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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
Just did a 9 min timing push.... a bit all in while expending with zealot and heavy sentry army. The game is going into the later stage where i go mass blink stalker with a lot of sentry and eventually lose while trying to go storm. Just for reference... Blink stalker +2 and sentry with shield dont beat muta/ling. (he had 0/0 for 3/4 of the game) Btw: I know i was a bit behind economically after the push... ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164001.jpg) | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 08 2010 16:44 Yokoblue wrote: Im a 2000 Diamond Protoss player. Just did a 9 min timing push.... a bit all in while expending with zealot and heavy sentry army. The game is going into the later stage where i go mass blink stalker with a lot of sentry and eventually lose while trying to go storm. Just for reference... Blink stalker +2 and sentry with shield dont beat muta/ling. (he had 0/0 for 3/4 of the game) Btw: I know i was a bit behind economically after the push... Stalker/sentry has no DPS. You can defend chokes with it because the lings will be neutralized, but you'll never be able to push out with that composition. You need storm, collosi, archons or enough stalkers to beat the mutas AND enough zealots to beat the lings. P needs a much larger force to beat muta-ling if they don't have good AoE damage. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On November 09 2010 03:16 kcdc wrote: Stalker/sentry has no DPS. You can defend chokes with it because the lings will be neutralized, but you'll never be able to push out with that composition. You need storm, collosi, archons or enough stalkers to beat the mutas AND enough zealots to beat the lings. P needs a much larger force to beat muta-ling if they don't have good AoE damage. Zealot/Sentry/Phoenix destroys muta/ling. The problem with HT/colossi is they come out too late; muta/ling will already have harassed you to do death and/or contained you enough where they have complete map control and outmacro you. That's really the issue with muta/ling, if you're on a gateway only army it forces you to make stalkers, which in turn get destroyed by lings (similar to the marine/banshee/raven builds, where the banshees forces stalkers only to get owned by the marines and raven). Certainly you can make a mix of gateway armies to beat muta/ling in a straight confrontation but then they can just contain you with the mobility of their army. The only option left is to be the aggressor and push his base and force him to defend with his army, which is of course completely viable, but pretty all-in. That's why I am a fan of phoenix (unless you are going for a timing push) vs mutas as it stops harass, prevents them from gaining complete map control and allows you to harass as well while you tech. You are in driver's seat. The problem with phoenix is you (sort of) have to blind tech and if they quick tech hydras you're probably going to have to cannon up a bit, but at least you still can harass somewhat. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On November 09 2010 05:16 kcdc wrote: I've played with phoenixes quite a bit, and I feel like opening phoenixes to deal with muta is too much of a tightrope act. As soon as the spire finishes, Z will put ~8 mutas on the field, while P can only make phoenixes 1 at a time (2 if you have 2 stargates), so P needs to get the stargate blind and really early. It's very difficult to open phoenixes and take a reasonably timed expansion that would be safe against hydras/roaches. And if you're lucky enough to blindly open phoenix and have Z go spire, you need to get a second stargate and constantly chrono out phoenixes from both stargates in order to compete for air control. Meanwhile, Z can stop muta production at any time, take as many bases as they want, and defend with roaches/spore crawlers/queens and you can't do shit about it because you're chronoing out units that can't shoot ground. I think P can win air control if they really commit to it, but P has to invest too heavily, and Z's production mechanic allows Z to punish the over-investment with a quick, nearly free tech switch. In order to match Z's tech switch to roaches, P needs to abandon use of his 2 stargates, build 2 robos and a support bay, and research collosus range. Uhh I don't have this experience at all. Phoenix play for me absolutely murders muta and is by far the best way to counter it. Blind phoenix play is pretty good at large maps, where hydra pushes are practically not an issue, as just by harass they tend to pay themselves back anyway even if Z doesn't go spire at all (which is very likely they will on big maps). Sure you won't ever be able to make as many phoenix as he makes muta's or even sufficient phoenix to directly counter the muta with them but you don't need to. The phoenix are only needed to defend the muta harass and to counterharass at the same time. As soon as I see a spire and don't have a stargate yet i just put down 2 stargates and pump non-stop phoenix along with a stalker/sentry/zeal army. If he really keeps making muta i just defend, harass a bit with phoenix and get blink stalkers, 2-0 attack, 1-0 on phoenix and a load of stalkers/zealots in addition to the phoenix. Just attack when 2-0 ground attack finishes and you will steamroll over muta/ling. If he switches to roach you simply add 2 robo's, get some immortals and tech to templar at the same time. It's not smart to go colossi against a player who opened spire imo as they will have the counter available already. