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FFXthebest
75 Posts
On February 16 2024 02:59 Mizenhauer wrote: Few articles have aged better than the one we did after he won Blizzcon Definitely especially the last couple of sentence “Things won’t go back to the old ways. Not when Serral is around” Koreans has been trying to catch up for 5-6 years now, but Serral is still overlapping them | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23068 Posts
On February 16 2024 10:31 Balnazza wrote: It just feels a bit odd, like we don't have a word for these kind of tournaments. IEM being a "World Championship" (or Global Championship) is basically just a relict from the start, when IEM was an actual circuit with finals at the end. I think they don't even call it IEM World Championship anymore? It is "just" IEM Katowice. Clearly though, there is a difference between Katowice and lets say ESL Winter. So calling Katowice "just another Premier" doesn't sound particular correct either. In the end, it comes down to preference. For me, THE World Championship is the Circuit-Finisher (be it BlizzCon, Katowice or soon the EWC). Katowice, Gamers8, WESG and what not are...uff, idk. Grand Slam Tournaments? Majors? Pseudo-WCs? Doesn't exactly roll of the tongue, does it? Nomenclature aside they’re on a tier above. Grand slam works as per tennis naming convention. Major, used in golf and snooker would work if major wasn’t already a designation below premiere. For some reason, they didn’t go with this precedent. Snooker has a ‘triple crown’ thing where the Masters, UK Championship and World Championship are on a tier above, and GOAT candidates are very much judged on how many of those they have. Which I think dovetails super well to SC2. It’s (historically) Blizzcon, Katowice and GSL, and just swap Gamers 8 for Katowice. Hell, the Masters is a top 16 ranked invitational and the Worlds are (within reason) open qualification, there’s almost a perfect map to historic SC2 structure. For some fucking reason someone decided that a Triple Crown in SC2 was winning tournaments in different continents of vastly different levels of competion so we can’t appropriate it. And I do yearn for more snooker/Starcraft synthesis but alas today is not that day. | ||
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rwala
258 Posts
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Waxangel
United States32934 Posts
On February 16 2024 01:26 Durnuu wrote: I think we should do a study on the IQ of the average Serral fan vs people that are more skeptical, because the amount of people that got baited by Yoshi has me flabbergasted. Really, the worst thing about Serral is the most toxic and most irrational portion of his fandom—don't worry, I don't mean you (or do I  ?) | ||
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Starcloud
135 Posts
On February 16 2024 15:08 Waxangel wrote: Really, the worst thing about Serral is the most toxic and most irrational portion of his fandom—don't worry, I don't mean you (or do I ?)Usually when you have to go into personal attacks instead of trying to focus on the topic itself, you are already lost. Also, isnt it kinda funny that Serral fans havent been bashing on Koreans on different topics or make baseless claims about balance issues or "he doesnt care this tournament"- excuses every time he loses ? They/We have been mostly defending against this kind of stuff for 6 years now. And still it doesnt seem to end. (this is not for you Wax, of course  ) | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6611 Posts
On February 15 2024 23:06 yezzir88 wrote: Still can't claim GOAT without a single Code S title. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3299 Posts
On February 15 2024 23:06 yezzir88 wrote: Still can't claim GOAT without a single Code S title. User was temp banned for this post. This ban is stupid, banned for having a wrong opinion?, could we debate instead?, or is this not the site for that? On February 16 2024 01:46 argonautdice wrote: Serral is undeniably GOAT 2018-2024 just by pure consistency winning at least 2 "competitive" Premier tournaments (aka beating at least two Koreans in tournament, offline if possible) per year for 6 years. Here's the data: 2018: GSL vs World > Innovation, Dark, Stats Blizzcon > sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, Stats HomeStory Cup > soO, Trap, Bunny x 2, Taeja, Innovation 2019: GSL vs World > TY, Trap, Classic HomeStory Cup > soO, Trap, Zest, Innovation 2020 (online only due to COVID): Dreamhack Summer > Innovation, TY, Cure, Trap Dreamhack Winter > Trap, Stats 2021 (online only due to COVID): Dreamhack Fall > Zoun, Trap