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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On October 25 2023 04:30 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 04:10 Sermokala wrote:
What's so crazy about it? Even the people who trust and believe isreal should support an independent investigation of the facts to support Israel's story.
Calling for a ceasefire isn't a bad thing and having multiple viewpoints is what a healthy democracy is all about.
Also consider the people in her district that voted her in, she and omar are not going anywhere. 1) Gaslighting with "both sides" regarding the hospital situation as if it is some unknowable situation. The hospital is still there. Its total dog shit for her to be saying this crap. 2) "Gaza ministry of health" gives the impression this info is coming from someone other than Hamas. She is being intentionally misleading by pretending Hamas is a legitimate, trustworthy source of information. They are the ones who killed 1300 and lied about a hospital. 3) "The US has misled the public before, so who knows" 4) "we need to protect civilian lives" while Hamas is literally instructing their inhabitants death is better than leaving the land. It is so remarkably skewed and gives an enormous amount of undue credit to Hamas as if we have any reason to trust a single thing they say. Hamas's stated goal right now is for 0 Jews to be alive anywhere in the world. Hamas is not advocating for peace or any form of coexistence with Israel. Tlaib is trying to protect Hamas by pretending a ceasefire is a real concept. Its not. Hamas has reiterated their goals numerous times and recently. This is pure disinformation and "bothsides" gaslighting.
I mean this is much further off the deep end than a fairly diplomatic call for independent verification of the facts. Most of this has no relation at all to her statement and is projecting a lot about what you think she's saying.
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On October 25 2023 04:35 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 04:30 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:10 Sermokala wrote:
What's so crazy about it? Even the people who trust and believe isreal should support an independent investigation of the facts to support Israel's story.
Calling for a ceasefire isn't a bad thing and having multiple viewpoints is what a healthy democracy is all about.
Also consider the people in her district that voted her in, she and omar are not going anywhere. 1) Gaslighting with "both sides" regarding the hospital situation as if it is some unknowable situation. The hospital is still there. Its total dog shit for her to be saying this crap. 2) "Gaza ministry of health" gives the impression this info is coming from someone other than Hamas. She is being intentionally misleading by pretending Hamas is a legitimate, trustworthy source of information. They are the ones who killed 1300 and lied about a hospital. 3) "The US has misled the public before, so who knows" 4) "we need to protect civilian lives" while Hamas is literally instructing their inhabitants death is better than leaving the land. It is so remarkably skewed and gives an enormous amount of undue credit to Hamas as if we have any reason to trust a single thing they say. Hamas's stated goal right now is for 0 Jews to be alive anywhere in the world. Hamas is not advocating for peace or any form of coexistence with Israel. Tlaib is trying to protect Hamas by pretending a ceasefire is a real concept. Its not. Hamas has reiterated their goals numerous times and recently. This is pure disinformation and "bothsides" gaslighting. I mean this is much further off the deep end than a fairly diplomatic call for independent verification of the facts. Most of this has no relation at all to her statement and is projecting a lot about what you think she's saying.
By indicating the facts are not plainly visible, she is spreading disinformation. The facts are clearly visible. It is not reasonable to pretend there is uncertainty regarding the hospital bombing.
Similarly, Hamas is not a valid source of reliable information.
Lastly, Hamas still intends to kill all Jews and has openly stated that recently
Which of these points is not true and/or up for debate?
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On October 25 2023 04:52 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 04:35 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2023 04:30 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:10 Sermokala wrote:
What's so crazy about it? Even the people who trust and believe isreal should support an independent investigation of the facts to support Israel's story.
Calling for a ceasefire isn't a bad thing and having multiple viewpoints is what a healthy democracy is all about.