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On November 09 2010 05:16 kcdc wrote: I've played with phoenixes quite a bit, and I feel like opening phoenixes to deal with muta is too much of a tightrope act. As soon as the spire finishes, Z will put ~8 mutas on the field, while P can only make phoenixes 1 at a time (2 if you have 2 stargates), so P needs to get the stargate blind and really early. It's very difficult to open phoenixes and take a reasonably timed expansion that would be safe against hydras/roaches. And if you're lucky enough to blindly open phoenix and have Z go spire, you need to get a second stargate and constantly chrono out phoenixes from both stargates in order to compete for air control. Meanwhile, Z can stop muta production at any time, take as many bases as they want, and defend with roaches/spore crawlers/queens and you can't do shit about it because you're chronoing out units that can't shoot ground. I think P can win air control if they really commit to it, but P has to invest too heavily, and Z's production mechanic allows Z to punish the over-investment with a quick, nearly free tech switch. In order to match Z's tech switch to roaches, P needs to abandon use of his 2 stargates, build 2 robos and a support bay, and research collosus range. I only open blind stargate (not completely blind since you should have a "feeling" that he'll be going mutas do to his army comp, early 4x gas, mass spines, etc.) when I FE myself. If I scout a spire with my first phoenix I then upgrade air weapons and pump more phoenix. When they hit with their initial 6-8 mutas I generally have 2-3 phoenixes with stalker/sentry support, which easily repels their mutas. The trick here is flank their mutas with the phoenixes (i.e. sandwich them b/w your stalkers and phoenix), which is very easy due to phoenix speed, to inflict as much muta losses as possible. The thing with phoenixes is you have to treat them as the support units they are, not to have so many that you overwhelm them. That's why I only make 1 stargate. They are simply there to deter harass (by forcing muta losses anytime they attempt to harass), and their ability to scout and harass themselves is just gravy. You pick when and where you engage the mutas as phoenix has the speed advantage over mutas. It's also why I laugh when zerg responds to phoenixes with corruptors because I then just mass a gateway army and run them over. On 1-base however I do agree you don't need phoenix. Detering harass isn't as much of an issue when you only have to defend 1 base, but if you're on 1 base you pretty much have to be very aggressive and keep them defending their own bases. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On November 09 2010 05:47 Markwerf wrote: It's not smart to go colossi against a player who opened spire imo as they will have the counter available already. I have often transitioned into colossi after phoenix and it's perfectly fine. In fact it's a way to extend the use out of your remaining phoenixes as now they have air units phoenixes can actually attack in battle (if you already killed their mutas of course). Corruptors beat phoenixes cost-for-cost (more of a soft counter than a hard one) but at that stage in the game it's likely that your phoenixes have already paid for themselves, so anything else is just gravy. Plus it forces them to actually micro their corruptors to target your colossi as phoenixes will be higher on the corruptors target priority, otherwise phoenixes will soak up corruptor damage. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 09 2010 05:47 Markwerf wrote: Uhh I don't have this experience at all. Phoenix play for me absolutely murders muta and is by far the best way to counter it. Blind phoenix play is pretty good at large maps, where hydra pushes are practically not an issue, as just by harass they tend to pay themselves back anyway even if Z doesn't go spire at all (which is very likely they will on big maps). Sure you won't ever be able to make as many phoenix as he makes muta's or even sufficient phoenix to directly counter the muta with them but you don't need to. The phoenix are only needed to defend the muta harass and to counterharass at the same time. As soon as I see a spire and don't have a stargate yet i just put down 2 stargates and pump non-stop phoenix along with a stalker/sentry/zeal army. If he really keeps making muta i just defend, harass a bit with phoenix and get blink stalkers, 2-0 attack, 1-0 on phoenix and a load of stalkers/zealots in addition to the phoenix. Just attack when 2-0 ground attack finishes and you will steamroll over muta/ling. If he switches to roach you simply add 2 robo's, get some immortals and tech to templar at the same time. It's not smart to go colossi against a player who opened spire imo as they will have the counter available already. Yes, phoenixes are good against mutas. The problem is that if you build enough to deal with mutas (even in a support role), you don't have enough of a ground army to punish a player that stops building mutas and mass expands with roaches/queens/spore crawlers. