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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
On December 31 2010 02:12 Mise wrote: TOP is code A. He can't get to GSL 4 finals. I was under the impression that code A players can qualify for the 'big' GSL tournaments with the biggest prize pool and that being code S only guarenteed your spot / seed in it. | ||
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HeroHenry
United States1723 Posts
On December 31 2010 02:15 Telcontar wrote: I was under the impression that code A players can qualify for the 'big' GSL tournaments with the biggest prize pool and that being code S only guarenteed your spot / seed in it. Top would have to finish top 8 in Code A to get a chance for code S for gsl5. | ||
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
On December 31 2010 02:16 HeroHenry wrote: Top would have to finish top 8 in Code A to get a chance for code S for gsl5. Ahh i was thinking of the Super Tournament which happens in may and only once per year. I know that GSL Sponsorship League is divided firmly by the different Codes. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On December 31 2010 02:10 GG.Lonely wrote: Replays from match for the third place and final: http://hotfile.com/dl/93069258/28b6e65/Kaspersky-3rd-place-and-final.zip.html That's it for now. Happy New Year everybody and thanks to all involved! wow super fast. thanks a bunch! | ||
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7mk
Germany10156 Posts
On December 31 2010 02:04 Telcontar wrote: He wasn't much ahead mind you. If MC pushed that gold with his colossi, TOP would've been hardpressed to hold it. Like nazgul said, that small squad of marines really bought enough time to get the PF up and build up the viking count. Brilliant tactic by TOP. Yea at the point at which top had only like 2 vikings he mightve been able to punish top for it. I do think it was smart expo timing either way though. | ||
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namedplayer
844 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On December 31 2010 02:05 ParasitJonte wrote: That's the reason I've thought PvT is unfair. But since MC destroyed everything in GSL I thought he had it down. Perhaps he does and he just hit a bad beat. I didn't see the first games but the last game he played good. He couldn't keep up with Top's expanding because you just can't do that as P; you'll die. He got his templars, he had great control. But there's just no way. Edit: fuck me, why do I have to troll with the balance issues. Sorry guys. I feel like part of this bad control could have been largely due to the delay(storms/forcefields). As for MC having pvt down..I think he does, however i think now top terrans(oGsToP) are figuring a new way to combat it. | ||
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
On December 31 2010 02:29 ReachTheSky wrote: I feel like part of this bad control could have been largely due to the delay(storms/forcefields). As for MC having pvt down..I think he does, however i think now top terrans(oGsToP) are figuring a new way to combat it. Serious question though, what did TOP do that was so different? The base trade was kind of a luck situation for game 1 so ignore that. The 2nd game was the standard Raven/Banshee push (more of a Jinro style than say Polt). The 3rd/4th game was standard MMM+vikings. I genuinely think that TOP had simply superior mechanics overall which won him the series as surprising as that sounds against MC. | ||
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Ipp
United States456 Posts
On December 31 2010 01:29 Telcontar wrote: Ipp really thinks 2nd gas before cyber core is common? sigh.... I said it was early but not for MC? Also every caster will make a mistake. Additionally MC and TOP were in the same house and TOP had A+ EMP's, lag didn't seem to be a major issue. Edit: Everyone has a bad series every now and then, but keep in mind these to play a lot and non of MC's little tricks worked well on TOP. While MC Built the Void Rays in G4; TOP had just the bare minimum marines to keep them scared. He didn't stim which was a big help not taking that damage putting his units in the Red overtime; just really good decision making from TOP. Lastly, everyone was calling TOP a cheesy player and he showed us that he has a macro game too; only 1 game was won off of "1 basing". | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On December 31 2010 02:39 PartyBiscuit wrote: Serious question though, what did TOP do that was so different? The base trade was kind of a luck situation for game 1 so ignore that. The 2nd game was the standard Raven/Banshee push (more of a Jinro style than say Polt). The 3rd/4th game was standard MMM+vikings. I genuinely think that TOP had simply superior mechanics overall which won him the series as surprising as that sounds against MC. I really don't see it the same way. What you considered 'standard' only happened after Top had already secured an advantage by playing (also strategically) better not by being mechanically superior. In game 3 he got a big advantage by holding off the Void Rays brilliantly and having his expansion running safely way before MC did. Game 4 he countered with 6 marines which allowed him to get a quick gold expansion up and MC was fighting an uphill battle from that point on. MC never even got his gold up in that game I don't see how you can point at this games and say it was standard so mechanics must have made the difference. Every single game that lead up to standard armies Top went into that stage with an advantage due to strategy. Contrary to what many here believe losing 0-4 does not make Top the better and superior player. It makes him the better and superior player today. Nothing else. To really say something about who is better you need to look at a much larger sample of games. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
On December 31 2010 03:00 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I really don't see it the same way. What you considered 'standard' only happened after Top had already secured an advantage by playing (also strategically) better not by being mechanically superior. In game 3 he got a big advantage by holding off the Void Rays brilliantly and having his expansion running safely way before MC did. Game 4 he countered with 6 marines which allowed him to get a quick gold expansion up and MC was fighting an uphill battle from that point on. MC never even got his gold up in that game I don't see how you can point at this games and say it was standard so mechanics must have made the difference. Every single game that lead up to standard armies Top went into that stage with an advantage due to strategy. Contrary to what many here believe losing 0-4 does not make Top the better and superior player. It makes him the better and superior player today. Nothing else. To really say something about who is better you need to look at a much larger sample of games. Isn't there also a factor that not top nor mc would like to show their new build orders ? | ||
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Entropic
Canada2837 Posts
