EPTHow to Improve: Mafia XXX Analysis - Page 6
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
^^ Also, man, reading this just makes me depressed about my scum play  | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
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Vain
Netherlands1115 Posts
On June 15 2011 11:09 flamewheel wrote: Actually a good majority of my posts are in LR threads. That explains alot | ||
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Xedat
Germany358 Posts
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On November 04 2010 16:49 Incognito wrote: Ah finally. Thread revived. Its been a while since this was written. And at the time, Ver told me he was going to write a more comprehensive guide later. *cough* If any one point was the most crucial at this point, I think it would be day 1. We need a day 1 guide. A guide on how to start the game, how to create content, and how to lead town on the right track. What to look for in post analysis, how to analyze the game's atmosphere. I would attempt my hand at writing such a guide, but I think I'm not qualified. Ver!!! So, I was just rereading through the thread (the discussion after the OP brings up some *really* interesting points, especially on lying and use of PM's) and this post really resonated with me. I feel like we need a guide, or at the very least some unbiased discussion on how to create a good day 1 atmosphere, I personally find that its the hardest part of day 1, finding stuff to talk about, especially without mayor elections and such. So far my day 1 starts have consisted of either 1.) coming up with a plan, which works in PM games, but doesn't seem to be very effective in regular setups deprived of such tools. or, more commonly 2.) Discussing lynching inactives. While this works, I feel like we are reaching the point were everyone has a canned response or just agrees, "yep, thats what we should do", so its quickly losing it efficiency. Some ideas I've seen from other people are 1.) Zodiac lists- My quibble with zodiac lists is that everyone ends up discussing old games or throwing up lists with no reasons, both of which don't actually serve to provide any real information. and 2.) Setup discussion, especially in SNMM 1-3. This I feel leads nowhere and allows mafia to blend in seamlessly. Sure its better than nothing, but only slightly better than nothing. So, what do people think of day 1 discussion? What should be talked about? How do we go about building a perfect town atmosphere that is conducive to finding mafia and confirming town? How do we make people discuss? I think that this is one of the major issues currently bringing down town play, so discussion on this topic would be very helpful. EDIT: I forgot one method I've used to spark discussion which was asking questions, as in experimental mafia II, but it was generally frowned upon as the questions were rather poor. And as usual these tend to default to players meta. I mean theres not that much I can discern from "what is your #1 scumtell?" | ||
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ilovejonn
Canada2548 Posts
For now I'm just going to go along with "sometimes if you have nothing to contribute, shutting up isn't a bad idea at all". Though I feel if everyone does this, games will be extremely boring. So time to repeat what GM asked, how do we get the ball rolling for a pro-town environment Day 1? | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6789 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Setup discussions are good. That is, until you have silly townies or scum that end up outting Town power roles. As town trying to find a way to break the game is a smart thing to do. There is no Day 1 guide though. What you do or talk about Day 1 depends on the setup, and most importantly depends on the ability of the people in the game. Even letting people randomly vote 4 hours up until deadline is going to be effective in some games (which I'll talk about in a second). Day 1 the typical town player goal is to A.) not get lynched B.) start looking at the people causing trouble and C.) keep the discussion going about who is scum and what is scummy Players accomplish these in different ways, but it is a solid way to catch the terrible scum players and eliminate the terrible townies. As I always say, players who tend to get lynched early a lot die like that for a reason - they are bad players. Now the problem with Day 1 besides the fact that half the town is doing ridiculous things like trying to convince Scum they are Scum - they aren't getting votes on people. Part of the problem with this is that majority of these games are using Deadline Lynch which at this point needs to just GO AWAY. Majority lynch rules should be standard from now on. When people are getting lynched with 3 votes then the Scum don't really need to worry about much, and the town is just offing everyone even though they can't agree on suspects. That's terrible. If players were forced to consolidate their opinions to get a lynch off then you'd see more interesting games. Get rid of Deadline lynch and things will start to improve. Even if it favors Mafia a bit, that won't be a problem if the Town thinks about what they are doing before reacting too fast. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
It's hard to make a day 1 guide because as Ace said, it really depends on the situation. You pretty much have some general principles (some of which i explained in this guide) you want to worth for and adapt depending on the game setup and what's going on. Strategies/setup discussion rocks if you have anyone smart in the game because it really helps isolate people and can provide some straight up value for the town. Like in PYPI Incognito basically helped show himself innocent by suggesting the ridiculously abusive vote rigger/mafia 2 dt plan, while in sleeper cell Ace's day 1 'plan' ended up getting him in some serious trouble while bum was alive. It's a situation where you can pick apart the genuine contributors and the sheepers, and if mafia do generally contribute, it forces them to be held accountable and keep to the same standard for the rest of the game. What I try to aim for day 1 is to stay in the background and set various subtle traps for people to force information out and get a clue to their alignment. If a trap pops mafia, then I gun for them like annul getting prodded and messing up in 37, but otherwise you can just quietly get info and try to stop the obvious dumb lynch. The problem is it's not easy to replicate nor do because you have to think up various stratagems every game and unique ones for different people. The other problem is that if you do individualized moves like this it's not always easy to convince people of your case because most townies are silly and can't see beyond the obvious. And sometimes if the town is really stupid and/or spammy they can screw up your ability to make these plans happen. I remember in mafia 8 I had an oddball trap using info from another forum to help illuminate the alignment of ace and mbh but I couldn't use that information at all because people would just think