EPTSc2 fans, help me understand you - Page 3
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shadesofkarma
Romania708 Posts
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
The first few points you make about the skill required to macro/cast without smartcast/get your dragoons to walk down a ramp/etc all tie back to the #1 thing I dislike about Brood War: namely, that for nearly 100% of the user base (basically everyone who isn't Bisu/Flash/Jaedong/Stork), the game is a contest to see who is better at manipulating a crappy interface. And, for me, that doesn't make for a particularly interesting game- it's about as interesting as a contest to see who is best at doing productive work in CDE/Motif. I doubt many people would think that using CDE is an entertaining experience, but for the vast majority of players, Brood War is just CDE with blood, explosions, and cool sound effects. Yet aren't all RTS games, boiled down to a minimalist core, all about the ability for a player to make the correct mouseclicks and tap the correct keys at the right time? The generalization cuts both ways -- would the optimal game involve zero mechanics and manual dexterity? There are games that fulfill both requirements. However, they aren't real time strategy. As to the games you mention that have superior interface to BW -- which one has had a longer competitive life (if any?). | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
I'm mostly a spectator and i actually don't care about mechanics when watching. I want to see stuff die, it's as simple as that. I can appreciate clever drops on multiple locations, but i don't _care_ how hard they are to execute. I want to see strategy and action, not mechanics. Mechanics are boring to watch; Decision making is fun to watch. I think about 80% of the esports fans will have a similar opinion, no matter what you say... i almost don't even dare to say it, but.... many don't even play SC2 (/SC2 Multiplayer) and never played BW but are still eSports fans and watch games. Yes, you veterans of this forum love your BW and as much as i concerned you can watch it as much as you want, i just don't think it's entertaining... it's an opinion as valid as yours. Oh... and before i forget, SC2 is _shiny_... LAZERS! EXPLOSION! GREEN BANELING GOO! | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
''lot of the hardcore BW vs SC2 fanboys (on both sides) speak from a very close-minded, absolutist position of one "better" than the other.'' Thing is, the more I think about it the more I realize why you like it that much then. Some people indeed do not want the IU or interface, they do not want players to win based upon their macro mechanics which are only there because the IU was so bad at the time. On top of that, it seems that alot of players can feel an attachment to SC2 because they play it themselves aswell, they experience the game most likely. They attempt to copy what is done by Pro's and find that amazing. Personally I couldn't dream of anything to copy in BW, but I can see that perhaps the distance between you and the pros is much smaller because you don't have to focus on those akward macro mechanics so that you too can be able to drift to a level closer to the pro, or atleast and produce perhaps similair results, or results which resemble it. Ofcourse there are the graphics, but I never disputed that BW had better graphics and I can understand why some persons would not want to watch BW because it is simply 10 years old and looks simply outdated in today's context. Lastly I would like to add a small argument about BW's defensive position vs SC2 once again outside of the game. As you all know both these great games have been made by Blizzard. Currently however, the company we both love is sueing the Korean broadcasting companys OGN and MBC for stealing(might be a word in poor taste) IP, Intellectual property. If you want to know about this case read this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=188322 Its contains a translated version of korean articles by Milkis. Now regardless of people taking positions, the facts that both parties present or who is right or wrong. This does add to the defensive position that BW fans take fact, is that Blizzard advocates Sc2 currently much more then BW, it is not suprising, noone is suprised with it. However some close-minded people read this from both sides as Blizzard wants to destroy BW in order to have SC2 on television instead(frankly, from my biased point of view and perhaps poor reading skills it does sometimes seem that way from the linked thread before. It is however very close-minded to truly believe it without knowing all the facts, this is something which noone knows apart from the legal representatives and those residing in the actual court). Regardless of outcome or who is right or wrong, this explains more why BW people find themselves ''threathened'' by SC2 people sometimes. | ||
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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
