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This is from my personal blog:
When I was younger my mother taught me a very important value, which was that it doesn't matter to God what religion I am - what matters is whether or not I'm a good person.
Little did I know what a radical, unacceptable doctrine this is to the millions of people in mainstream, Pentecostal Churches today who call themselves Christians.
For these Christians, Christianity is about declaring one's acceptance of Jesus as their Lord and Savior (in much the same way as a soldier who swears allegiance to his King). In return, God will grant you eternal life. I'm sure you've all attended services where the pastor preaches that to suggest Christianity is ultimately about being good is not only misguided - it is, quite literally, a moral relativist trap set by the Devil to lure people into Hell. "It's not OK to just be a good person, you need to have a relationship with Jesus otherwise you cannot be forgiven for your sins". They rely on John 14:6.
I spoke to a youth pastor at a Baptist Church once regarding a sermon she had given about how it was our duty as Christians to go forth and spread the good news of the Gospel. Over the years I see that this is the ideology that drives much of Western evangelism today. I told her that my uncle had recently died of cancer, and questioned whether she truly believed that to not know God means that: "we will be separated from Him for all eternity" (i.e. where the fire does not burn out and the worm never dies). My uncle grew up in an Asian nation where the dominant religion was Buddhism, so never really had a 'fair' chance to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior during his lifetime. He worked as a bus driver and raised and looked after three beautiful children. Although I never saw him much, the too few times when I did were some of the happiest moments of my life. He was always smiling when he saw me, and he always did nice and selfless things for me - like for example when I was still young and ate meat he would give me his portion so I could have more even though it meant he didn't get any. I asked her: "Do you think that God might let him into Heaven because it wasn't his fault that he didn't know Him"? In fact, I would say that it was my fault for not preaching to him after I became a Christian in New Zealand.
She basically replied and said that unfortunately, what she said was the truth, and if he wasn't a Christian then yes he is in Hell. She then went on to say: "maybe this is God's way of telling you that you have to really start taking God seriously and go and preach to as many people as you can before they all die and go to Hell too".
And this is an e-mail I received from a youth leader here in Auckland recently:
"I'm sorry that you lost your uncle. I may very well lose my dad this year, then I will have some understanding of the emotions involved. As of yet I have not lost a close family member.
No-one, not you or anyone else, knows what transpired between your uncle and God during his life and before his death. However, if he didn't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, then yes, I would understand that he is eternally separated from God.
I write this with sadness, as a harsh fact, wishing it wasn't so. I would like to defy gravity and fly, more than this I would like to be able to ignore the doctrine of Hell, but I cannot.
You seem to be well versed, so you are no doubt familiar with the story told in Luke 16 about Lazarus - at the end of the story the rich man is told that God has given us the Law of Moses and of the Prophets, and if people won't be convinced that there is a God by them, then even if someone came back from the dead they wouldn't believe it. It says in Romans 1 that God reveals Himself to us through nature. As we are more and more able to see the smaller things in our world, and understand its makeup, we are astounded by His perfection. Some people see this and divine, others do not. The same could be said with our increasing understanding for the size and makeup of the vast universe.
Have you heard the quote: 'The most incomprehensible thing about our universe is that it is comprehensible'. My point is this, that I can't convince you of anything. You will make up your own mind and yes, I believe that God created us with the ability to make up our own minds.
Your uncle's death, although tragic, could be seen as an incentive to go out and preach to those who are still unsaved, as the good news is that Jesus Christ came to do what no religion can do, provide us a way to be right with God and in a relationship with Him. All we have to do is simply believe that He is the Son of God and the only way to the Father".
Ha.
So, what is Christianity then? Is this truly the kind of God that you would want to believe in? And if not, but because it's true, is such a truth really worthy of our awe and praise, at the expense of everything our emotions tell us to feel (which we must suppress as our own lack of understanding towards His great mysteries)?
