it cost 150 minerals ot upgrade to orbital CC and you can use it unlimited times depending on how you want to spent your cc energy. The 270 minerals doesn't go away when you use scan.
the 100th reply xD
Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
lemonbone
Hong Kong154 Posts
it cost 150 minerals ot upgrade to orbital CC and you can use it unlimited times depending on how you want to spent your cc energy. The 270 minerals doesn't go away when you use scan. the 100th reply xD | ||
Malloy
Canada166 Posts
Real cost; 50 energy Opportunity cost; Mule or Scan or Supply (only 1) --If mule is selected; No scan or supply --If Scan is selected; No mule or supply --If Supply is selected; No scan or mule That's the cost part. Now let's talk forgone opportunity; --If mule is selected; You may die to cloacked units and will be down 8 instant supply. --If Scan is selected; You will not get 270 extra minerals and will be down 8 instant supply. --If Supply is selected; You will not get 270 extra minerals and may die to cloacked units. Those that are Terran and say that a forgone mule is worth 270 minerals are only partially correct. A mule is also worth negative 8 supply and the danger of being killed by cloaked units. | ||
Cephyric
Switzerland16 Posts
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
You'd have to discount every "cashflow" (everytime the mule brings back minerals) by an "interest rate" (you could calculate with the speed at wich SVCs mine, and how much they cost), and of course even then it would not be completely accurate because of saturation issues, etc. But as I understand it, a mule mines as much as 4 scvs right? And a scan only deprives you of these 4 scvs for a limited time. So I'd say the real present cost has to be lower than 200, I'd put it around 150. Or maybe someone will tell me I'm completely wrong, I don't know | ||
SCdinner
Canada516 Posts
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sahbeewah
Australia7 Posts
Why does a mule cost 270 minerals? Because regardless of the specific situation and how much more beneficial using a scan or supply drop would be, using a mule and obtaining that 270 minerals is the most economically efficient option to take. By not using your mule you are sacrificing your potential income - which makes it a cost. For example, let's say you're being paid royalties at a constant rate. Now you have the option to sleep or to do a side job - both of which are available to you. Neither of which "costs" any money, but in fact if you choose to sleep, you won't be receiving the money you would otherwise get from doing the side job. So if you sleep, it is in fact costing you money that you would have otherwise earned. The fact that you'll eventually get that money from your royalties is irrelevant. | ||
Riot Janook
United States112 Posts
Is there anyone in here on the "Scan is free" side who has taken an Economics course? | ||
Chill
Calgary25940 Posts
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machination
United States175 Posts
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On November 30 2010 22:11 ledarsi wrote: + Show Spoiler + A solid argument proving what terrans are generally well aware of. People complain about mules being overpowered, when actually they are the weakest of the three macro mechanics under most circumstances. A scan is indeed worth 1 mule, which is 270 minerals, and also means you didnt take advantage of the terran macro mechanic, whereas the protoss and zerg's macro mechanics are in force at all times. An orbital command can maintain a single mule constantly- it saves exactly enough energy for the next in the time it takes the last one to expire. A mule harvests about 270 minerals over a 90 second period, or about 3 minerals per second, equivalent to 3 scv's. Therefore each orbital command is, assuming you never scan, worth about 3 scv's permanently in exchange for a 150 mineral investment. Completely worth doing, obviously. However that is a flat +3 workers whereas chronoboost is a +50% worker production. For low econ games the mule shines since it is a flat bonus to your worker count, take a look at GSL 3 games using marine+scv rushes to keep both players on low economy, and counting on the mule to give the terran an advantage. The other two races have exponentially scaling macro mechanics. Especially zerg. Even without queens, zerg spawns larvae once every 13 seconds, and the build time on an scv is 17 seconds. Constant drone production out of a single hatchery, no macro mechanic required, results in 1.3 times more workers than the terran. With larvae injections adding 4 larvae every 40 seconds, the resultant value is about 7 larvae every 40 seconds. In that time a terran can make 2.35 workers, and the zerg can have 7. Naturally the zerg also needs these larvae to make military units, but you can't say that the terran economy is excessively powerful when compared with either of the other two sides A bit OT, but it's good that someone else understands this. Have had long arguments about this, where people keep stating "mule OP lolololo" and I just *facepalm*(though a mule equals 4.5 workers[worker mines 40minerals/min or 0.667 min/s vs 3 min/s of mule]). Heck 1 injection(per OC the terran has) devoted to drones and the zerg is ahead in econ for the rest of the game(aslong as the zerg uses the natural larvae spawn for mostly drones and inject larvae for combat units). Same with toss, CB a nexus for 6min and you are ahead in econ and have CB available free to do what you like, build even better econ than the terran or push units out faster. Ofcourse both races are built with that in mind, the research time for toss taking forever without CB and buildings costing drones for zerg, but for econ the macro mechanic of terran pales in comparison to the other 2 races. Oversaturation makes this a bit more tricky though and isn't really calculate able but it indicates that terran is stronger on 1/fewer bases(just like we see ingame). | ||
baconbits
United States419 Posts