I don't know what it is about SC2. I like BW, I really do. Bisu vs Jaedong not too long ago was amazing. I watched Flash vs Effort and that was totally sick. I'm a Stork fan and tune into most of his games, and I love it practically every time. I was on the edge of my seat watching OSL finals VODs. But there's just something about a Clide vs Ace, a Clide vs Leenock, a Squirtle vs MVP that's just magic to me. Nothing tops it. I think I have something in common with people who have been watching BW for a long time and are really passionate about it. Sometimes you're just watching a match, you're on the edge of your seat, eyes wide, watching every move, and you get that feeling in your stomach that something really incredible is happening. You lean forward, and you don't notice but your front teeth are sinking into your index finger. It's just... I dunno. I imagine I'm not the only one who feels that way sometimes. BW is great to watch but it doesn't do that for me. SC2 does. Some people watch the NFL. Some people watch the NBA. Some people watch Premiere League. Some people watch college, some people watch pro. Don't hate. | ||
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
On March 09 2011 17:34 Turgid wrote: I like BW, but I got into SC2 first. I know how nailbiting those shuttle juke moments are. I know how much of a struggle it is to macro near-perfectly off 5 bases and still do sick swarms and position lurkers perfectly and get surrounds with zerglings and having played bw how much of a struggle it is TO JSUT MOVE YOUR SHIT ACROSS AN OPEN FIELD but even sitting there and actively thinking "Wow, that was pretty hard to do!" doesn't make it any more exciting to me. Not even every Brood War fan likes Flash despite the fact that he's probably the most skilled player. That says something to me about the role the skill of the people you're observing plays in how much you like watching it. Yeah, it's fun to watch people do something difficult very well, but it doesn't have primacy when I'm watching something for entertainment. I don't know what it is about SC2. I like BW, I really do. Bisu vs Jaedong not too long ago was amazing. I watched Flash vs Effort and that was totally sick. I'm a Stork fan and tune into most of his games, and I love it practically every time. I was on the edge of my seat watching OSL finals VODs. But there's just something about a Clide vs Ace, a Clide vs Leenock, a Squirtle vs MVP that's just magic to me. Nothing tops it. I think I have something in common with people who have been watching BW for a long time and are really passionate about it. Sometimes you're just watching a match, you're on the edge of your seat, eyes wide, watching every move, and you get that feeling in your stomach that something really incredible is happening. You lean forward, and you don't notice but your front teeth are sinking into your index finger. It's just... I dunno. I imagine I'm not the only one who feels that way sometimes. BW is great to watch but it doesn't do that for me. SC2 does. Some people watch the NFL. Some people watch the NBA. Some people watch Premiere League. Some people watch college, some people watch pro. Don't hate. This is literally the first post I've read in TL that even slightly convinced me that there is something in SC2 beyond what I have seen (and what I have seen paled greatly to BW). | ||
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onlinerobbe
Germany547 Posts
I don't even remember which of the two it was (it's possible that this was actually from WCG semis) but in one game JD dropped a whole lot of stuff on Flash's tankline with is overlords coming from the side while attacking and microing in the front and of course macroing during. Since then I'm watching every game that has someone in it like: JD, Flash, Bisu (those three do not surprise, for me it's JD!!!! >>>Bisu>Flash) but also Sea and great for example. Almost any game I watch has some excitement, even ZvZ can be amazing now that Shark explained what to look for  and some games just have these endless moments of "OMG WILL THAT WORK!?!?!?!?"And (yes this is getting longer) in BW you feel like stuff is happening everywhere and there is no moment to rest, because there is not that big deathball moving around the map or just actually idling in front of the natural waiting for something to happen or some timing to hit. Plus; already explained perfectly: + Show Spoiler + On March 09 2011 09:05 supernovamaniac wrote: [...] I actually beg to differ. Have you seen those BroodWar matches that kept you on the edge of the seat? For example, ZvZ situation. Player A has 8 lings that are running towards Player B's base. Player B, however, has only 4 lings. B has 3 unused larvae, and those 3 morph at the same time. You wait in anxiety to see if those 3 larvae turn into drones or zerglings. If zerglings come out, Player B can successfully block the attack. However, if the drones come out, Player B will have a severe disadvantage. You wait on the edge of the seat to see what pops out. However, in StarCraft 2, you know what the units are going to be even before they pop out. As soon as player hits the units, you know what's going to come out of the egg. My point here? Extra information is actually ruining the observing aspect of StarCraft 2. If the game was in StarCraft 2, I will know that Player B would've survived/died to the attack immediately, thus taking out the excitement/anxiety value of the match. In fact, when two armies battle in SC2, you can see the army value. Though this is only a rough