Also consider the people in her district that voted her in, she and omar are not going anywhere. 1) Gaslighting with "both sides" regarding the hospital situation as if it is some unknowable situation. The hospital is still there. Its total dog shit for her to be saying this crap. 2) "Gaza ministry of health" gives the impression this info is coming from someone other than Hamas. She is being intentionally misleading by pretending Hamas is a legitimate, trustworthy source of information. They are the ones who killed 1300 and lied about a hospital. 3) "The US has misled the public before, so who knows" 4) "we need to protect civilian lives" while Hamas is literally instructing their inhabitants death is better than leaving the land. It is so remarkably skewed and gives an enormous amount of undue credit to Hamas as if we have any reason to trust a single thing they say. Hamas's stated goal right now is for 0 Jews to be alive anywhere in the world. Hamas is not advocating for peace or any form of coexistence with Israel. Tlaib is trying to protect Hamas by pretending a ceasefire is a real concept. Its not. Hamas has reiterated their goals numerous times and recently. This is pure disinformation and "bothsides" gaslighting. I mean this is much further off the deep end than a fairly diplomatic call for independent verification of the facts. Most of this has no relation at all to her statement and is projecting a lot about what you think she's saying. By indicating the facts are not plainly visible, she is spreading disinformation. The facts are clearly visible. It is not reasonable to pretend there is uncertainty regarding the hospital bombing. Similarly, Hamas is not a valid source of reliable information. Lastly, Hamas still intends to kill all Jews and has openly stated that recently Which of these points is not true and/or up for debate?
“Media outlets and third-party analysts have raised doubts about claims and evidence offered by both Israel and the Gaza Ministry of Health, and I agree with the United Nations that an independent investigation is necessary. I cannot uncritically accept Israel’s denials of responsibility as fact, especially in light of confirmation from the World Health Organization that Israel has bombed numerous medical facilities in Gaza and reports from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society of ongoing threats from the Israeli military to evacuate hospitals.
“Both the Israeli and United States governments have long, documented histories of misleading the public about wars and war crimes—like last year’s Israeli military assassination of Shireen Abu Akleh and the false claims of weapons of mass destruction that led our country into the Iraq War—and cannot clear themselves of responsibility without an independent international investigation. This debate should not distract us from the urgent need for a ceasefire to save innocent civilian lives.”
I keep reading this looking for the part where she claims that Hamas is a reliable source of information or that Hamas doesn't want to see all Jews dead.
I still can't find it.
edit: removed excessive sarcasm.
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On October 25 2023 04:58 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 04:52 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:35 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2023 04:30 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:10 Sermokala wrote:
What's so crazy about it? Even the people who trust and believe isreal should support an independent investigation of the facts to support Israel's story.
Calling for a ceasefire isn't a bad thing and having multiple viewpoints is what a healthy democracy is all about.
Also consider the people in her district that voted her in, she and omar are not going anywhere. 1) Gaslighting with "both sides" regarding the hospital situation as if it is some unknowable situation. The hospital is still there. Its total dog shit for her to be saying this crap. 2) "Gaza ministry of health" gives the impression this info is coming from someone other than Hamas. She is being intentionally misleading by pretending Hamas is a legitimate, trustworthy source of information. They are the ones who killed 1300 and lied about a hospital. 3) "The US has misled the public before, so who knows" 4) "we need to protect civilian lives" while Hamas is literally instructing their inhabitants death is better than leaving the land. It is so remarkably skewed and gives an enormous amount of undue credit to Hamas as if we have any reason to trust a single thing they say. Hamas's stated goal right now is for 0 Jews to be alive anywhere in the world. Hamas is not advocating for peace or any form of coexistence with Israel. Tlaib is trying to protect Hamas by pretending a ceasefire is a real concept. Its not. Hamas has reiterated their goals numerous times and recently. This is pure disinformation and "bothsides" gaslighting. I mean this is much further off the deep end than a fairly diplomatic call for independent verification of the facts. Most of this has no relation at all to her statement and is projecting a lot about what you think she's saying. By indicating the facts are not plainly visible, she is spreading disinformation. The facts are clearly visible. It is not reasonable to pretend there is uncertainty regarding the hospital bombing. Similarly, Hamas is not a valid source of reliable information. Lastly, Hamas still intends to kill all Jews and has openly stated that recently Which of these points is not true and/or up for debate? Show nested quote +“Media outlets and third-party analysts have raised doubts about claims and evidence offered by both Israel and the Gaza Ministry of Health, and I agree with the United Nations that an independent investigation is necessary. I cannot uncritically accept Israel’s denials of responsibility as fact, especially in light of confirmation from the World Health Organization that Israel has bombed numerous medical facilities in Gaza and reports from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society of ongoing threats from the Israeli military to evacuate hospitals.
“Both the Israeli and United States governments have long, documented histories of misleading the public about wars and war crimes—like last year’s Israeli military assassination of Shireen Abu Akleh and the false claims of weapons of mass destruction that led our country into the Iraq War—and cannot clear themselves of responsibility without an independent international investigation. This debate should not distract us from the urgent need for a ceasefire to save innocent civilian lives.”