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On November 10 2010 02:52 kcdc wrote: Yes, phoenixes are good against mutas. The problem is that if you build enough to deal with mutas (even in a support role), you don't have enough of a ground army to punish a player that stops building mutas and mass expands with roaches/queens/spore crawlers. I'm not sure I follow. Phoenixes can be effective in detering muta harass even in small numbers, thus you've committed less resources compared to the zerg player who went mutas, thus your ground army will be larger. Overproducing phoenixes can and will hurt you, but that's why I mentioned it's best to use phoenixes in a support role rather than to mass for air dominance. Phoenixes are also incredibly effective scouts due to their speed so you should be able to easily spot expos and tech and before hydras pop unit compositions. Phoenixes (after FE) are a way to prevent the contain threat of mutas and to delay/stop the zerg's 3rd expo (since you're playing relatively passive after FE), a critical point in most PvZ's going past the mid-game. In 9 out of 10 games I transition out of Phoenixes very very quickly either into colossi or mass gateway. Like I said above if you're 1-basing until mid-game I don't recommend stargate openers either as the playstyle is completely different (i.e. very aggressive early and mid-game). | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
One stargate will never deter muta builds from a good zerg player. Two late stargates won't either (and even if it does, their fast tech switch is killer). Mutas will achieve critical mass much faster than you can build phoenixes that can deal with them. And again, this is assuming fungal growth isn't a factor. Right now, archons/temps do the best against mutas IME, but they're immobile (certainly compared to mutas), gas-intensive, slow to get, and significantly negated by good zerg micro (dodging storm, sniping HTs, magic box). | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 10 2010 03:53 Skyro wrote: I'm not sure I follow. Phoenixes can be effective in detering muta harass even in small numbers, thus you've committed less resources compared to the zerg player who went mutas, thus your ground army will be larger. Overproducing phoenixes can and will hurt you, but that's why I mentioned it's best to use phoenixes in a support role rather than to mass for air dominance. Phoenixes are also incredibly effective scouts due to their speed so you should be able to easily spot expos and tech and before hydras pop unit compositions. Phoenixes (after FE) are a way to prevent the contain threat of mutas and to delay/stop the zerg's 3rd expo (since you're playing relatively passive after FE), a critical point in most PvZ's going past the mid-game. In 9 out of 10 games I transition out of Phoenixes very very quickly either into colossi or mass gateway. Like I said above if you're 1-basing until mid-game I don't recommend stargate openers either as the playstyle is completely different (i.e. very aggressive early and mid-game). Let's say you blindly open phoenix and they go muta. You have ~2 phoenixes when their first 8 mutas pop. You continue chronoboosting out of one stargate, but soon, it's 20 mutas against 5 phoenixes. Your phoenixes are now useless against mutas because if they give chase, the mutas turn around and 1-shot a phoenix. Your mobility problems are worse than they would have been had you skipped the phoenixes for blink. Next time, you blindly open phoenixes and see he goes mutas, but you decide you need more phoenixes or you'll lose to mass muta again, so you build a second stargate. It gets to 12 mutas against 5 phoenix and you're feeling close to winning air control. Do you keep producing phoenixes? If you stop, you lose air control, but if you continue, you have no ground army or tech that will work against roach/hydra. Z already has a roach warren, so the tech switch would be free for him, but you're on gateways and 2 stargates. To deal with a roach/hydra force, you need to start 2 robos, a bay and collosus range from scratch. And when you get there, Z already has the tech for corruptors. Good luck. Phoenixes are good against mutas, but they're bad against every other Z unit, and phoenix harass is easily shut down by a queen and a spore crawler in each base. P needs major infrastructure investments to deal with other Zerg compositions while Z's tech switches will be nearly free. I think it's much better to shoot for blink+storm to defend mutas because it works nearly as well against pure mutas, but sets you up much better for the mid-to-late game. All you need is a robo and maybe a dark shrine and you've got everything you'll need in the late game. | ||
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Turnus
United States86 Posts