estimate (and composition matters more than just the army value), the observers/spectators can guess that one player is going to win over the other player in the battle. If you cruise through the resources, you can predict which player is going to win based on the information. However, in BroodWar, you don't have all these extra info. When Protoss's nexus is destroyed, the spectators/observers never know if the P player left 400 minerals for another nexus (399 incident anyone?). Though they use FPview to confirm how much minerals that it has few seconds later, the spectators are trying to figure out if the P player can make another nexus. TBH, BW has more exciting moments because of the lack of information. With less information given to the spectators, the spectators have to guess what's going on, and hope that the player made the right decision. Sure, these moments will last for only few seconds, but that's what makes BW interesting. -> Now onto SC2 even though I'm sure I have forgotten some points for BW. There has been some games by MC for example where I had the feeling he was everywhere, with one templar here and there (I think it was LT) and basically attacking everywhere. There has been Nada vs. July yesterday which was good, Nada could hold off more than I thought, so there it was again that "WILL THIS BE ENOUGH?!" Moment. What I enjoy most right now is the fact that SC2 is developing constantly and I do see more games where the whole map is used (what I mean is pretty much: no deathball and that's it). I am hoping this will go on and this game will be even better (doesn't have to be a copy of BW at anytime, just more action/stuff happening throughout the game), because if not... I can only hope BW will stay for much longer ps. A little part now about playing BW.. I fucking miss muta micro in sc2... it sucks... god damn it sucks donkey balls : (( and I only found out about proper unit shoot-move micro about half a year ago with vultures for example, I never knew that and I played BW when it came out, but I was 10 or 9 and only played fastest :D so my BO was: start mining and hope to survive into build tanks into build turrets in the middle and siege tanks alongside + Show Spoiler + On March 09 2011 08:19 Kipsate wrote: I can't believe no one corrected this... IU has no flaws!!...flawed IU... :D sry had to edit: nice thread btw kipsate, I don't think stuff like that has to turn into a flamewar and exchanging thoughts on the games could be helpful for both "sides" to appreciate the other part to, in the end, become one "side" that is TL | ||
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YejinYejin
United States1053 Posts
People are saying they agree that the BW AI was really poor, and made you do more things, and therefore, whatever cool stuff that players did (JangBi storm, Bisu's multidrops vs Savior, etc.) was more difficult. Then, these same people follow it up by immediately saying, "But that doesn't impress me. I just wanna see cool stuff, I don't care how hard it was to do." I feel like if you're a true competitive gamer, then moments that show extreme displays of skill are what evoke emotion from you. Visceral appeal to shiny things and explosions should not. For example, behold this collection of what many consider to be "great" moments from a variety of competitive endeavours: + Show Spoiler + Greatest Moment in American Football? + Show Spoiler + Greatest Moment in Street Fighter? + Show Spoiler + A Fantastic Shot by Federer! + Show Spoiler + Game 4 of one of the Greatest SSBM Sets Ever! + Show Spoiler + The MMA One-Man Highlight Reel All of the excitement from each of these moments is the product of the innate difficulty of the respective task. For the first video, the football fan going crazy isn't thinking, "Omg 1 handed catches are so cool they just looks awesome!" Rather, he's thinking, "Holy shit how did Manning and Tyree just do that? How the hell did they just pull that off? SO GOOD" (unless you're a Patriots fan, in which case the ONLY thought going through your mind is "FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU-") See, each of those events is exciting. What makes them exciting? The fact that they're special - unique, even. What makes them unique? The fact that whatever task you saw is hard as balls to do, and that only the best of the best can do it. If you take away the technical skill in any competition, whether it's Starcraft or something else, you're removing all of the value to a spectator. So for the people who don't care how hard something is to execute, how much practice it takes just to pull off a single fancy move in whatever game, I leave you with this: All of a sudden, you're living in a parallel universe where the concept of difficulty does not exist. Everyone can do everything. Random 5 year olds can make the same shots that Federer can, and quadriplegics can catch a football just as well as any NFL wide receiver. It doesn't matter whether you have 2 apm or 200 apm, you can do anything you want in Starcraft 2. Now what? | ||
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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
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YejinYejin
United States1053 Posts