I keep reading this looking for the part where she claims that Hamas is a reliable source of information or that Hamas doesn't want to see all Jews dead. I still can't find it. edit: removed excessive sarcasm.
“Gaza Ministry of Health” is a nonsense term that represents Hamas. Hamas is directly involved in the operations and messaging from “ Gaza Ministry of Health”.
This makes sense, since the hospital is still present. If Hamas was honest, the hospital would be destroyed.
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The Republican shit show in the House continues. Tom Emmer was nominated by the Republican caucus to run for speaker earlier today, and then about three hours later, he dropped out, presumably in large part because Trump gave him the thumbs down.
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Norway28440 Posts
I posted a link earlier that showed that in 2014, Hamas (The Gaza Ministry of Health) gave casualty numbers that were very close to the UN numbers. There was less than 10% mismatch between GMH and Israeli numbers, with UN numbers being slightly closer to those of GMH.
The hospital situation actually seems like an outlier, here. I can't see any prior instance of Hamas being credibly accused of fabricating or even significantly inflating their casualties. And Tlaib isn't even saying 'Hamas numbers are the correct ones', she's saying she wants an independent investigator rather than simply trusting Israel/the US, because she correctly asserts that both those countries have histories of misleading the public. Honestly I think everything she posted is entirely reasonable, even if I agree that it seems like the hospital bombing was actually a PIJ misfire that mostly destroyed a parking lot. The lesson from both this conflict and pretty much every other conflict is to 'wait and see before information is confirmed before you draw conclusions and ideally you want stuff confirmed by someone non-partial, which basically means the UN'.
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On October 25 2023 06:11 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 04:58 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 25 2023 04:52 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:35 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2023 04:30 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:10 Sermokala wrote:
What's so crazy about it? Even the people who trust and believe isreal should support an independent investigation of the facts to support Israel's story.
Calling for a ceasefire isn't a bad thing and having multiple viewpoints is what a healthy democracy is all about.
Also consider the people in her district that voted her in, she and omar are not going anywhere. 1) Gaslighting with "both sides" regarding the hospital situation as if it is some unknowable situation. The hospital is still there. Its total dog shit for her to be saying this crap. 2) "Gaza ministry of health" gives the impression this info is coming from someone other than Hamas. She is being intentionally misleading by pretending Hamas is a legitimate, trustworthy source of information. They are the ones who killed 1300 and lied about a hospital. 3) "The US has misled the public before, so who knows" 4) "we need to protect civilian lives" while Hamas is literally instructing their inhabitants death is better than leaving the land. It is so remarkably skewed and gives an enormous amount of undue credit to Hamas as if we have any reason to trust a single thing they say. Hamas's stated goal right now is for 0 Jews to be alive anywhere in the world. Hamas is not advocating for peace or any form of coexistence with Israel. Tlaib is trying to protect Hamas by pretending a ceasefire is a real concept. Its not. Hamas has reiterated their goals numerous times and recently. This is pure disinformation and "bothsides" gaslighting. I mean this is much further off the deep end than a fairly diplomatic call for independent verification of the facts. Most of this has no relation at all to her statement and is projecting a lot about what you think she's saying. By indicating the facts are not plainly visible, she is spreading disinformation. The facts are clearly visible. It is not reasonable to pretend there is uncertainty regarding the hospital bombing. Similarly, Hamas is not a valid source of reliable information. Lastly, Hamas still intends to kill all Jews and has openly stated that recently Which of these points is not true and/or up for debate? “Media outlets and third-party analysts have raised doubts about claims and evidence offered by both Israel and the Gaza Ministry of Health, and I agree with the United Nations that an independent investigation is necessary. I cannot uncritically accept Israel’s denials of responsibility as fact, especially in light of confirmation from the World Health Organization that Israel has bombed numerous medical facilities in Gaza and reports from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society of ongoing threats from the Israeli military to evacuate hospitals.
“Both the Israeli and United States governments have long, documented histories of misleading the public about wars and war crimes—like last year’s Israeli military assassination of Shireen Abu Akleh and the false claims of weapons of mass destruction that led our country into the Iraq War—and cannot clear themselves of responsibility without an independent international investigation. This debate should not distract us from the urgent need for a ceasefire to save innocent civilian lives.”
