[D] TLO's tvz hellion opening/ "metal" strat - Page 2
Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Darthturtle
United States718 Posts
| ||
Moja
United States313 Posts
| ||
houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
I am a newb zerg (~1100 diamond) so I maybe out of line here. | ||
Beren
United States514 Posts
Its game one of course, english version. | ||
Beren
United States514 Posts
On September 11 2010 08:23 houseurmusic wrote: I feel that a heavy mineral hungry hatch first build maybe a good counter with well positioned spine and an extra queen at your natural with using your roach warren at your natural to help block hellion harass. The extra queen will allow for faster creep spread and way to block your ramp. This is all speculation since I havn't been up against this build. I feel if there is a way zerg can shut down the hellion harass with out the need of too many roaches they can most likely tech to mutas before for the first serious push. If terran does come out with a push before your mutas arrive you can spawn roaches while his army comes towards your base. I'm guessing that should be sufficient for stopping it. I am a newb zerg (~1100 diamond) so I maybe out of line here. did you watch the game? TLO would have blown his econ away and had thor's in time. EDIT: SORRY! Hatch first... thinking u meant 1 hatch. same issue, drones would have died at natural. it sounds good if somehow you know exactly what he was doing, i have a feeling the zerg didn't know to what extent he was going to use hellions. | ||
ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
| ||
Beren
United States514 Posts
On September 11 2010 08:44 YoiChiBow wrote: btw that zerg that palyed is an ex BW pro! he still played fantastic! omg yes he did, that was imo the best game so far? as far as edge of your seat who is going to win... if not close behind tester game 1? | ||
houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
On September 11 2010 08:44 Beren wrote: did you watch the game? TLO would have blown his econ away and had thor's in time. EDIT: SORRY! Hatch first... thinking u meant 1 hatch. same issue, drones would have died at natural. Well I guess don't have to put drones at your natural until you have the defense for it. 2 queens, a few well positioned roaches, and a well placed roach warren and spine may in fact (depending on the map) allow you to make a wall or set a trap for the hellions when they come in for the harass. Also remember that we are delaying gas allowing for more minerals to support these early structures and units. | ||
houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
On September 11 2010 08:44 Beren wrote:l. it sounds good if somehow you know exactly what he was doing, i have a feeling the zerg didn't know to what extent he was going to use hellions. You do know what he is doing if you scout. You will be able to see him pull off gas and get the fast factory. | ||
Zips
United States146 Posts
On September 11 2010 08:51 houseurmusic wrote: Well I guess don't have to put drones at your natural until you have the defense for it. 2 queens, a few well positioned roaches, and a well placed roach warren and spine may in fact (depending on the map) allow you to make a wall or set a trap for the hellions when they come in for the harass. Also remember that we are delaying gas allowing for more minerals to support these early structures and units. He did defend his base. The hellions didn't do anything against his econ at all, and this was with a FE. The real problem is stopping the terran economy. TLO had a FE up as well, except he also had map control with a mobile army of hellions, which pretty much forces a roach response -- but how could zerg have been any more proactive about harassing TLO, and stopping his army? The roach play was very good, and he even took out a thor early game. There's just not much else he could have done, except MAYBE go a little lighter on roach and somehow magically rush out 8 broodlords, even though terrans econ was better the entire game. | ||
kataa
United Kingdom384 Posts
On September 11 2010 08:01 Zips wrote: So how do you counter this build, anyways? In the commentary, tastetosis mentioned that he trained for this match with Idra, and idra said "his best chances for beating this seems to be roaches." But as Idra has also said "there is no safe build against terran" even if you've got a chance of winning with that, it's just a chance. I think to lose with that build you'd have be severely out played by your opponant, but when that guy is TLO that's really living on a prayer. Is roach probably the best solution? yeah, but you're still going to lose most of the time anyways due to this builds awesomeness, and the total lack of diverse reponses zerg can provide, allows other races to tailor their builds perfectly to these limited options. Something which is going to sting alot more as time progresses. | ||
Cytokinesis
Canada330 Posts
Also I think if he would have rushed to mutas while defending the hellions, even getting 6 or 7 out would have done a TON of damage to TLO. | ||
Grebliv
Iceland800 Posts
| ||
BumsenDK
Denmark137 Posts
On September 11 2010 06:53 ccdnl wrote: i understand what you're trying to get at but I feel the same way as Edso, if zerg sets up some key spinecrawlers and manage with minimum amount of roaches, in order to save up to get mutas, that build would have been harassed so badly by mutas. Note that his Thors came out Pretty god damn late. In TLO'S match I was on my seat the whole time because if zerg used his mobility/drops to his advantaged and didnt suicide his units the match would have been much closer. And if Terran turtles...Zerg can just expand. Thing is, TLO got his thors so late as he saw THAT many roaches, if he had seen fewer, he would have gotten thors out faster... and still be safe... | ||
geek0
Denmark32 Posts
| ||
Williowa
129 Posts
Now what if he kept his roach production on a similar upgrade level as the terran mech? Because if he is allowed to 2 base gas, he can easily save enough. However with the constant harassment, it'd be extremely difficult. So good job TLO. | ||
Lightspeed
130 Posts
| ||
teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On September 11 2010 09:32 Lightspeed wrote: Whenever I see Zerg losing to Terran, I usually feel that Infestors could've tipped the battles in favor of Zerg. Fungal Hellions -> They can't run away. NP 5 Thors -> You've just gained 3000/2000 army for the duration of the battle. I've gotten roflstomped by good Infestor play quite a few times. But then again, things might be different at this level of play and I don't really understand Zerg transitions anyway. You can't really do that because it was a mixture of thors and tanks from TLO, since he knew there weren't any mutas on the way. Tanks have 13 range... NP only 9. I feel like the only way to counter this strat is to outexpand the Terran and be aggressive like the Zerg was, while also making crawlers (or having roaches) at home to defend against hellion harass and rush for ultras/broods. And while rushing for Tier 3, make sure not to saturate the new expos in favor of massing out enough roaches to hold off the attack first (since any good Terran will timing attack right before hive finishes or shortly after). Once the Terran push is held off, start droning back up and pushing back w/tier 3 tech. So basically what the Z did vs TLO, except a bit faster tier 3. Either way, seems like a very hard strategy to beat. | ||
jdwashere
United States62 Posts
| ||
Lightspeed
130 Posts
On September 11 2010 09:33 teamsolid wrote: You can't really do that because it was a mixture of thors and tanks from TLO, since he knew there weren't any mutas on the way. Tanks have 13 range... NP only 9. Sure, but there were quite a few Roach on Hellion fights early on without any tanks in the vicinity where the number of Roaches would've been more than enough to kill the Hellions - If they just stood still. Also, Tanks have higher range than every other unit, so I don't necessarily get your point. Even if they get picked out by tanks reasonably fast, a couple of seconds of MC might be all that's needed given that large battles are usually over in a couple of seconds anyway. I'm probably missing something, if so please point out and make me a better Terran | ||
| ||