As I grew older and matured, I found that thinking back to the values my mother used to teach me, they started to make more and more sense. Christianity will never be as black and white as simply giving your life to Jesus Christ and accepting that He died for our sins. I found that the more fundamentalist the Christians were that I met, the more unChristian and prejudicial their worldviews and values were. And I guess in a way I understand why these Christians don't empathise (saying: "I'm sorry for your loss... But isn't God amazing") - it's because they will probably never have to experience the death of a non-Christian whom they love very much - the majority of their family and friends will be from Church, and thus they are unable to see how insensitive and how incredibly unjust it is to lose someone like that. But to any non-Christian - to suggest that someone close to you was in Hell is something they would never accept as God knowing best and the fact that we think that it is unfair is beyond our own understanding - such a Creator would just be seen as plainly sadistic and cruel. When you lose someone forever, it's a huge thing and you can't brush it off by saying: "but this is a reason to preach all the more", or: "God's plans are even better and He'll replace the one you've lost like He did for Job, despite the fact that the one you've lost is now suffering in torment for all eternity".
When I remember my uncle these days, I have memories of all the goodness that was in him, and I see the values of Jesus in him, so much more than I do in a lot of Christians today. And I realise that being a Christian is about accepting that you're a sinner, so are not perfect. But if that's the case - why do Christians put forward the argument that the solution is a perfect one? That all are sinners - but the ones who receive God's forgiveness by acknowledging Him will be saved, but those who don't won't. To say that everyone has had an equal opportunity during this lifetime to turn to God is in my opinion prideful and ignorant of the circumstances that cause people to turn away.
And then I read books like What's So Amazing About Grace by Phillip Yancey, and Stealing Jesus by Bruce Bawer, and Grand Theft Jesus by Robert McElvaine. And I realise that all the faith that new Christians (through their Alpha courses) are subscribing to today. It's not a real faith - it is a genuine faith - but more reflective of the genuine faith that the Pharisees had in believing that they had it right with God and that anyone who didn't believe in God the way they believed in God was wrong. I have absolutely no doubt that these people are people with good intentions and want to have good hearts, much like some of the Christians I know now, but when it comes down to it they have no problem in saying that they believe in a God that would send people to Hell, rather than admitting that such a God is not one that should be worshipped and respected.
In 2006 one of my friends told me that she was reading a book by John Shelby Spong about liberal values, and in it he discusses universal salvation. Before Jesus died he cried out: "Father, forgive [my persecutors], for they know not what they do". And then when little children were coming to Him, He said to His disciples: "The Kingdom of Heaven belongs to [ignorant] children such as these". In a way these verses could be interpreted to show that it's not important if you don't know anything about Jesus, or if you reject Him because you weren't blessed with the right upbringing to have that sort of understanding. At the time I recall saying to her that liberal Christianity is just Christians who want to try and water down the Bible to appease the non-Christians. But the more I looked into it, the more I found myself seeing that these people actually knew the Bible much better than all the fundamentalist Christians I knew. I read books like Christianity Without God by Lloyd Geering, and all these other books such as What Does the Bible Really Say About Homosexuality, and you know, I've forgotten the names of those authors but it really made me see that what gets preached in fundamentalist Churches today - in terms of the theology - it's not the kind of faith I want to have in my life. But because so many people have so much invested in it, especially those in leadership positions, they're too close-minded to give liberal Christianity a chance. They'll only read books that strengthen their beliefs, but discard anything that's considered 'unBiblical' (much like myself in 2006).
I found this list and thought it gave a pretty good summary of the differences between fundamentalism and liberalism:
A fundamentalist Christian sees Jesus' death on the cross as a transaction by means of which Jesus paid for the sins of believers and won them eternal life. A liberal Christian sees it as a natural culmination of Jesus' ministry of love and selflessness.
A fundamentalist Christian believes that Jesus' chief purpose was to carry out that act of atonement. A liberal Christian believes that Jesus' chief purpose was to teach that God loves all people as parents love their children and that all humankind is one.
A fundamentalist Christian understands eternal life to mean a Heavenly reward after death for the 'true believers'. A liberal Christian more often understands it to denote a unity with God that exists outside the dimension of time and that can also be experienced in this life.
A fundamentalist Christian holds that God will accepted only 'the saved' and that they alone will enter into the glory of the Lord. A liberal Christian holds that God loves all human beings and that all are His children and there is no exclusivity whether here and now or in the thereafter.
A fundamentalist Christian sees Satan as a real creature, a tempter and deceiver from whom those who are part of Jesus' 'faith warriors' are defended by their faith but by whom atheists, members of other religions, and 'fake' Christians are deceived, and whose instruments they can become. A liberal Christian sees Satan as a metaphor for the potential for evil that exists in every person, Christian or otherwise, that must be recognised and resisted.