I keep reading this looking for the part where she claims that Hamas is a reliable source of information or that Hamas doesn't want to see all Jews dead. I still can't find it. edit: removed excessive sarcasm. “Gaza Ministry of Health” is a nonsense term that represents Hamas. Hamas is directly involved in the operations and messaging from “ Gaza Ministry of Health”. This makes sense, since the hospital is still present. If Hamas was honest, the hospital would be destroyed.
Yes, but she doesn't say "I trust the information of either Hamas or Gaza Ministry of Health", she says that doubt has been cast on what they said and therefore an independent investigation as the UN suggested would be the best thing, because Israel and the US hardly have a trustworthy track record in these matters, and frankly I agree.
On the very same day that Israel first denied the attack, they denied any suggestion of a humanitarian crisis in Gaza despite there being over a million displaced Palestinians. They aren't a trustworthy source of information on these things.
If I had to believe either Israel or Hamas, I'd probably be inclined to lean towards Israel, but we shouldn't have to. An independent investigation would in fact be the best thing.
Of course, if you believe that this suggestion is 'off the deep end', you are also saying the UN has gone off the deep end and we should all just trust Israel and the US.
That sets a bad precedent imo, since both the US administration and the Israeli government are proven liars when it comes to this conflict.
Having said that, in this specific case I think its probable that it was Hamas, but I wouldn't say someone has gone off the deep end for asking for an independent body to provide actual untainted and verifiable proof.
Back to the US politics of it, since this is the US politics thread, I think her statement was reasonable, diplomatic and realistic.
Over here we've got crowds of thousands of pro-Palestinians marching through the streets chanting "Jihad, Jihad", a 1350% rise in anti-Semitic attacks and local government members quitting because their national party have said reasonable stuff like "We back Israel but we insist they follow international law". That's off the deep end.
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On October 25 2023 06:22 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I posted a link earlier that showed that in 2014, Hamas (The Gaza Ministry of Health) gave casualty numbers that were very close to the UN numbers. There was less than 10% mismatch between GMH and Israeli numbers, with UN numbers being slightly closer to those of GMH.
Can you please point me towards this? I looked through a few pages and did not see it. I would like to read it and correct my impressions if they are incorrect.
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Norway28440 Posts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War
+ Show Spoiler +Gaza Health Ministry: 2,310 killed (70% civilians), 10,626 wounded
UN HRC: 2,251 killed (65% civilians)
Israel MFA: 2,125 killed (36% civilians, 44% combatants, 20% uncategorized males aged 16–50
It was in the palestine thread, I thought we were there for a second. xD
I'm seeing confirmed from other sources that the WHO has stated that 59 health care facilities in Gaza have been bombed (by Israel).
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On October 25 2023 06:29 Liquid`Drone wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War+ Show Spoiler +Gaza Health Ministry: 2,310 killed (70% civilians), 10,626 wounded
UN HRC: 2,251 killed (65% civilians)
Israel MFA: 2,125 killed (36% civilians, 44% combatants, 20% uncategorized males aged 16–50
It was in the palestine thread, I thought we were there for a second. xD I'm seeing confirmed from other sources that the WHO has stated that 59 health care facilities in Gaza have been bombed (by Israel).
The UN HRC cites the Gaza Health Ministry as the source of their information. That's not fixing the issue. The UN slapping their own sticker on it does not make it credible. I am asking for information that was gathered entirely independently from Hamas.
Since we already know Hamas uses hospitals and other sympathy-farming buildings for military operations, 59 health care facilities being bombed is reasonable. Are we saying so long as Israel launches their missiles from hospitals, it is above the belt and morally permissible? Which buildings are we saying rockets can be launched from such that the moral downsides are no longer present?
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On October 25 2023 06:11 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 04:58 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 25 2023 04:52 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:35 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2023 04:30 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:10 Sermokala wrote:
What's so crazy about it? Even the people who trust and believe isreal should support an independent investigation of the facts to support Israel's story.
Calling for a ceasefire isn't a bad thing and having multiple viewpoints is what a healthy democracy is all about.