On March 09 2011 18:54 Turgid wrote: I don't think anyone's really completely dismissive of the role difficulty plays in making something exciting. At the very least it creates scarcity. It just isn't the only thing that matters. I'm not saying it's the only thing that matters. What I am saying is that it is absolutely necessary, and absolutely not sufficient. For a great moment from a spectator's point of view, you need to have several things. Firstly, you need the atmosphere to build it up. Something happening in Game 7 of the Stanley Cup is much more exciting for a spectator than something happening during some random game. You need to have the moment matter, as well. If a player does something incredibly difficult, but it has absolutely zero impact on the outcome of the game, then that makes for poor spectating. But once you have those other prerequisite ingredients, I would say that you absolutely need the difficulty inherent in whatever impressive task we're discussing. EDIT: In response to your edit: This may be a fundamental difference in opinion, then. I'm thoroughly bored when I obs random D- scrubs on iCCup. Occasionally I'll watch it for the laugh factor. I remember one game where the P and Z base traded most of their bases, and the P only had one observer left, while the Z had lurkers still on the map. P hasn't even started rebuilding his robo. Then their armies clash once, and P storms his own observer. But other than that, I actually find them quite painful. I simply don't find things that I can do interesting. While spectating whatever's going on, I will inevitably think, "Psh, I can do that," and then dismiss it. I'm incredibly impressed when people do things that I can't do, as I am right now or even with a year of practice. | ||
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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
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YejinYejin
United States1053 Posts
On March 09 2011 19:05 Turgid wrote: I don't think anyone disagrees with you though. Virtually everybody who watches SC2 regularly is impressed by the displays of skill in it. Nobody reacts to ChoyafOu's micro the same way they do oGsMC's. For one thing, Morfildur up there disagrees with me. Anyway, the next logical thing to ask is this: would making the displays of skill more difficult make them more impressive as well? | ||
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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
And I think the experience I've already elucidated clearly shows that, at least for me, while I suppose I'm more impressed by Flash than MC(in an academic way) it doesn't mean I'd rather WATCH Flash than MC. What Flash does is more difficult, but it doesn't make it more interesting or more fun to watch. For me. For many people who play and watch SC2. Though I'll reiterate in case someone sees this but misses my post earlier in the thread: I watch and enjoy Brood War. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
One thing that's been bothering me about BW lately is LR threads. Any player who isn't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, or Bisu gets relentlessly bashed, while the SC2 fans are more welcoming to new players since the game is still new. I know this has been happening for a while but it seems more escalated now. Also, there's the "IdrA challenge": If SC2 is so easy, why aren't you pro? | ||
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
To me, sc2 is a great game, but other than the fact that it happens to have starcraft in it's title, I see no reason to differentiate it from any other non-BW RTS game. It's like, just because BW was so successful, we at TL are somehow obliged to include sc2. I'm still super bitter that this random new game has completely taken over what used to be a premier BW site. I mean it still is, but really.. Just look at the featured news, like 1/20 is BW, the rest SC2. The OSL finals write up was front paged for like half a day for Christs sakes. The OSL! That is still the ultimate, absolute, most prestigious individual league gaming tournament period. And the calander, don't even get me started. I have to scroll past like 30 pages of really small, largely irrelevant sc2 tournaments casted by some random people in order to find the next time I get to see OZ vs Fox or KT vs SKT. KT vs SKT Really? Like the most notorious team rivalry of all time in starcraft doesn't even get a bolded title or something? Hell, the calendar is so cluttered, most of it is now text describing wtf each little tournament is. SC2 is a perfectly fine game, I just wish someone made TeamSolid.net or something and left TL alone. I admit, I've flamed and raged in all those BW vs SC2 threads too many times after clicking on "featured streams" and only getting a bajillion no-name, low diamond sc2 streams. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11133 Posts