On December 31 2010 03:00 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I really don't see it the same way. What you considered 'standard' only happened after Top had already secured an advantage by playing (also strategically) better not by being mechanically superior. In game 3 he got a big advantage by holding off the Void Rays brilliantly and having his expansion running safely way before MC did. Game 4 he countered with 6 marines which allowed him to get a quick gold expansion up and MC was fighting an uphill battle from that point on. MC never even got his gold up in that game I don't see how you can point at this games and say it was standard so mechanics must have made the difference. Every single game that lead up to standard armies Top went into that stage with an advantage due to strategy. Contrary to what many here believe losing 0-4 does not make Top the better and superior player. It makes him the better and superior player today. Nothing else. To really say something about who is better you need to look at a much larger sample of games. Guess Nazgul got really tired of people claiming imba this imba that off 1 series lol. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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Baffels
United States1486 Posts
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Game 1: FE vs 1 Base All In Game 2: FE vs 1 Base All In Game 3: FE vs Bad semi-cheesy voidrays so MC expands, game actually goes into mid game, so both guys 1a into each others armies at the exact center of the map to see who wins Game 4: Both players fast expand, then expand again, nothing happens until both players are on 3 base and protoss have HT. MC actually manages to hit BAD storms, and loses the game. Terran had better executed builds (winning FE vs 4 gate and FE vs voidray harass) and protoss executed poorly so protoss lost, game 4 was kind of strategical, but the protoss would have done a lot better if not for his bad storms (execution) User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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cive
Canada370 Posts
On December 31 2010 03:32 Blyadischa wrote: Starcraft 2 = games like + Show Spoiler + Game 1: FE vs 1 Base All In Game 2: FE vs 1 Base All In Game 3: FE vs Bad semi-cheesy voidrays so MC expands, game actually goes into mid game, so both guys 1a into each others armies at the exact center of the map to see who wins Game 4: Both players fast expand, then expand again, nothing happens until both players are on 3 base and protoss have HT. MC actually manages to hit BAD storms, and loses the game. Terran had better executed builds (winning FE vs 4 gate and FE vs voidray harass) and protoss executed poorly to beat the protoss better, game 4 was kind of strategical, but the protoss would have won if not for his bad storms (execution) I'm pretty sure thats how all RTS games are. You either choose to secure an economy thus making you defensive or choose to collect a sizable army that will break that defense at a certain time. I know for sure Starcraft Brood War was like this. Sometimes the deciding battles are more than one but could have been expressed exactly like what you wrote there. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
The most interesting part is Top's fast expansion build. 1 rax marauder + concussive into 3 rax and then a fourth. Seems pretty solid. On shakuras MC did what I consider to be the best counter. Well almost. 1 stargate voids. However, I do 1 void ray + expand where I use the void for defensive purposes. MC, being super aggressive, built 3 voids before his expansion. Due to latency he mismicroed and died 2 of them (he wasn't facing stim or anything so, I doubt it was because of anything other than latency). In the end, his expansion is now way late and he didn't manage to do anything with his voids. Even though he sees the heavy marauder, he doesn't build more voids. Top trades armies and gets his third expansion up. Imagine at that army trade moment what would've happened if MC had his voids left and had even build 1-2 more of them. Top wouldn't have attacked and MC would have been so much more free. Now he is just consistently behind and loses. Final game on Xel Naga MC is up against the same build for Top. He now avoids voids (lol). Probably because there is no positional advantage as there was on Shakuras. I still think 1 stargate void ray + fast expand is the best counter to Top's build (this is from own experience - not playing Top but playing the same build). But MC probably doesn't consider voids to be useful defensively... MC instead opts for a safe 3 gate expansion build. It's not really possible to build the nexus before starting three gates because you will have to cancel (or lose the game) against 1 rax marauder + concussive + 2 marines pressure (even though he is getting his command center freakishly fast!). But this 3 gate expand is a bit slower. Still MC is really never out of the game. I'm really impressed by how well he uses high templars. He uses them defensively in a very impressive manner. Top counters that beautifully though with ghosts but MC still uses the high templars really well (unlike what some people claim in this thread). He decisively wins the "main battle" and at this point I'm feeling that he can probably get his gold up and just survive until he's at 200 as well. Then he can get offensive. Basically because he knows that he can beat a 200 army with an 170 army easily. But Top just does a couple of really great moves during that game. First with the marines, hindering MC from being aggressive once the planetary is getting set up. He sends 4 marauders to attack the third expansion, forcing MC to waste storms while being caught of guard and in general making the situation awkward for MC. He uses his vikings to the max. Lands them at third and takes out some probes. Then comes the final blow with the drop in the main. Vikings plus 2 medivacs with units. MC's army is way out of position and he loses a lot there. Then he does the mistake that we all do sometimes. We know that we don't _have_ to send our entire army to deal with the units that are left. But for some reason we sometimes do. This leaves MC's third expansion vulnerable and Top is smart to kill it. From there the game is over. All in all I would say that Top played really good TvP. It's a very awkward match-up from the Protoss point of view though. | ||
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
On December 31 2010 03:41 cive wrote: I'm pretty sure thats how all RTS games are. You either choose to secure an economy thus making you defensive or choose to collect a sizable army that will break that defense at a certain time. I know for sure Starcraft Brood War was like this. Sometimes the deciding battles are more than one but could have been expressed exactly like what you wrote there. Is that a joke? Watch ANY OSL/MSL and tell me if you see 2 1 base all ins, then in another game failed cheesy harass, no action for 5 minutes, into 1a in the middle of the map, then for another game no action for 16 minutes, then one player killing his own units. The point I'm trying to make is that the current state of the game (unit balance/map size mostly) encourage 1 base all inning, cheesing, or macroing then having a single 1a into each others army in the middle of the map to decide the game | ||
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Coulthard
Greece3359 Posts
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