Mule lets you mine faster, increasing your income TEMPORARILY for 50 energy. Scan cost 50 energy and temporarily gives you vision and detection. Choosing a scan vs a mule cost INCOME RATE (minerals per second) not your actual minerals. You will still end up mining those 270 minerals, just slower. It doesn't magically reduce your mineral patch by 270. Calldown supply effectively generates a free 100 minerals in the form up your depot doubling its supply allowance. | ||
Jayrod
1820 Posts
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Grummler
Germany743 Posts
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YuMSc2
Switzerland104 Posts
Of course, the scan has an oppertunity cost of a mule or a supply drop, but that doesn't mean scanning makes you somehow LOSE 270 minerals. Be thankful and stop whining. | ||
hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
it's obvious that a scan costs a mule which can be translated to roughly 270 minerals over 90 seconds. if you don't use mule then you're going to be ~270 minerals lighter after 90 seconds. is it really so hard to understand? income = income On December 01 2010 02:27 rexyrex wrote: Terran users seem to take mules for granted. That's why they think not getting a mule is a COST rather than an ADVANTAGE. Of course, the scan has an oppertunity cost of a mule or a supply drop, but that doesn't mean scanning makes you somehow LOSE 270 minerals. Be thankful and stop whining. it's the same with zerg... creep tumour costs a larva injection and whatever valuation you would associate with that injection would be a legit COST. | ||
MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On December 01 2010 01:29 MilesTeg wrote: That it pays 270 over a period of time isn't relevant when you make the decision to scan or mule. Would you pay 270 for something that gives back 270 over 30 minutes? You'd have to discount every "cashflow" (everytime the mule brings back minerals) by an "interest rate" (you could calculate with the speed at wich SVCs mine, and how much they cost), and of course even then it would not be completely accurate because of saturation issues, etc. But as I understand it, a mule mines as much as 4 scvs right? And a scan only deprives you of these 4 scvs for a limited time. So I'd say the real present cost has to be lower than 200, I'd put it around 150. Or maybe someone will tell me I'm completely wrong, I don't know Quoting myself, as I guess one other thing to consider is that the mule comes instantly, while one scv takes some time to build, so it's probably worth a little more than I thought. Anyway it'd be interesting to find out, if someone has the time to do the real calculation. A good way to think about it, is to ask yourself the question: if I had the choice to pay minerals instead of energy, how much would I be willing to pay at most? | ||
dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
If you scan, you sacrifice ~270 minerals being mined over the next 90 seconds (not accounting game speed). What you gain is any number of the following: a) security against cloaked/hidden units, b) knowledge of enemy production facilities/economy, c) enemy army composition To some players, getting a chance at particular information far exceeds the 270 minerals added to infrastructure. You can gain perfect knowledge worth hundreds of minerals and gas, or gain nothing. Knowing where to engage, what you're engaging against, you can't put a real time value on scans like that. | ||
boredrex
United States137 Posts
A mule will harvest 240-270 minerals over 90 seconds. A supply call down saves about 120 minerals (SCV building cannot harvest), which is immediate. If you get a mule, and you are not supply capped, you will need to eventually build a supply depot, which costs 120 minerals which could have saved. However, these 120 minerals are INSTANT savings, whereas the 270 minerals from a MULE are over time. If we go further, and assume that because the Terran player did not build a supply depot, the benefits from a MULE are actually 140 minerals over 90 seconds, since you would have to build a supply depot. So basically, heres the run down MULE give 140-270 minerals over time, depending on your supply situation. If you are capped or have a deficit of units, MULES are worth 270 minerals. If you are close to your supply limit, it is actually only worth ~140, but note that this is OVER TIME Supply depot call down is like spending an instant 120 minerals for no cost. You receive the 100 minerals right away, which is then spent on a supply depot. Over the next 30 seconds, your worker will give you the remaining 20 minerals. Note that a majority of this is INSTANT, some is residual. 120 minerals up front in 90 seconds is a better deal than 140 minerals over 90. Another consideration is space - sometimes, a player wants to save space in their main, so a supply depot call down is worth even more then, but I am not going to put a value on that. A Scans value is dependent on the amount of information garnered, or the ability to use this to defend yourself. Is a scan worth 270 minerals? Sometimes. But I think I tried to answer if a MULE is worth 270 minerals, and while it might be, it could also only be worth a relative 140 minerals. I feel like there might be a flaw with this argument, but either way, I think people undervalue supply depot call down. In practice, I usually use MULEs early game until 7 minutes, then I wait a little until I have enough for a single emergency scan. | ||
baconbits
United States419 Posts
lost mining time is a lower income rate, not a mineral cost. For all races. | ||
MementoMori
Canada419 Posts
On December 01 2010 02:54 dudeman001 wrote: This is still being discussed? If you scan, you sacrifice ~270 minerals being mined over the next 90 seconds (not accounting game speed) What else is there to say than this. This is what the choice between a MULE and scan entails. No disrespect but I honestly don't see how this is 6 pages of discussion. A lot of the arguments going on in here are people arguing over wording but that's it. | ||
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