On March 09 2011 19:13 DTK-m2 wrote: For one thing, Morfildur up there disagrees with me. Anyway, the next logical thing to ask is this: would making the displays of skill more difficult make them more impressive as well? I think it really depends on how the increase in difficulty is handled. I think the wrong way to handle the situation is to artificially increase the difficulty by making the UI or AI more cumbersome. As much as some people dislike MBS, automine, unlimited selection, and smart cast, removing these features at this point would cause an irreparable shitstorm to occur from the majority of players. SC2's UI was designed not to remove skill, but to relegate that skill to other locations. I think of it with this analogy: Playing BW was like trying to run a marathon with weights on arms and legs while wearing flip flops. Playing SC2 is like trying to run the same marathon but with proper shoes and without the weights. You can run the same speed in SC2 with less effort, but you can also run much faster without artificial handicaps weighing you down. This is why I dislike the argument that SC2 requires less mechanical skill and APM. Sure, it requires less to do the same amount of stuff as in BW. However, that doesn't mean that the extra mechanical skill and APM can't go towards things like increased multitasking or more precise micro. Sure, it's easier to macro off of 5 bases in SC2, but that only means that all that attention can be relegated to multitasking several simultaneous drops while microing spellcasters at the front. For example, during the Ret vs SlayerS_M games of the recent Code A tournament, Ret tried to macro off of several bases, which turned out to be more of a handicap than an actual advantage. M had superior multitasking, and was able to pull off multiple simultaneous drops against Ret's bases while taking advantage of Ret's diverted attention by pushing towards his main and sniping countless Infestors that were left idle by Ret's weaker multitasking. Mechanical skills still play a part in the game, just in different ways other than the ability to macro. Back to your question. I think the answer lies not with the UI but instead with the actual units in the game. A ton of units in BW were extremely powerful but difficult to use, like the Reaver+Shuttle, Defiler, and Mutas. SC2 has fewer of these types of units, but they still exist. Watching perfect Banshee or Void Ray micro is entertaining, especially when the player gets the maximum number of kills possible before escaping at the last second with one shot away from death. Drop micro is heavily underused, especially for Protoss, but it still exists. Marine micro and splits will always be entertaining. Heck, TLO used some impressive drop micro against Nada during a showmatch back during IEM Cologne (I think). TLO rotated hellions in and out of his dropship, perfectly syncing the timing to dodge marauder shots. I've also seen players do the same thing with Immortals and Warp Prisms, and I'm surprised that it isn't more popular. Hell, Storm Drops are way too underused even though they can still do terrible, terrible damage. SC2 needs a true equivalent of the Reaver+Shuttle for it to gain more spectator entertainment value. The current repertoire of units in the game is a good foundation, and I think it wouldn't be difficult for Blizzard to add a few "powerful but hard to use" units to spice up the game in the next expansions. It's not like the Reaver+Shuttle was completely game breaking anyways. You just couldn't mass up Reavers and win like you would with Colossi. Lower level players would be better off improving their macro, while the special units would only enhance the play of those already with proper fundamentals. -------- Anyways, I don't think SC2 should replicate BW. Too many people outside of TL find SC2 to only be a BW clone. You have to admit, it's impossible to make a Starcraft sequel that appeals to both the BW enthusiasts in addition to the people looking for something that isn't "BW with better graphics." Blizzard tried hard to compromise, and I think they did a decent job despite alienating parts of either end of the spectrum of casual and hardcore players. IMO, the average SC2 game may be less entertaining than the average BW game right now, but the quality of SC2 games are improving, especially in the Korean scene. The best matches of SC2 (MVP vs Squirtle, San vs Nestea, Jinro vs MC, Clide vs Leenock) are almost as entertaining, if not more so, than the best matches of BW. With new maps entering the competitive scene, the focus of the game will definitely shift away from a passive ball vs ball game to BW-esque games featuring aggression and harass in addition to long macro games. Also, I don't think SC2 has truly been figured out in many respects. For example, BW TvT was pretty much mech vs mech, tank line vs tank line. I've seen many posts in LR threads where people dread the 20 minute tank vs tank stalemate TvT games. However, SC2 TvT is still a wild beast with a much greater repertoire of viable builds. Terrans can go pure Bio, pure mech, a mech+bio hybrid, or perhaps even the iEchoic no-tank build in SC2 TvTs. I recently saw a show match between Boxer and Nada where Nada abused the mobility of bio against Boxer's more conventional tank lines. This is why I feel like watching the best of SC2 is extremely entertaining. Despite all the naysayers, not everything has been figured out, and the game is far from being truly figured out. Until I see Protoss utilizing Warp Prisms more a la BW style, I don't think SC2 is close to being played at the optimal level. This is why I find GSL so entertaining; every time I tune in, I experience the possibility of watching the