Also consider the people in her district that voted her in, she and omar are not going anywhere. 1) Gaslighting with "both sides" regarding the hospital situation as if it is some unknowable situation. The hospital is still there. Its total dog shit for her to be saying this crap. 2) "Gaza ministry of health" gives the impression this info is coming from someone other than Hamas. She is being intentionally misleading by pretending Hamas is a legitimate, trustworthy source of information. They are the ones who killed 1300 and lied about a hospital. 3) "The US has misled the public before, so who knows" 4) "we need to protect civilian lives" while Hamas is literally instructing their inhabitants death is better than leaving the land. It is so remarkably skewed and gives an enormous amount of undue credit to Hamas as if we have any reason to trust a single thing they say. Hamas's stated goal right now is for 0 Jews to be alive anywhere in the world. Hamas is not advocating for peace or any form of coexistence with Israel. Tlaib is trying to protect Hamas by pretending a ceasefire is a real concept. Its not. Hamas has reiterated their goals numerous times and recently. This is pure disinformation and "bothsides" gaslighting. I mean this is much further off the deep end than a fairly diplomatic call for independent verification of the facts. Most of this has no relation at all to her statement and is projecting a lot about what you think she's saying. By indicating the facts are not plainly visible, she is spreading disinformation. The facts are clearly visible. It is not reasonable to pretend there is uncertainty regarding the hospital bombing. Similarly, Hamas is not a valid source of reliable information. Lastly, Hamas still intends to kill all Jews and has openly stated that recently Which of these points is not true and/or up for debate? “Media outlets and third-party analysts have raised doubts about claims and evidence offered by both Israel and the Gaza Ministry of Health, and I agree with the United Nations that an independent investigation is necessary. I cannot uncritically accept Israel’s denials of responsibility as fact, especially in light of confirmation from the World Health Organization that Israel has bombed numerous medical facilities in Gaza and reports from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society of ongoing threats from the Israeli military to evacuate hospitals.
“Both the Israeli and United States governments have long, documented histories of misleading the public about wars and war crimes—like last year’s Israeli military assassination of Shireen Abu Akleh and the false claims of weapons of mass destruction that led our country into the Iraq War—and cannot clear themselves of responsibility without an independent international investigation. This debate should not distract us from the urgent need for a ceasefire to save innocent civilian lives.”
I keep reading this looking for the part where she claims that Hamas is a reliable source of information or that Hamas doesn't want to see all Jews dead. I still can't find it. edit: removed excessive sarcasm. “Gaza Ministry of Health” is a nonsense term that represents Hamas. Hamas is directly involved in the operations and messaging from “ Gaza Ministry of Health”.
The statement says that doubt has been cast on evidence and claims provided by the Gaza Ministry of Health. In other words, the statement says that you should not trust their claims without independent verification. It seems like you think it says the opposite of what it actually says. It’s as though you read “I don’t take the IDF at face value” as “I take Hamas at face value,” even though she’s saying the exact opposite of “I take Hamas at face value.” Like Kwark said, you don’t have to trust the IDF or Hamas and you probably shouldn’t.
Edit: Also I don’t see the point of you wigging out about the numbers that Drone just posted when the Israel numbers and the Hamas numbers are nearly identical?
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On October 25 2023 06:50 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 06:11 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:58 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 25 2023 04:52 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:35 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2023 04:30 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:10 Sermokala wrote:
What's so crazy about it? Even the people who trust and believe isreal should support an independent investigation of the facts to support Israel's story.
Calling for a ceasefire isn't a bad thing and having multiple viewpoints is what a healthy democracy is all about.
Also consider the people in her district that voted her in, she and omar are not going anywhere. 1) Gaslighting with "both sides" regarding the hospital situation as if it is some unknowable situation. The hospital is still there. Its total dog shit for her to be saying this crap. 2) "Gaza ministry of health" gives the impression this info is coming from someone other than Hamas. She is being intentionally misleading by pretending Hamas is a legitimate, trustworthy source of information. They are the ones who killed 1300 and lied about a hospital. 3) "The US has misled the public before, so who knows" 4) "we need to protect civilian lives" while Hamas is literally instructing their inhabitants death is better than leaving the land. It is so remarkably skewed and gives an enormous amount of undue credit to Hamas as if we have any reason to trust a single thing they say. Hamas's stated goal right now is for 0 Jews to be alive anywhere in the world. Hamas is not advocating for peace or any form of coexistence with Israel. Tlaib is trying to protect Hamas by pretending a ceasefire is a real concept. Its not. Hamas has reiterated their goals numerous times and recently. This is pure disinformation and "bothsides" gaslighting. I mean this is much further off the deep end than a fairly diplomatic call for independent verification of the facts. Most of this has no relation at all to her statement and is projecting a lot about what you think she's saying. By indicating the facts are not plainly visible, she is spreading disinformation. The facts are clearly visible. It is not reasonable to pretend there is uncertainty regarding the hospital bombing. Similarly, Hamas is not a valid source of reliable information. Lastly, Hamas still intends to kill all Jews and has openly stated that recently Which of these points is not true and/or up for debate? “Media outlets and third-party analysts have raised doubts about claims and evidence offered by both Israel and the Gaza Ministry of Health, and I agree with the United Nations that an independent investigation is necessary. I cannot uncritically accept Israel’s denials of responsibility as fact, especially in light of confirmation from the World Health Organization that Israel has bombed numerous medical facilities in Gaza and reports from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society of ongoing threats from the Israeli military to evacuate hospitals.