On November 10 2010 05:03 kcdc wrote: Let's say you blindly open phoenix and they go muta. You have ~2 phoenixes when their first 8 mutas pop. You continue chronoboosting out of one stargate, but soon, it's 20 mutas against 5 phoenixes. Your phoenixes are now useless against mutas because if they give chase, the mutas turn around and 1-shot a phoenix. Your mobility problems are worse than they would have been had you skipped the phoenixes for blink. Next time, you blindly open phoenixes and see he goes mutas, but you decide you need more phoenixes or you'll lose to mass muta again, so you build a second stargate. It gets to 12 mutas against 5 phoenix and you're feeling close to winning air control. Do you keep producing phoenixes? If you stop, you lose air control, but if you continue, you have no ground army or tech that will work against roach/hydra. Z already has a roach warren, so the tech switch would be free for him, but you're on gateways and 2 stargates. To deal with a roach/hydra force, you need to start 2 robos, a bay and collosus range from scratch. And when you get there, Z already has the tech for corruptors. Good luck. Phoenixes are good against mutas, but they're bad against every other Z unit, and phoenix harass is easily shut down by a queen and a spore crawler in each base. P needs major infrastructure investments to deal with other Zerg compositions while Z's tech switches will be nearly free. I think it's much better to shoot for blink+storm to defend mutas because it works nearly as well against pure mutas, but sets you up much better for the mid-to-late game. All you need is a robo and maybe a dark shrine and you've got everything you'll need in the late game. Agreed. If you do an initial push with upgraded zealot sentry, and slowly start adding stalkers, continuing to upgrade the ground army, you should be fine as long as your macro stays up to snuff. If the opponent goes more mutas, you go more stalkers and templar tech. If the opponent switches to hydra/roach, drop that robo and get colossi out. Either way, it is a fun, offensive, and reactive way to play. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On November 10 2010 05:03 kcdc wrote: Let's say you blindly open phoenix and they go muta. You have ~2 phoenixes when their first 8 mutas pop. You continue chronoboosting out of one stargate, but soon, it's 20 mutas against 5 phoenixes. Your phoenixes are now useless against mutas because if they give chase, the mutas turn around and 1-shot a phoenix. Your mobility problems are worse than they would have been had you skipped the phoenixes for blink. Next time, you blindly open phoenixes and see he goes mutas, but you decide you need more phoenixes or you'll lose to mass muta again, so you build a second stargate. It gets to 12 mutas against 5 phoenix and you're feeling close to winning air control. Do you keep producing phoenixes? If you stop, you lose air control, but if you continue, you have no ground army or tech that will work against roach/hydra. Z already has a roach warren, so the tech switch would be free for him, but you're on gateways and 2 stargates. To deal with a roach/hydra force, you need to start 2 robos, a bay and collosus range from scratch. And when you get there, Z already has the tech for corruptors. Good luck. Phoenixes are good against mutas, but they're bad against every other Z unit, and phoenix harass is easily shut down by a queen and a spore crawler in each base. P needs major infrastructure investments to deal with other Zerg compositions while Z's tech switches will be nearly free. I think it's much better to shoot for blink+storm to defend mutas because it works nearly as well against pure mutas, but sets you up much better for the mid-to-late game. All you need is a robo and maybe a dark shrine and you've got everything you'll need in the late game. Are you theorycrafting or is this what you actually experience? I ask because you seem to be throwing out some really weird situations here. They can make 12 additional mutas before I make 3 phoenixes? And if they have a roach warren/roaches, that just means mutas are even more delayed. And you seem to believe I won't have enough resources off 2 bases to build a ground force when I'm only producing from 1 stargate? Then you mention roach/hydra when hydras will be delayed significantly from muta production? These scenarios just don't play out that way you describe if you use game sense and scout (at least in my experience). And again you don't make phoenixes for air control. They are support for your stalkers, they are like a quick response team to muta harass. You don't chase mutas unless you know you can come out ahead. It's entirely up to you when and if you chase down mutas. Like I stated above you flank the mutas retreat path as they retreat from your stalkers. If they stop to fight, they take even more damage from the chasing stalkers. How it plays out for me is if they go mutas I almost always end up ahead. If my game sense was off and they teched straight to hydras then zerg has the upperhand (but not insurmountable). How it works is like this, when the mutas come to harass, you are able to inflict more muta losses from your phoenixes than just defending with stalkers. This deters zerg 9/10 times and they attempt a tech switch to hydras. I throw down my robo very soon after my stargate, if only for the observer to eventually kill creep tumors and monitor their unit comp, thus if I scout the den going down the bay is going up (only time I don't really throw down the robo is if there's early roach aggression, meaning delayed hydras so I then opt for mass gateway push or mass blink stalkers). As far as the corruptors being available, like I said in the post above corruptors isn't a big deal at all. Their ground army will be pitiful due to going mutas/corruptors/hydras you won't even need that many colossi during your timing push if they make a lot of corruptors. Theorycrafting it sounds bad that OMG he has corruptors waiting. In reality it doesn't play out that way. And the 1/10 times they actually continue making mutas (or make corruptors to obtain "air dominance") I just push with mass gateway. There is a certain timing window here where you should be able to push with ground army and if they try to harass you should be able to either hold it off with phoenixes + 1 round of warp-ins (I usually ~8 gates) or at least do very significant damage to his muta army. Either way it's a base trade he won't win, and he is forced to defend, which will also cause him to most likely lose as well. edit: And I'm not a fan of storm vs Z, unless it's late game after you already have colossi. Upgraded roaches with burrow/claws causes lots of problems. Blink stalkers are definitely an option to stop mutas harass, but I hope you realize allows the zerg to contain you easier compare to phoenix + stalker. | ||