A fundamentalist Christian believes that individuals should be wary of trusting their own minds and their emotions, for these can be manipulated by Satan, and that questions and doubts are to be resisted as the work of atheistic moral relativists. A liberal Christian believes that the mind is a gift of God and that God wants us to think for ourselves, to follow our consciences and to ask questions.
A fundamentalist Christian sees the 'Truth' as something established in the Bible and known for sure by those who have accepted and are guided by 'the Holy Spirit'. A liberal Christian sees the truth as something known wholly only by God toward which the belief statements of religions can only attempt to point the way.
A fundamentalist Christian reads the Bible literally and considers it the ultimate source of 'Truth'. A liberal Christian insists that the Bible must be read critically, intelligently and with an understanding of its historical and cultural contexts.
Of course these are only generalisations, and many people's beliefs cross-over between fundamentalism and liberalism. However, I have found that the deeper you get into having a 'relationship with Christ', the more fundamentalist you become, and the more out of touch you are with the values of God that He places in those who don't believe in Him. And this, sadly, is how many pastors and youth leaders of Churches today, as well as their congregations, follow in Christ's footsteps.
  
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It's so nice not to have to worry about all this stuff ^_^
Glad you discovered something about your personal beliefs though
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I think you might get more interesting responses on a forum about religion. Most of TL I would say is agnostic or atheist, and doesn't really care about Christianity, nuts and so called 'rational/liberal' Christians alike.
Really, use the search function. Everything about religion has been said a million times.
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Really solid shit. I went through a very similar process with my own Christian background also starting from what I find a fundamental inconsistency...the ignorance of Jesus issue. But as you discovered its important to note that its some people/groups within Christians that seem misguided, not the religion as a whole.
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I'm irreligious. I don't treat the bible as any different than any other book/text/story...a well written text, but I find that there are too many holes in religion for me to believe in them - and this goes for all religions as well, not just Christianity.
gl with your religion, it seems you've done a lot of solid thinking on the subject - I don't dislike christians or religious people in general, just the crazies, and if you've discovered your personal beliefs thats good job on your part.
edit:
feel I should clarify, when I say I don't treat the bible as any different than any other book, I mean that I view it as another story - like the odyssey or iliad, I don't view it as "truth" by any means. I recognize its importance in shaping the world, of course, but that goes for many other religious texts as well
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so do you believe the Bible or not? if you do then the answer is pretty obvious (see John 3:16), otherwise there's no real Christianity to believe in as it is based on the Bible.
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People like you give me hope about the true nature of humanity. Growing up in a non-religious family (My dad's a Jew, my mom's Catholic, we grew up learning neither) I have difficulty relating to people of faith. But it's always interesting for me to see how people grow and change in positive ways. It's nice to see the acceptance of liberal Christianity from a person who once considered themselves a fundamentalist.
I could go on spending time attacking Christianity as stupid, a waste of time, and the reason we don't fly around in hover-cars like other Atheists, but I realize there are genually good people of faith.
Props.
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Thank you thank thank you. I thought I was the only person in the world that did not believe in all the bs that is racism and selective religion.
You know what racism is based on? The amount of melomine one has in their skin (thats the chemical that causes dark skin). And really, religion is there to help guide people to be good people. Now you would think that no wars would happen because EVERYONE should know this, but every war has had religion some what involved in it.
Even thought I am not christian, I have always been confused as to why there are so many churche sects... Are not all the churches devotees of God, and do they not all believe in Jesus?
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I really, really like this blog, a lot. I'm rating this blog a 5, this is easily the best post I have read on ANY forum in a very long time.
As someone who has recently been actively searching for his own faith and religious values, this post is something I relate to EXTREMELY heavily. A lot of thoughts on faith and Christianity have been weighing on me, and it is extremely interesting to see someone who is going through similar things.
I commend you for writing this. Religion as a topic itself is an extremely controversial issue, and for you to make such a long post and describe your experiences is something that almost moves me to tears.
Pardon the religious notion, but God bless you, man. You're awesome.
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I've learned in theology back in College (since I grew up and studied at a private Dominican school here in the Philippines) That they've already changed the "The only people that are saved there the Christians" to "Good people whether Christian, Buddhism ,etc are also saved from the fires of hell".
(Sorry, I can't remember the exact lines but its goes to something like that)
The Roman Church are already being open to new stuff and I don't understand why this "religious fascist" thinks that they are the only ones going to be saved.
