EPTHow to Improve: Mafia XXX Analysis - Page 3
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
I think the only time roleclaim really matters is when there's known rolecounts. If there can only be 1 DT in a game (or 2 and 1 is dead etc), you are getting lynched, and you claim DT, the mafia are either forced to counter or you are automatically confirmed innocent. In semi-opens like XXX, Youngminii just exploited the town's overemphasis on blues and managed to squeak away by claiming when that should have had no bearing on the lynch at all. Again, town just relies too much on blues and the mafia should be exploiting this a lot more by false claiming when in danger. Oh how I wish this happened more often. Even false claiming when not in danger can work wonders though since Townies tend to think along the lines of "If X was mafia then clearly this move doesn't benefit him/her, so they must be town!". I tend to argue it differently sometimes - If X is mafia, as long as the move gets them closer to winning or doesn't set them back they'll do it regardless. As a Towny you don't have as much information as Scum at certain points of the game so your evaluation of X's move is flawed. (I think this is also slightly fixed with players that start giving off lots of branching scenarios and hoping that once they die everyone else goes back to connect the pieces). I agree lying is walking on the tightrope. If it is misused it's disastrous, but at the same time if used skillfully, it does give you many more options normally unavailable. In that game I linked Bill Murray had a huge bandwagon on him for anti-town play (but not necessarily mafia play), and I wasn't certain of his alignment. So I made a provocative little pm which required me lying about my role to achieve the necessary effect/coverage, got my answer to his alignment + role, defended him and prevented an innocent lynch, and everyone lived happily ever after while suspecting me a bit, which is certainly better than lynching BM as it might have went. Lying in a PM is well, usually not that bad if it isn't something that can be confirmed. It's one person's word against another. Not only that but most people are not going to hold it against you that you lied privately to fish for information. I remember in particular a game on G9 where you were DT, MBH as GF, as the other mafia was claiming DT as well as you (only 1 DT max in the game). You checked the fake claimer, got mafia, then said in the thread that MBH was mafia via rolecheck. It was a huge lie but the correct move. One DT saying he checked the other DT and got mafia is kind of a 'duh' move which proves nothing. But by linking the association of MBH + fake DT and saying MBH is mafia from a check, that claim actually means something and you won the game singlehandedly. But the emphasis of that paragraph on lying was how you can't use Lynch all liars as an ironclad rule because townies will lie and they will screw up (like Pandain did). The action of lying in itself, which perhaps not ideal, will not always be done by mafia. As a broader rule, bad townie play=/mafia. I can't remember that game, and for some reason I think MBH did that to someone else. Either way if I did do that looking back that was a pretty bad play imo. I was probably in my infant stages of Mafia and didn't explain the connection to MBH + the fake claimer to the town. If we lynched MBH first and he flipped town imagine the disaster that would have followed  Lynch All Liars is a rule that should be followed except in really exceptional circumstances. You need it because like you said - bad townies =/= Scum. So how can you tell the difference if both are lying? If a townie gets caught blatantly lying which in most cases is something Scum would do then the town has to take a stance. Scum fake claim all the time in other forums. Imagine if the meta is ok, if you get caught in a lie we might lynch you but most of the time we'll take the claim at face value! - ??? Now the optimal play for Scum is to always lie - because it makes them look like town Once again, how do you sort them out? You can't Remember lying is scummy because once you're caught you have been found to have a hidden agenda and caused confusion. Scum will lie and lie often if the town lets a Lynch All Liars policy lynch die out. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Does TL Mafia even have a metagame? With all the constant player swapping and poor gameplay I'm not even sure if I can define what drives the typical style of play over here. | ||
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Pandain
United States12981 Posts
On September 01 2010 06:53 Ace wrote: Oh how I wish this happened more often. Even false claiming when not in danger can work wonders though since Townies tend to think along the lines of "If X was mafia then clearly this move doesn't benefit him/her, so they must be town!". I tend to argue it differently sometimes - If X is mafia, as long as the move gets them closer to winning or doesn't set them back they'll do it regardless. As a Towny you don't have as much information as Scum at certain points of the game so your evaluation of X's move is flawed. (I think this is also slightly fixed with players that start giving off lots of branching scenarios and hoping that once they die everyone else goes back to connect the pieces). Tell me about it, I'm trying to shy away from using too much "If X is mafia then why would he do this?" Its nearly used as confirmation nowadays. Heck, it is. Seriously one day I was going to plan on outright claiming "I'm rolecop", putting it off as a rash move, then ask for medics to protect me or something. Basically just get people to think "Hey, why would he do this? Therefore he must be this!" That's wifom, right? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On September 01 2010 06:21 Ver wrote: Ah sorry for the sarcasm and don't take it personally, I got pretty whimsical writing this as it times as it seemed to never end and it seemed I didn't take that part out. I didn't write this piece to insult people but I meant to forcefully challenge commonly held beliefs to get people to reflect and change them to improve the overall level of play. I also apologize to both you and Ver. I thought I had pointed out all of Ver's grumpiness to him, but I missed that one. Sorry! On September 01 2010 06:59 Ace wrote: This also begs the question: Does TL Mafia even have a metagame? With all the constant player swapping and poor gameplay I'm not even sure if I can define what drives the typical style of play over here. There used to be more metagame back when it was the same players in every game and every game had PMs. The player pool has changed pretty dramatically since those days and the metagame hasn't caught up. It will probably come back eventually. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