x 2, Bunny NeXT Masters > Classic, Zest 2022: IEM Katowice > Dark, Ryung, Maru, Rogue HomeStory Cup > Ryung, Creator, soO TSL 9 (online/offline) > Solar, Gumiho, Maru 2023: ESL Summer > Dark, Classic, Gumiho Master's Coliseum (online) > Maru x 2, Gumiho, Dark, ByuN, Cure 2024 so far: Master's Coliseum (online) > Solar x 2, Maru, Cure, herO IEM Katowice > ByuN, Dark, Maru This is not including all the times Serral beat world-class foreigners like Reynor and Clem especially in the ESL Europe or region-locked Dreamhacks in 2018-2019. Another way to put it: Serral participated in 61 Premier tournaments from 2018 till now (~10 tournaments a year), and has only not made top 8 three times. He has 25 gold, 11 silver, 10 semifinal, and 12 quarterfinal finishes, so the chance of Serral winning a Premier tournament since 2018 on average is 41%, 59% to make it to the grand final, 75% to reach at least top 4, 95% to reach at least top 8. This is basically saying for at least 6 years now, when Serral enters a Premier tournament: - he's almost guaranteed to reach top 8 - once top 8, his chance to advance to top 4 is more than 3 in 4 - once top 4, his chance to advance to the grand final is about 4 in 5 - and once he's in the grand final, his chance to win it all is more than 2 in 3. Lastly, according to Aligulac, Serral's win rate against Koreans since 2018 is 69% in games and 79% in matches. If you narrow it down to just offline Bo3+, it's 68% in games and 78% in matches. This is an awesome write-up. What makes him so silly strong, is that you never have to worry, you just know that he will deliver. Never did I believe Maru had a chance, I didn't even buy into the narrative of the battle of the GOATs. Serral just wins and it was the same in Kr vs. The World and the Blizzcon when the competitiveness was even stronger. As for the removal of the World Championsship title that is so stupid. It was called IEM WCS before Blizzcon became it, it was the end of the IEM tournament year, just like DH: Winter is the end of DH, and Anaheim was the finals of the MLG series. | ||
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HolydaKing
21251 Posts
On February 16 2024 19:34 ejozl wrote: This ban is stupid, banned for having a wrong opinion?, could we debate instead?, or is this not the site for that? That the ban is temporary and in this thread is the surprising thing, i even reported the guy in the IEM thread because he was just balancing whining and basically shitting on Serra's achievement. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany981 Posts
On February 16 2024 19:34 ejozl wrote: This ban is stupid, banned for having a wrong opinion?, could we debate instead?, or is this not the site for that? Please look at his posting history. Then you will surely understand that the guy wasn't banned for "that post" but for literally everything else. | ||
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Gantz023
27 Posts
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argonautdice
Canada2704 Posts
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TornadoSteve
893 Posts
But please, those who compare him to Magnus Carlsen are completely out of their mind. The longevity, the gap between him and his closest rivals are more importantly, the fact that SC 2 is almost dead while chess is more alive than ever, with many youngsters trying to push him should be more than enough to convince you. | ||
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miau
16 Posts
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UnLarva
458 Posts
On February 17 2024 13:14 TornadoSteve wrote: Serral is the goat and its not even a debate. For many years, he has proven it and still doing so. But please, those who compare him to Magnus Carlsen are completely out of their mind. The longevity, the gap between him and his closest rivals are more importantly, the fact that SC 2 is almost dead while chess is more alive than ever, with many youngsters trying to push him should be more than enough to convince you. Similarities in a sociological aspects of how his peers and chess commentators, fans and writers talk about Magnus, comment and handle with him and how Serral's opponents and SC2 commentators talk about Serral is striking and immediately evident. Regardless of differences in overall levels of competition between the games, there are nothing "completely out of mind" in the assumption that Serral may enjoy from some kind 'Magnus Carlsen - effect' within SC2 scene relative to his peers. Already totally lost the count of how many times that is directly said or at least implied by mouths of his top level competition during various interviews over years. We can call it Serral -effect in SC2 context so nobody needs to get triggered by false straw man comparisons. Otherwise comparisons are hardly fitting, tho not necessarily in all aspects "completely out of mind". | ||