Reality check to them, NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS WHAT IS AFTERLIFE! (its really so unimaginative that it's only hell and heaven lol
It's so funny that there are still people who think so 1700's.
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Nice read, good enough to motivate a response out of me.
I am non-religious, but there have been various very important people to me who are Christian. And they are able to recognize those who are innately good but do not affiliate themselves with any church.
In today's world, do Christians still truly believe in an ethereal manifestation of a supreme God being? I think only the fundamentalists and church priests might harbour such a strict view. Other forward thinkers, and even those outside parties like me, do appreciate the church for its positive, empathetic and supportive teachings. Except the restrictive connotations that it attaches to these values, that they are irrevocably linked to this God being, are troubling. And therein lies the problem. I think the status quo is changing slowly.
If there were only some way to separate the support, guidance, and community programs church's usually offer from the stifling rules imposed by tradition. I am convinced that played a role in my recent failings. God is stealing my womenz.
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On August 13 2009 13:16 Shiverfish wrote:
In today's world, do Christians still truly believe in an ethereal manifestation of a supreme God being?
Yes, because such a belief is based purely on faith and not on evidence.
As it has been said before in other threads on TL and also the Internet, "you cannot prove that something does NOT exist."
Christians will believe in the existence of God no matter what happens, because it is a BELIEF, not a fact.
For example, I believe that all people are inherently good (a belief that not all Christians have), but I cannot prove that all people are inherently good, nor can I disprove my belief. I simply believe it.
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(to OP title) You can put it in a funny hat!
To contribute a little bit, I've always thought that it doesn't really matter what people believe in, as long as they don't consciously try to screw over other people. Live and let live, in my opinion anyways.
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On August 13 2009 13:16 Shiverfish wrote:
In today's world, do Christians still truly believe in an ethereal manifestation of a supreme God being? I think only the fundamentalists and church priests might harbour such a strict view. Other forward thinkers, and even those outside parties like me, do appreciate the church for its positive, empathetic and supportive teachings. Except the restrictive connotations that it attaches to these values, that they are irrevocably linked to this God being, are troubling. And therein lies the problem. I think the status quo is changing slowly.
Yes. Not true. Define "forward." Are all restrictions bad?
And do you actually know anything about change in the status quo, implying a shift in the collective beliefs of millions of people? Because the incredibly misguided opening of your post says otherwise.
Smells like a classic internet religion discussion...
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On August 13 2009 11:57 Sharp-eYe wrote:
Even thought I am not christian, I have always been confused as to why there are so many churche sects... Are not all the churches devotees of God, and do they not all believe in Jesus?
Exactly, isn't it sad that they don't realize it? I've always wondered, isn't it so obvious (as it says in the bible) that there should only be one church in each locality/city? But apparently many churches believe that they have the real truth and would rather stay in their sect than "compromise" the truth that they have by joining other churches.
To the OP:
Romans 10:13 "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
And (if you believed that the words of the Bible were true) your mom's words fall short of the truth. In the beginning everyone knows that there were the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life. You can see that it doesn't matter that you don't choose evil, because you can still choose good. It's not about whether you do evil or your do good, it's about choosing the Tree of Life.
On August 13 2009 12:42 Licmyobelisk wrote:
Reality check to them, NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS WHAT IS AFTERLIFE! (its really so unimaginative that it's only hell and heaven lol
Actually, that's not true. If you were to look into the bible there is so, so much about what happens after Judgment. To say that it's just "heaven" and "hell" really is to trivialize it.
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I'm a christian and I'm gonna do my best to try and give you a good response.
Ok, after reading all that it seems that you lost ur uncle who meant a great deal to you and was a good person and you feel like him going to hell is undeserved. Undeserved becuz he had characteristics Jesus would have and also the unfair part being that he was in a place where buddhism was popular and didn't get the opportunity to truely get to know god. The pain of losing ur uncle and what could've happened to ur uncle led you to look into other sides of christianity or you've already done this before(liberal christianity). Hope I got everything right so far.