“Both the Israeli and United States governments have long, documented histories of misleading the public about wars and war crimes—like last year’s Israeli military assassination of Shireen Abu Akleh and the false claims of weapons of mass destruction that led our country into the Iraq War—and cannot clear themselves of responsibility without an independent international investigation. This debate should not distract us from the urgent need for a ceasefire to save innocent civilian lives.”
I keep reading this looking for the part where she claims that Hamas is a reliable source of information or that Hamas doesn't want to see all Jews dead. I still can't find it. edit: removed excessive sarcasm. “Gaza Ministry of Health” is a nonsense term that represents Hamas. Hamas is directly involved in the operations and messaging from “ Gaza Ministry of Health”. The statement says that doubt has been cast on evidence and claims provided by the Gaza Ministry of Health. In other words, the statement says that you should not trust their claims without independent verification. It seems like you think it says the opposite of what it actually says. It’s as though you read “I don’t take the IDF at face value” as “I take Hamas at face value,” even though she’s saying the exact opposite of “I take Hamas at face value.” Like Kwark said, you don’t have to trust the IDF or Hamas and you probably shouldn’t.
So when you read her statement, do you come away with it with any differentiation between our ability to trust Hamas vs the US? Do you think they should be trusted equivalently?
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United States41383 Posts
To an extent it doesn’t actually matter. Israel would absolutely bomb a hospital. Hamas would absolutely hit a hospital and blame Israel. The specific party that did it this time changes absolutely nothing. They’re both already guilty of it many times over.
Imagine you’re in a room with two aggressive dogs, both of which have already given you pretty brutal bites. The lights go off and one of them savages you again.
When the lights come back on you’re not going to spend much time and effort working out exactly which of them it was.
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On October 25 2023 07:06 KwarK wrote:
To an extent it doesn’t actually matter. Israel would absolutely bomb a hospital. Hamas would absolutely hit a hospital and blame Israel. The specific party that did it this time changes absolutely nothing. They’re both already guilty of it many times over.
Imagine you’re in a room with two aggressive dogs, both of which have already given you pretty brutal bites. The lights go off and one of them savages you again.
When the lights come back on you’re not going to spend much time and effort working out exactly which of them it was.
Just to be clear, there are currently 2 groups saying 2 different things. Group together the folks saying the hospital was bombed by Israel and compare it to the group saying it was PIJ accidentally hitting the hospital. You are saying you have no reason to differentiate between those 2?
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On October 25 2023 06:53 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 06:50 Djabanete wrote:On October 25 2023 06:11 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:58 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 25 2023 04:52 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:35 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2023 04:30 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:10 Sermokala wrote:
What's so crazy about it? Even the people who trust and believe isreal should support an independent investigation of the facts to support Israel's story.
Calling for a ceasefire isn't a bad thing and having multiple viewpoints is what a healthy democracy is all about.