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TornadoSteve
893 Posts
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UnLarva
458 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23068 Posts
On February 17 2024 16:57 UnLarva wrote: Similarities in a sociological aspects of how his peers and chess commentators, fans and writers talk about Magnus, comment and handle with him and how Serral's opponents and SC2 commentators talk about Serral is striking and immediately evident. Regardless of differences in overall levels of competition between the games, there are nothing "completely out of mind" in the assumption that Serral may enjoy from some kind 'Magnus Carlsen - effect' within SC2 scene relative to his peers. Already totally lost the count of how many times that is directly said or at least implied by mouths of his top level competition during various interviews over years. We can call it Serral -effect in SC2 context so nobody needs to get triggered by false straw man comparisons. Otherwise comparisons are hardly fitting, tho not necessarily in all aspects "completely out of mind". It’s not really mentioned enough as a plus point in the Serral column, but basically all pros I’ve ever heard asked, foreign or Korean have Serral as the man to beat. Not feared perhaps, at least for some, but definitely the toughest opponent going. I mean these are his peers that are training with him, or they have to devise means to beat him if they’re drawn against him, they have to have some insight that counts for something. I mean it was just a bit of fun to make some content for breaks, but the player cards Katowice had made kind of put it into perspective. 99s in multiple categories, and a decent gap in terms of average rating to even monsters like Reynor. And the top pros will notice the little things, small optimisations or minor but impactful things that even regular GM level players won’t pick up on, never mind the rest of us plebs. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1760 Posts
On February 17 2024 23:18 WombaT wrote: It’s not really mentioned enough as a plus point in the Serral column, but basically all pros I’ve ever heard asked, foreign or Korean have Serral as the man to beat. Not feared perhaps, at least for some, but definitely the toughest opponent going. I mean these are his peers that are training with him, or they have to devise means to beat him if they’re drawn against him, they have to have some insight that counts for something. I mean it was just a bit of fun to make some content for breaks, but the player cards Katowice had made kind of put it into perspective. 99s in multiple categories, and a decent gap in terms of average rating to even monsters like Reynor. And the top pros will notice the little things, small optimisations or minor but impactful things that even regular GM level players won’t pick up on, never mind the rest of us plebs. I asked soO during WCS Austin in 2017 (an event in which Nerchio made the finals) who the best Zerg in the event was. soO said it was Serral without hesitation (despite the fact that Serral was eliminated in the Ro8). | ||
Poopi
France12738 Posts
On February 17 2024 23:30 Mizenhauer wrote: I asked soO during WCS Austin in 2017 (an event in which Nerchio made the finals) who the best Zerg in the event was. soO said it was Serral without hesitation (despite the fact that Serral was eliminated in the Ro8). Serral showed his strength super early in LotV during that famous nation wars game where INno lost countless scvs to his 1 ling | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23068 Posts
On February 17 2024 23:30 Mizenhauer wrote: I asked soO during WCS Austin in 2017 (an event in which Nerchio made the finals) who the best Zerg in the event was. soO said it was Serral without hesitation (despite the fact that Serral was eliminated in the Ro8). Man from the odd tidbit here and there I’ve seen in your posts, a ‘What soO told Mizenhauer over the years’ would be a fascinating blog posts. And luckily you don’t have any kind of big, controversial series that you’re currently working on! Pros definitely know way ahead of the curve who the most latently skillful players are when they’re coming up for sure. Whether they can convert that to ruthless tournament success a la Serral isn’t always guaranteed, but game recognises game as they say | ||
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