On September 01 2010 06:59 Ace wrote: This also begs the question: Does TL Mafia even have a metagame? With all the constant player swapping and poor gameplay I'm not even sure if I can define what drives the typical style of play over here. We should be glad that Chill doesn't frequent this forum. | ||
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On September 03 2010 11:56 bumatlarge wrote: New metagame for me: Keep myself alive via stories. Well the coolest thing about them is you are actually saying something useful too. It isn't like 0cz3c or Chezinu where the posts don't really mean anything other than maybe a way to get reads on players. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On September 03 2010 12:06 Qatol wrote: Well the coolest thing about them is you are actually saying something useful too. It isn't like 0cz3c or Chezinu where the posts don't really mean anything other than maybe a way to get reads on players. lol funny thing is he actually had good Scumdar at times. Even funnier was that LucasWoj is his twin brother and they are nothing alike. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
edit: for that matter, it was the only way I could actually get anything done in game. Now I suck even more than usual. | ||
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
On September 03 2010 12:25 Caller wrote: I miss PM wars. It was the only way I could manipulate Ver. edit: for that matter, it was the only way I could actually get anything done in game. Now I suck even more than usual. No...You somehow convinced a town to ignore you via insane detective busdriver claim. @______@ | ||
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SouthRawrea
Canada608 Posts
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
I generally prod a few people, but I don't get much off of it. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On November 03 2010 01:20 LSB wrote: Question, how should PMs be used by the town? I generally prod a few people, but I don't get much off of it. That depends on your style. I used to use PMs a lot to get my message across. I would have an idea come from several people at once in the thread. That makes it far more likely that it will get talked about. Another thing you can do is just talk about suspects with people. Try to figure out if they're prodding with an agenda. Think of PMs as just another way to get a feel for people, another piece of evidence. Finally, you can make circles and share knowledge. If done properly, this can be very powerful. If done improperly, Ace will rage at you. | ||
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
On November 03 2010 01:20 LSB wrote: Question, how should PMs be used by the town? I generally prod a few people, but I don't get much off of it. People like to use PMs for coordinating blue roles. While this is not inherently incorrect, it can be a serious error if you're not careful. Many blues screw town over this way its not funny. Claiming is ok if you know what you're doing, but most players don't have the ability to make proper judgments and claim to the right people (always think mafia are "most likely innocent" etc.). The most useful use for PMs that I can see is controlling the game atmosphere, circumventing a trashy thread, or simply circulating ideas. Like I said in the other thread, PMs are insanely powerful if you want to control the game as town. Like Qatol said, a nice way to bring the town under your control is by getting other people to say your ideas for you. All you have to do is PM them, discuss a bit, and have them post your ideas. Building a coalition of people who support your ideas is critical to influencing the rest of the town. Nobody wins the game alone. Even the best analysts need people to support their agenda. Recent games progress rapidly, and have a lot of posts, most of which are spam. One voice in a crowd is easily drowned out in the presence of mass spam, even if you are a big name like Ver/Qatol. You can use PMs to assert your influence by having your point of view expressed by multiple people. Its harder to ignore a group of people saying the same thing than if you have one person talking. People tend to also be less suspicious of your ideas if multiple people share them. In this way, you can bully people to your point of view, which is always good even if you're town. More control for you means less control for the mafia. And the better you are at analyzing, the more you can be suspicious of people following others' ideas since mafia will be afraid to associate with and be forced to vote for your candidate. Idea circles are powerful. Discussing suspects is one thing, discussing strategy is another. Generally in the early game talking casually about these types of subjects are a good way to get a feel for other people's position. Are they open? How active are they compared to their normal game? How much do they seem willing to contribute? Do they have some other hidden agenda as far as you can tell? Spam. Inactivity. Both of these atmospheres make mafia not inclined to talk. Mafia have no incentive to respond to pressure in thread if there is either spam or inactivity in the thread. And it is difficult to tell whether or not they are truly inactive, not caring, or mafia lurking. Here is another place where PMs come in handy. It is much more difficult to avoid a PM than pressure in thread. If nobody else is responding, why should scum respond when they would just stick out? If everyone is covering up the pressuring post, why go back and address it? In PMs its much different. In a PM, the pressured player does not have other information to tell them whether they should post or not post. When pressured in PM, you cannot know whether other people are responding or not. You do not have enough information to give you feedback as to whether or not responding would make you stick out. So its safer to respond than not, as a non-response is certainly going to lead to suspicion while (hopefully) responding to it may relieve the pressure. Gambits~ I'm not sure if I should share because it would likely lead to widespread abuse. Blue fishing as town~ Not sure if I should talk about that either. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
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