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Proto_Protoss
United States495 Posts
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Turnus
United States86 Posts
On November 10 2010 05:42 Proto_Protoss wrote: So far the best opening i have against zerg is Zealot/Sentry with a quick +1 upgrade. then alowly add more Stalkers. But this is easily beaten if the Zerg goes just Roaches before my first wave hits in which case im down for the count already :/ Just don't lose to many in the engagement, use FFs to retreat, and start adding higher tech or more upgrades. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 10 2010 05:40 Skyro wrote: Are you theorycrafting or is this what you actually experience? I ask because you seem to be throwing out some really weird situations here. They can make 12 additional mutas before I make 3 phoenixes? And if they have a roach warren/roaches, that just means mutas are even more delayed. And you seem to believe I won't have enough resources off 2 bases to build a ground force when I'm only producing from 1 stargate? Then you mention roach/hydra when hydras will be delayed significantly from muta production? These scenarios just don't play out that way you describe if you use game sense and scout (at least in my experience). And again you don't make phoenixes for air control. They are support for your stalkers, they are like a quick response team to muta harass. You don't chase mutas unless you know you can come out ahead. It's entirely up to you when and if you chase down mutas. Like I stated above you flank the mutas retreat path as they retreat from your stalkers. If they stop to fight, they take even more damage from the chasing stalkers. How it plays out for me is if they go mutas I almost always end up ahead. If my game sense was off and they teched straight to hydras then zerg has the upperhand (but not insurmountable). How it works is like this, when the mutas come to harass, you are able to inflict more muta losses from your phoenixes than just defending with stalkers. This deters zerg 9/10 times and they attempt a tech switch to hydras. I throw down my robo very soon after my stargate, if only for the observer to eventually kill creep tumors and monitor their unit comp, thus if I scout the den going down the bay is going up (only time I don't really throw down the robo is if there's early roach aggression, meaning delayed hydras so I then opt for mass gateway push or mass blink stalkers). As far as the corruptors being available, like I said in the post above corruptors isn't a big deal at all. Their ground army will be pitiful due to going mutas/corruptors/hydras you won't even need that many colossi during your timing push if they make a lot of corruptors. Theorycrafting it sounds bad that OMG he has corruptors waiting. In reality it doesn't play out that way. And the 1/10 times they actually continue making mutas (or make corruptors to obtain "air dominance") I just push with mass gateway. There is a certain timing window here where you should be able to push with ground army and if they try to harass you should be able to either hold it off with phoenixes + 1 round of warp-ins (I usually ~8 gates) or at least do very significant damage to his muta army. Either way it's a base trade he won't win, and he is forced to defend, which will also cause him to most likely lose as well. edit: And I'm not a fan of storm vs Z, unless it's late game after you already have colossi. Upgraded roaches with burrow/claws causes lots of problems. Blink stalkers are definitely an option to stop mutas harass, but I hope you realize allows the zerg to contain you easier compare to phoenix + stalker. The problem with single stargate pheonix is that you're up against 3 hatch muta production. You can't make enough phoenixes to remotely contest the muta ball. You'll find yourself going phoenix+stalker w/o blink, and you won't be able to engage the mutas w/o your stalkers. Your immobility problem is worse than it would have been had you skipped the phoenixes and stuck to blink stalkers because you can only defend where the stalkers are. Single stargate phoenix is an invitation for Z to make nothing but mutas and expansions because you're contained the same way you would be w/o the phoenixes, and the stargate+phoenixes delays your tech to units that would allow you to apply pressure. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