next evolution of the metagame unfold before my eyes. It was only during GSL4 when Boxer unveiled the mass Orbitals strategy that has become increasingly popular in late game TvX. It was truly a treat to witness MKP revolutionize TvZ in GSL2 with his aggressive, micro-heavy mass-marines style. Watching GuineaPig's unique Forge FE into sky Protoss style was awe-inspiring, and even though Hyperdub and MKP were knocked out in GSL5, their attempts at the no-tank iEchoic build indicated that it was possibly a viable strategy at high levels. Of course, people bash on PvP for being a one-dimensional 4gate fest, especially since it rarely goes into a truly entertaining late game. However, I think ZvZ in BW wasn't much different at some points in time. Both SC2 PvP and BW ZvZ are often considered to be broken, 10 minute micro battles at the highest levels. However, BW ZvZ can occasionally suddenly become extremely deep once the muta battle subsides and both players reach Hive tech. Likewise, I feel that SC2 PvP will soon experience a similar revolution where breaking out of the 4gate openers may unveil an entertaining late game that revolves around more than Colossi counts. IMO, watching SC2 and its competitive scene is like watching BW in fast motion. The metagame shifts every few weeks, yet there is still a long ways to go before optimal play is reached. The drama in the competitive scene is already developing, and the Western competitive scene is exploding in popularity and may have the possibility of breaking out of its niche as an e-sport. LOL, wall of text. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On March 09 2011 19:13 DTK-m2 wrote: For one thing, Morfildur up there disagrees with me. Anyway, the next logical thing to ask is this: would making the displays of skill more difficult make them more impressive as well? We just seem to have a different opionion of "display of skill". I don't care how fast someone can click to build units, it doesn't matter to me. Wether he uses one click to build 100 units or 100 clicks to build one units and does it in the same time... i don't care. Wether he uses 1 click to storm or 2 (smartcasting)... who cares? What matters to the observer is the result, not what was done to achieve it. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 09 2011 20:04 Morfildur wrote: We just seem to have a different opionion of "display of skill". I don't care how fast someone can click to build units, it doesn't matter to me. Wether he uses one click to build 100 units or 100 clicks to build one units and does it in the same time... i don't care. Wether he uses 1 click to storm or 2 (smartcasting)... who cares? What matters to the observer is the result, not what was done to achieve it. That does not matter to you, but it does to me, I care about the means used to achieve such a result, thats why it is so amazing what players can do. You can not fathom to copy or be near such players, they are clearly so much better then the rest. And that factor attributes to the spectatorship and becoming a fan of a certain player. The means to an end matter for some people and appearently not for you, but that is oke. | ||
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:46 awu25 wrote: The only thing I can't get over is this argument of "the game is too easy." Blizzard said it themselves that they are making a game that is easy for a casual to be 'good/decent'. On March 09 2011 19:31 jalstar wrote: I watch both. They're both great RTS games. One thing that's been bothering me about BW lately is LR threads. Any player who isn't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, or Bisu gets relentlessly bashed, while the SC2 fans are more welcoming to new players since the game is still new. I know this has been happening for a while but it seems more escalated now. Also, there's the "IdrA challenge": If SC2 is so easy, why aren't you pro? There are other likable player like Stats, Baby, FBH, Sea, Great, Hydra to name some .. It's very rare to see these guys being bashed. And I don't see it as bashing, it's more of the emotional investment they have on certain players/teams. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On March 09 2011 20:18 Kipsate wrote: That does not matter to you, but it does to me, I care about the means used to achieve such a result, thats why it is so amazing what players can do. You can not fathom to copy or be near such players, they are clearly so much better then the rest. And that factor attributes to the spectatorship and becoming a fan of a certain player. The means to an end matter for some people and appearently not for you, but that is oke. The post you quoted is really silly. Even if you 'don't care how it was achieved' the clear difference is, you get Jangbi storms in every game, you get BeSt macro every game, so why would these things be continually impressive. I guess i can't understand how simply the result would impress anyone. Of course SC2 still requires heavy multitask particularly late game but personally, to me i find something like Snow's harassment PvZ (for a recent example) far better to watch spectator wise, even with the harder macro and 12 unit groups he still manages to drop all over the place. | ||
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