full potential Blink and FF have, there will be better players with better micro, while Zerg has only Burrow to use for the Roach Hydra Combo, which is inferior to Blink as blinked stalkers are out of range but still shoot, while burrowed roaches cant attack
-) Zerg has to scout exactly what protoss does, while protoss doesnt need any scouting at all when they want to play a pressure build (the only game MC really scouted he lost!!!)
-) Zerg has no tech choices as spire gets denied by Stargate and Gateway play, against a well played 6gate you need all 3roach upgrades, and against Stargate play you need Hydras.
-) Protoss are developing into Zerg 2.0 being able to expand at nearly same speed, having more choices early (5+ different 1base attacks) and midgame(4+ different 2base attacks) and close to the same production capazity if wanted/needed.
I dont want to whine about the MU being imbalanced, BUT imo Protoss just has way too many options in the MU and Protoss mistakes are way more forgiving than Zergs.
PS: I dont want to bash on you confusedcrib, but I think you are way to easy on saying: "July should have done that and he would have won easily" and not taking in consideration that even if July scouts more/earlier he might miss some/many things MC does + MC might just go for "fake buildings" if July keeps on sending overlords in And I think July didnt play so bad, but MC was just better + luckier (July did never prepare blindly for the gateway attacks, missed the Dark Shrine with his scout, blindly 6gating and July going for burrow late, being at Julys base with his 4gate right before the roaches could get down the ramp)
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if you notice, in game 1, at 4:46, we can see a scouting overlord being denied by a stalker. Where is the scouting overlord going to come from? From the top, it was easily denied. From the left, it would also be easy enough to deny. From the bottom, its impossible, the map ends there. And from the right, there is his ramp, with a stalker and 2 sentries, so equally impossible.
Its not that july was bad, and didnt try to scout. He tried to sac an overlord, but it was denied. He tried to poke constantly with lings at the front, but MC kept the extra units hidden. Yes, july didnt see the nexus cancel, but that didnt matter, because when the nexus was canceled, july did see the army moving out, and was already pumping pure units. So seeing the nexus cancel wouldnt actually have allowed him to react any faster.
Game 2, the scouting overlord just isnt fast enough to be able to see the early nexus from MC. To be fast enough, july would have needed to magically know his opponent's spawning position, and sent the overlord directly there, which obviously is impossible. He doesnt see the 6 gates, and has absolutely 0 posibility to see what MC is doing, thus he has to get a hydraden. His overseer finally manages to get some vision at 8:30, and only then does he know what hes up against. He instantly makes a bunch of roaches, though it does take him 20 seconds to start burrow. Honestly though, even if it had been started straight away, it wouldnt have been done in time.
Game 4, he sacs an overlord, and he doesnt see the dark shrine -_-
Its easy to suggest that zerg should have scouted better, but honestly, I dont see how he could have done much better than constantly trying to sac overlords, and constantly poking at the front with lings. And yeah, sure, if you blindly go for masses of roaches and burrow straight after lair, and skip the "useless" hydra den, you can hold off a 6gate push easily enough. But again, thats asking for a zerg to magically know that a 6gate will be coming before he has any posibility to scout it. And then if it wasnt a 6 gate, but it was something else, like for example double stargate, and you have a bunch of roaches with speed and burrow, no more gas, and no hydra den, then you are in the same situation again, you instantly just die, because you failed to magically know exactly what the protoss was doing, without actually having any posibility to scout it out and know for sure before its too late.
Its easy to just say he should have scouted better, but please explain in more detail exactly how he could have scouted better, other than constantly poking with lings, constantly trying to sac overlords, in one game even actually managing to sac an overlord to no effect, and making an overseer right after lair. Its not like he could have scanned..
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On March 20 2011 16:17 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 16:13 Active.815 wrote:On March 20 2011 16:05 MrBitter wrote: So wait... Your analysis is that forcefield was a non-factor in these games?
Seriously?
Are you trolling, or are you really that dense? He's saying its not imba, and while they secured MC's victory they wouldnt've been necessary for him to win because of july's mistakes Then he wasn't watching the same games as the rest of us. The forcefield use, while impressive, was very obviously the defining factor in MC's victory. hrmmm why did I expect the 12 weeks with the pros guy to have an understanding of how RTS works... Really disappointing to see that you missed like 90% of the take away points from the games. Your analysis is a good exampple as to why alot of players are plateauing in SC2 right now
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