Yes, phoenixes are good against mutas. The problem is that if you build enough to deal with mutas (even in a support role), you don't have enough of a ground army to punish a player that stops building mutas and mass expands with roaches/queens/spore crawlers. this. muta tech is considered very easy to transition out of it. It just is. Its easy to make you overcommit. Zerg can transition so fast and nullify alot of lategame techs at the snap of a finger. Templar is nullified by roach, collossus are dealt with easily with spire tech, and stargate struggles to hydra AND spire (corruptors). The protoss literally has no choice but to do terrible damage or apply insane pressure to stunt their trip to the late game. If you give zerg 8 minutes unadultered, its auto-loss | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 10 2010 09:16 Jayrod wrote: this. muta tech is considered very easy to transition out of it. It just is. Its easy to make you overcommit. Zerg can transition so fast and nullify alot of lategame techs at the snap of a finger. Templar is nullified by roach, collossus are dealt with easily with spire tech, and stargate struggles to hydra AND spire (corruptors). The protoss literally has no choice but to do terrible damage or apply insane pressure to stunt their trip to the late game. If you give zerg 8 minutes unadultered, its auto-loss Roaches are really weak in the later stages of the game because they eat up too much supply. If you have storm, stalkers and a few immortals, the only thing you have to worry about is brood lords. If there are brood lords on the field, you need to be careful to engage only where you can blink under them. I often end up playing PvZ as a competition to get to the 20 minute mark with a decent economy. If I've got a big army with storm and immortals and I'm even or down 1 base, I feel like I'll probably win. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On November 10 2010 07:39 kcdc wrote: The problem with single stargate pheonix is that you're up against 3 hatch muta production. You can't make enough phoenixes to remotely contest the muta ball. You'll find yourself going phoenix+stalker w/o blink, and you won't be able to engage the mutas w/o your stalkers. Your immobility problem is worse than it would have been had you skipped the phoenixes and stuck to blink stalkers because you can only defend where the stalkers are. Single stargate phoenix is an invitation for Z to make nothing but mutas and expansions because you're contained the same way you would be w/o the phoenixes, and the stargate+phoenixes delays your tech to units that would allow you to apply pressure. I'm not a zerg player, but can you even support 3 hatch muta off 2 base? Unless you mean 3 bases, but you will push out before a 3rd's economy really kicks in. I don't know how you can choose equal resource pure blink stalker over phoenix + stalker over defending muta harass. I don't even know how it's possible you can debate this. You split stalkers b/w your 2 bases, and your phoenixes are fast enough to respond to harass to either base. Phoenixes do more dps/cost to mutas, can shoot while moving, can respond to harass faster than pure blink stalker, and have the option to chase down mutas (if advantageous to you). Think of why blink even helps vs mutas in the first place. It causes more muta losses and allows for quicker respsonse time. Phoenixes are better at doing both those things. If the zerg continues to make mutas (again, it happens maybe 1/10 of the when after I completely shut down his initial muta harass), it essentially makes my timing push with my ground army that much more effective since one of the key strengths of mutas is to force stalker production, which is not efficient vs lings. With phoenixes you make less stalkers and more zealot/sentry and they will get completely overrun. You basically have the hardest counter to his unit comp possible at that point in the game. This all happens before the zerg's 3rd base's economy kicks in (if he even made a 3rd as often times when muta harass fails they know they do not have you contained enough to throw down a 3rd). Just to clarify, I'm not saying you open stargate vs zerg every game, because if he techs straight to hydra off a FE then it's not in your best interest to do so (though in that case you wouldn't go blink stalkers either, you'd just tech straight to colossi). I simply open stargate if I FE'ed myself AND I suspect muta play (i.e. if you're faced with roach aggression to break your FE, then I just counter that with 7-8 gate blink stalkers because you know mutas aren't coming anytime soon). The stargate opener allows you to both defend against muta harass and scout and harass yourself. If you suspect muta play and go TC for blink instead, that leaves you w/o an early scout and you are just as susceptible (or perhaps more so due to late scouting) to hydras. Stargate opener is conducive to a passive FE, build-your-death-ball-and-push-out type of play. If you're more of the smashmouth type player who 1-bases and puts constant pressure on the zerg and expos later on, by all means continue doing that as that is certainly viable. And this whole zerg tech switching thing is so blown out of proportion. If you wipe out (or do enough damage) his mutas with your phoenixes, your phoenixes have already paid for themselves. The rest (overlord sniping, drone harass, picking off stray units, whatever) is gravy. It doesn't matter if he doesn't make anymore mutas. That's why I said who cares if he has access to corruptors already for your colossi, it extends the useful life of your phoenixes even more. The only problem is if you overproduce phoenixes, which can be easily avoided. | ||
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
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