I want you to realize something. I can't remember at the top of my head what verse it is but I know somewhere in Romans it says that "Sin can't enter into heaven" or "the wages of sin is death." So basically before Jesus came, we were all sinner and we were all heading towards hell. Jesus came and now by believing and receiving him as our lord and savor you get to go to heaven. Like in the email you've gotten, there's no way for certain what transpired between ur uncle and god but what she was telling you was the honest and hard truth. I know losing ur uncle is hard but if he did not accept god as his lord and savior then he most likely went to hell. And this is not just for ur uncle, this is for ANYONE. There's probably millions of good people out there just like ur uncle that die without knowing Jesus. What that preacher wrote u in ur email was not just "shrug off ur uncle's death and move on" but more of a wake up call for u to go out and spread the message so that no one else in ur life shares the same fate. I can't even imagine what it would be like to lose someone who's good and cares so much about you(the most closest thing to ur uncle for me is my mom)but I can imagine the pain hurts alot.
But I do remember asking my pastor what happens to someone who NEVER had the gospel preached to them(like if they wre stranded on an island alone all their life as an extreme case)or what would happen to a mental person who doesn't have the capacity(? dunno how to say this without being rude)to make decisions upon themselves. And if I remember corrrectly he said something like god will judge those people separately? I dunno..just something I thought of cuz I was wondering about what happens to people who NEVER hear the message all their lives too.
But anyways dude what I do know is that if you do not recieve jesus as ur lord and savior you can't enter heaven. But I'm gonna repeat this one more time in that bascially sin can't enter heaven that's why people in the old testement had to sacrifice cattle, lamb and other stuff everytime they sinned or kids were stoned to death. But jesus came and he was the ultimate lamb to save all of mankind so sin can't enter heaven, but through jesus ur sins are erased and u can. I'm so sorry about ur uncle and I know I'm basically saying "he most likely went to hell" if he didn't receive jesus before he died and no matter how good u are it's not ur good works that gets u into heaven. But I really do sympathize with u in the fact that ur uncle never had a chance to really get to know god cuz of his buddhist surroundings and is a subject I wonder about as well as a christian. I honestly don't know what happens to mental people or people who's NEVER heard the message all their lives.
Yea, I know you probabaly knew all this hence why u even made this blog in the first place otherwise you would've just asked "what happened to my uncle." But you already know what happens to people who don't receive jesus and that's what u thought is unfair becuz he was someone important to u who never had a chance to hear the message. I really do feel for u and I hope you you learn from this terrrible tragedy and become a stronger christian. There's really nothing else for ur pastor or me or other christians to tell u becuz the truth is that if u didnt recieve jesus then u can't go to heaven. She can't say that becuz ur uncle was good and never got a chance to hear the truth might not go to hell. Anyways, I'm going to stop here as you probably got the point. I dont' know if this post is gonna make u resent christianity more for putting ur uncle into hell(IF he didn't receive jesus)or whether any of it helped u but I just wanted to put my input my thoughts as a fellow christian. But from ur post it seems u have a firm grasp of the beliefs in christianity but what ur struggling with now is the fact that ur loved one who was a good person could be suffering in hell and hard to accept(which I can understand but that's just how it works, you eitehr belive in jesus or u dont, he gave us a choice <-- which u alrdy knew). I hope ur not too mad..I wasn't trying to make this post "oh i think ur uncle went to hell" sorta thing, just wanted to lay out the hard facts of being a christian becuz ur situation is so tragic. Anyways I'm really going to stop here. Feel free to answer back if u want.
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I am Christian I respect everything.
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Good discussion which I believe is important. I used to be a 'fundamentalist' christian, however, to be honest certain questions which you are bringing up always gave me a somewhat uneasy feeling. I am not a liberal christian either, because I don't think one can interpret the bible in such a way that being a 'good person' will save you.
I have discovered a new type of christianity which really makes a lot of sense to me. It comes from the point of view of being saved through esoteric development, which means journeying into the depths of oneself and overcoming the flaws there. Jesus was the savior because he showed us how to do this. One does not necessarily need to be a christian to achieve this, it is simply one system. In fact, there are many ideas certain christians believe in which are traditionally eastern, such as reincarnation and karma.
I'm still learning about this subject, but it makes a lot of sense to me personally and explains a lot of things. Of course, no one book will have all the answers. One must continually seek them out and put them together. The bible itself is a living document and in the past, the it was part of a larger Tradition, a means not an end.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4549935/Gnosis-Book-I-Boris-Mouravieff-Exoteric-Cycle1
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17010177/gnosis-ii
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17010692/gnosis-iii
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Great blog, I guess I and my family are what you would call liberal Christians then. Glad to see you personally developing.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8540/jesusaxo.jpg)
