oGsMC's PvT [GSL spoiler inside] - Page 2
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
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McMonty
Canada379 Posts
By that I mean I will never open robo after reading this.Never liked how collosus always had that giant red target over them against Terran. | ||
ComTrav
United States1093 Posts
On December 20 2010 05:29 oZii wrote: First I want to say thank you for this break down. Hopefully many people read the entire OP(keyword hopefully). Now to the OP what about Banshee play? I watched the majority of his games and read your re-caps. How does the timing work out if terran is rushing banshee? Would the results have been different? He lost to Banshees on Xel'Naga in the finals. Rain actually faked a second barracks and built a handful of Marauders to fake MC out. MC does a lot of early pressure, I suspect he's somewhat confident in his early pressure wrecking (or at least scouting) a Banshee build. It takes ~8 minutes to get to get to cloak, unless Terran is doing some gas-before-rax shens which are super easy to scout. | ||
Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On December 20 2010 05:39 McMonty wrote: THIS CHANGES EVERYTHINGGGGG. By that I mean I will never open robo after reading this.Never liked how collosus always had that giant red target over them against Terran. consider getting a forge at least, to hold banshees. The biggest reason people dont go early SG vs T is the lack of observer. | ||
itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
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sihyunie
United States108 Posts
On December 20 2010 05:15 Aquafresh wrote: I don't think you can pin one specific style on MC, as you can see he did a bunch of different things in all his matchups rather than rely on one specific build to crush what most terrans are doing. You can point out some things he favors in his play, such as void ray/gateway mixes, early aggression, and delayed tier 3 tech, but I think this sells his success a bit short. I think he's good PvT because he has top notch mechanics, and he understands the matchup at a level most other protoss simply haven't gotten to yet. He knows what Terran is capable of, and what Protoss is capable of and exploits it. I think you are just reiterating my point, although my post is so long that it may not have been very clear. As I said, MC mentioned in his interview, he feels that other protoss doesn't understand terran match up as well as he does. His "style" or approach to PvT is to stay aggressive and harass terran and break him if you can. Warp gate heavy or stargate first builds play well into this philosophy as seen in his choice of early game tech trees. When I mention tech, I'm strictly speaking about his first choice out of the 3 (well actually 4 if you count warp gate only plays). On December 20 2010 05:29 oZii wrote: First I want to say thank you for this break down. Hopefully many people read the entire OP(keyword hopefully). Now to the OP what about Banshee play? I watched the majority of his games and read your re-caps. How does the timing work out if terran is rushing banshee? Would the results have been different? Even with 1 stargate, 3 warp gate builds, if he scouts or suspect banshee play, he can get robo and get an observer after 1st void ray. The timing works out because cloak upgrade takes so long. In his game 3 against Rain, he was tricked into thinking it was early racks aggression, so he expanded with sentry heavy army and kept getting more units. If he suspected banshee, he could've gotten robo by stop making units out of warp gates (basically not stay at 1 zealot 6 sentries for a while) and he wouldn't have taken so much damage even with expansion up. | ||
Gecko
United States519 Posts
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PulseSUI
Switzerland305 Posts
On December 20 2010 04:52 sihyunie wrote: Colossus: Robo (200/100, 65 sec), Robo Bay (200/200, 65 sec), Colossus (300/200, 75 sec), Thermal Lacne (200/200, 140 sec) = 900/700, 345 sec Termal Lance can be started as soon as you have the robo bay, no need to wait for the Colossus to finish. Robo 65 sec -> Bay 65 sec -> Lance 140 sec -> Colossus 75 sec. if you use a Chronoboost on the Colossus and the Lance each, you will have a upgraded Colossus 245 seconds after tech-start. wich is a full 90 sec sooner then what you claimed. that is that. on topic: MC's TvP is very strong indeed, but i disagree that it is due to delayed tech in favor off more gateway units. his PvT and probably also PvZ looks so sick powerfull because he abuses forcefields, wich is a utterly broken spell. that, in it self, is nothing new, you have to have Colossus, High Templars or Forcefields to be able to beat Zerg or Terran as a protoss player. what makes MC special is the fact that he does not miss with his forcefields, wich is also the reason that most protoss that will try to copy his style will fail.. they WILL miss forcefields and will in turn get lol-stomped by the enemy army. | ||
Befree
694 Posts
What impressed me more was the few glimpses at his late-game. The army compositions that he was using just almost seemed unstoppable. His focus on Immortal/HT/Zealot in the final LT game was able to break him out of situations that seemed unbeatable and utterly destroy similar/superior armies. That along with his heavy use of Warp Prisms I found to be far more impressive than his 4 warpgate/3 warp gate, stargate rushes. It's too bad we were mostly just stuck seeing him do early attacks. I hope in the next S-Class tournament, we can see some more of his late game. | ||
gr8ape
Canada302 Posts