I was bs'ing, which led to a whole slew of problems and a minor catastrophe. Thus in the end, you are probably better off just trying to establish your innocence and getting some useful discussion going. In PM games I will focus more on chatting up people in pm's, just about their thoughts on the game, to give another avenue for information. If they are mafia they have to keep a congruent act in pm's and in the thread, which is exceptionally difficult. If they are town, getting that knowledge becomes even easier and once you know it you can gain helpers to push your agendas. What doesn't help whatsoever is posting innocent lists or focusing on too many people at once. That just makes things a lot worse. Similarly too much analysis is going to just cause problems (see mafia 39 and pypi). In general most players day 1 should simply be contributing what they honestly feel and trying to prove themselves innocent without going too crazy. And never do a point by point analysis lol. I definitely like majority lynch as a concept, particularly in irl play, but in practice I feel there are two problems that it comes with. If we could find a way to help fix those problems, maybe altering it slightly, we'd have an ideal system. 1) Time zone problems. It is nice that most of us are NA but it still hurts everyone outside of it. I remember there was a situation in mafia 28 where southrawrea screwed up and outted him and BC at the very start of the day. The town proceeded to lynch them both within 4 hours, gutting the mafia. If BC had been able to login during this time (had work i think), all he had to say was 'this idiot is lying and trying to get me killed with him because he knows he'll die' and he'd be safe. But BC logged in like 4 something hours after majority was reached; oh well gg. 2) Too easy to lurk/no accountability. "Oh I was busy I couldn't login in the last 20 hours and you already voted or changed votes, someone died, and you have no idea what I think because I wasn't here and don't have to do anything now." We already have a huge problem with lurkers and quasi-inactives and I don't want to make it worse. On any lynch that ends early a lot people are just going to sit around and it's harder to keep inactivity and lurking in check | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
Ideally just getting everyone to make a few posts is all you need, and if you're green you want to try to establish yourself as a threat to the mafia (just as Ace said). Even asking someone "what do you think of the current situation" and them responding "lol it's day 1 who cares?" can be very revealing about whose side they care about. I spend my day 1 making of list of who is pro-town, what they have done to indicate that they are pro-town, and who is anti-town and what they have said to irk me to feel that way. This allows me to narrow down the people I want to be focusing on in the future. If someone has clearly indicated they are town, I don't need to spend my time worrying about what they are doing/posting in the future (unless they cause a shitstorm). Sometimes the best way to find the mafia is by figuring out who's not mafia. | ||
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
On June 21 2011 10:13 Ver wrote: I definitely like majority lynch as a concept, particularly in irl play, but in practice I feel there are two problems that it comes with. If we could find a way to help fix those problems, maybe altering it slightly, we'd have an ideal system. 1) Time zone problems. It is nice that most of us are NA but it still hurts everyone outside of it. I remember there was a situation in mafia 28 where southrawrea screwed up and outted him and BC at the very start of the day. The town proceeded to lynch them both within 4 hours, gutting the mafia. If BC had been able to login during this time (had work i think), all he had to say was 'this idiot is lying and trying to get me killed with him because he knows he'll die' and he'd be safe. But BC logged in like 4 something hours after majority was reached; oh well gg. 2) Too easy to lurk/no accountability. "Oh I was busy I couldn't login in the last 20 hours and you already voted or changed votes, someone died, and you have no idea what I think because I wasn't here and don't have to do anything now." We already have a huge problem with lurkers and quasi-inactives and I don't want to make it worse. On any lynch that ends early a lot people are just going to sit around and it's harder to keep inactivity and lurking in check These two problems can be easily fixed. We use the majority lynch concept, but don't end the voting until the full 48 hours have passed. We won't have time zone problems because people will still be able to come back and influence things without fear of the day ending early. We won't have a lurking/accountability problem because everyone always has the opportunity to contribute since there won't be any downtime (days don't end early). | ||
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Emporio
United States3069 Posts
So.. this looks like something I maybe want to get into. I didn't see any like "THIS IS HOW YOU PLAY" topics around so I'm not sure how to do that. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On July 29 2011 09:51 Emporio wrote: Wow. It's like an entire section of TL I never knew about 0_0 So.. this looks like something I maybe want to get into. I didn't see any like "THIS IS HOW YOU PLAY" topics around so I'm not sure how to do that. I recommend the Central Library thread. Multiple guides on playing are linked there. | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On June 22 2011 10:43 Incognito wrote: These two problems can be easily fixed. We use the majority lynch concept, but don't end the voting until the full 48 hours have passed. We won't have time zone problems because people will still be able to come back and influence things without fear of the day ending early. We won't have a lurking/accountability problem because everyone always has the opportunity to contribute since there won't be any downtime (days don't end early). If anyone wants to see this in action I tried it in SNMMV, I think I'll keep on using it, its interesting, and it seems to generate some activity | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22634 Posts
On July 29 2011 09:51 Emporio wrote: Wow. It's like an entire section of TL I never knew about 0_0 So.. this looks like something I maybe want to get into. I didn't see any like "THIS IS HOW YOU PLAY" topics around so I'm not sure how to do that. Best way to learn is to simply dive into it and read all the guides available. Just make sure you have enough time for all this, this takes a ton of time. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On August 03 2011 08:26 Palmar wrote: Best way to learn is to simply dive into it and read all the guides available. Just make sure you have enough time for all this, this takes a ton of time. basically, learn what the roles do and start playing i advise playing the sc2 mafia UMS for an introduction before graduating to forum mafia | ||
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