On December 20 2010 05:56 PulseSUI wrote: Termal Lance can be started as soon as you have the robo bay, no need to wait for the Colossus to finish. Robo 65 sec -> Bay 65 sec -> Lance 140 sec -> Colossus 75 sec. if you use a Chronoboost on the Colossus and the Lance each, you will have a upgraded Colossus 245 seconds after tech-start. wich is a full 90 sec sooner then what you claimed. that is that. on topic: MC's TvP is very strong indeed, but i disagree that it is due to delayed tech in favor off more gateway units. his PvT and probably also PvZ looks so sick powerfull because he abuses forcefields, wich is a utterly broken spell. that, in it self, is nothing new, you have to have Colossus, High Templars or Forcefields to be able to beat Zerg or Terran as a protoss player. what makes MC special is the fact that he does not miss with his forcefields, wich is also the reason that most protoss that will try to copy his style will fail.. they WILL miss forcefields and will in turn get lol-stomped by the enemy army. so youre able to research thermal lance AND make a colossus when your bay finishes? off one base? plz tell me your build order | ||
PulseSUI
Switzerland305 Posts
On December 20 2010 06:09 gr8ape wrote: so youre able to research thermal lance AND make a colossus when your bay finishes? off one base? plz tell me your build order no, you start the termal lance and 1 minute later the Colossus, giving you the Colossus exactly 5 seconds before Termal lance will be finished. as i said, it gives you a upgraded Colossus substantialy faster then going Colossus first. | ||
Severedevil
United States4798 Posts
On December 20 2010 06:20 PulseSUI wrote: no, you start the termal lance and 1 minute later the Colossus, giving you the Colossus exactly 5 seconds before Termal lance will be finished. as i said, it gives you a upgraded Colossus substantialy faster then going Colossus first. But only one. Wouldn't it be better to have two unupgraded Colossi? | ||
Darksoldierr
Hungary2010 Posts
On December 20 2010 06:29 Severedevil wrote: But only one. Wouldn't it be better to have two unupgraded Colossi? Based on the situation | ||
PulseSUI
Switzerland305 Posts
On December 20 2010 06:29 Severedevil wrote: Wouldn't it be better to have two unupgraded Colossi? no? two unpgraded Colossus that tower above your army will simply deliver some damage until they are focused down by the terran army, who has mostly the same 6 range as a unupgraded COlossus. a 9 range Colossus will probably live longer then two unpgraded ones and deal more damage, but the most importand part is that a upgraded Colossus stops a terran bioball from kiting your gateway army without suffering damage... something even 4 upgraded Colossus could not do. sort of off topic thought... and was only a short remark to the OP that was not intended to derail the topic. | ||
green.at
Austria1459 Posts
nuff said | ||
oZii
United States1198 Posts
On December 20 2010 05:36 Supamang wrote: So youre saying you agree that he won a macro game...? Elaborate please Game 2 was like a little over 30 minutes game had mutliple bases multiple drops dt drops, harassment all over the place by both players. MC won that game. http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens3/vod/1459 Yes I agree that he won macro game. I re-edited when I saw how that looked. | ||
Werx
United States54 Posts
On December 20 2010 04:52 sihyunie wrote: 2. Blistering Sands. 4 warp gate push with heavy stalker composition. Terran also had 4 racks, but was marine heavy. It was a 2 gate push where the second gate was proxied by the terran's xel'naga, 2 more gates were never thrown down. The pressure was actually setting up for an expansion/possible tech (dt's or colossus). On December 20 2010 04:52 sihyunie wrote: 2. Lost Temple. 1 stargate 3 warp gates. harasses terran choke again. After seeing marine tank composition again with observer, mixes in immortals and harasses a little with DT. Breaks terran contain with zealot immortal heavy army with HT mixed in. Added colossus to win. Should be noted that he went stargate, robo, 4 gates, and dt tech all off 1 base before expanding to another main and soon after at his natural. First expansion went down at about 12 minutes, not long before his main was mined out. Also should be noted the use of warp prisms/blink to take advantage of the tank heavy composition's immobility. | ||
oZii
United States1198 Posts
On December 20 2010 05:45 sihyunie wrote: I think you are just reiterating my point, although my post is so long that it may not have been very clear. As I said, MC mentioned in his interview, he feels that other protoss doesn't understand terran match up as well as he does. His "style" or approach to PvT is to stay aggressive and harass terran and break him if you can. Warp gate heavy or stargate first builds play well into this philosophy as seen in his choice of early game tech trees. When I mention tech, I'm strictly speaking about his first choice out of the 3 (well actually 4 if you count warp gate only plays). Even with 1 stargate, 3 warp gate builds, if he scouts or suspect banshee play, he can get robo and get an observer after 1st void ray. The timing works out because cloak upgrade takes so long. In his game 3 against Rain, he was tricked into thinking it was early racks aggression, so he expanded with sentry heavy army and kept getting more units. If he suspected banshee, he could've gotten robo by stop making units out of warp gates (basically not stay at 1 zealot 6 sentries for a while) and he wouldn't have taken so much damage even with expansion up. Ok thanks for explaining I figured that was the case, | ||
Rajay
United States30 Posts
If the above is actually true then it definitely sounds like MC macro isn't lacking in the least. I think the reason we dont see long games with him isn't so much that isn't his strong point, but his first pushes are just too damn strong. | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
This is a guy who is vowing to study CAMERA MOVEMENTS so he can properly do a ceremony. His dedication to his practice must be ridonculous. /sarcasm Just my thoughts. | ||
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