Also consider the people in her district that voted her in, she and omar are not going anywhere. 1) Gaslighting with "both sides" regarding the hospital situation as if it is some unknowable situation. The hospital is still there. Its total dog shit for her to be saying this crap. 2) "Gaza ministry of health" gives the impression this info is coming from someone other than Hamas. She is being intentionally misleading by pretending Hamas is a legitimate, trustworthy source of information. They are the ones who killed 1300 and lied about a hospital. 3) "The US has misled the public before, so who knows" 4) "we need to protect civilian lives" while Hamas is literally instructing their inhabitants death is better than leaving the land. It is so remarkably skewed and gives an enormous amount of undue credit to Hamas as if we have any reason to trust a single thing they say. Hamas's stated goal right now is for 0 Jews to be alive anywhere in the world. Hamas is not advocating for peace or any form of coexistence with Israel. Tlaib is trying to protect Hamas by pretending a ceasefire is a real concept. Its not. Hamas has reiterated their goals numerous times and recently. This is pure disinformation and "bothsides" gaslighting. I mean this is much further off the deep end than a fairly diplomatic call for independent verification of the facts. Most of this has no relation at all to her statement and is projecting a lot about what you think she's saying. By indicating the facts are not plainly visible, she is spreading disinformation. The facts are clearly visible. It is not reasonable to pretend there is uncertainty regarding the hospital bombing. Similarly, Hamas is not a valid source of reliable information. Lastly, Hamas still intends to kill all Jews and has openly stated that recently Which of these points is not true and/or up for debate? “Media outlets and third-party analysts have raised doubts about claims and evidence offered by both Israel and the Gaza Ministry of Health, and I agree with the United Nations that an independent investigation is necessary. I cannot uncritically accept Israel’s denials of responsibility as fact, especially in light of confirmation from the World Health Organization that Israel has bombed numerous medical facilities in Gaza and reports from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society of ongoing threats from the Israeli military to evacuate hospitals.
“Both the Israeli and United States governments have long, documented histories of misleading the public about wars and war crimes—like last year’s Israeli military assassination of Shireen Abu Akleh and the false claims of weapons of mass destruction that led our country into the Iraq War—and cannot clear themselves of responsibility without an independent international investigation. This debate should not distract us from the urgent need for a ceasefire to save innocent civilian lives.”
I keep reading this looking for the part where she claims that Hamas is a reliable source of information or that Hamas doesn't want to see all Jews dead. I still can't find it. edit: removed excessive sarcasm. “Gaza Ministry of Health” is a nonsense term that represents Hamas. Hamas is directly involved in the operations and messaging from “ Gaza Ministry of Health”. The statement says that doubt has been cast on evidence and claims provided by the Gaza Ministry of Health. In other words, the statement says that you should not trust their claims without independent verification. It seems like you think it says the opposite of what it actually says. It’s as though you read “I don’t take the IDF at face value” as “I take Hamas at face value,” even though she’s saying the exact opposite of “I take Hamas at face value.” Like Kwark said, you don’t have to trust the IDF or Hamas and you probably shouldn’t. So when you read her statement, do you come away with it with any differentiation between our ability to trust Hamas vs the US? Do you think they should be trusted equivalently?
I just thought it was weird that you implied that she said you should trust the Gaza Ministry of Health when she actually said you should not trust the Gaza Ministry of Health.
You may feel that she unfairly characterized the Biden Administration as untrustworthy by referencing the Bush Administration. If you’d said that, I wouldn’t have responded.
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On October 25 2023 06:21 farvacola wrote:
The Republican shit show in the House continues. Tom Emmer was nominated by the Republican caucus to run for speaker earlier today, and then about three hours later, he dropped out, presumably in large part because Trump gave him the thumbs down.
I didn't even get the news for him getting the nomination before I got the news he went into the 4pm meeting, said he was out, and then walked by the media with a smile on his face.
This is the most deeply unserious contest in a long time. Minnesota now holds the record for state with the representative having the shortest speaker nomination tenure. Dub for the state with republicans arn't crazy enough for republicans.
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Norway28440 Posts
If the question is 'how many palestinians were killed by israelian bombs' I'm honestly not inclined to trust Israel or the US before I trust the GMH. I'll trust the UN over either. And I think there's not really any immediate rush to get the correct number, if that takes a week I'm fine with that. I remember the first numbers after 9/11 were in the 10s of thousands, like 30-40k, eventually people realized it was a much much smaller number. People make some assumptions, sometimes they're wrong.
And like Djanbanete says, there's not much difference between Israeli numbers and GMH numbers. Also, clearly the UN didn't just take the GMH numbers at face value, considering how they made adjustments both regarding the casualties and what % was civilian.
I think this hospital strike is basically the first instance in any of these conflicts where there's real disagreement on casualties / who did it. There's typically difference in opinion on 'was this person a civilian or a Hamas fighter' - but not on how many people died. Again, as long as you give some independent party the ability to tally up the dead, getting a reasonably precise body count is entirely doable.
Tbh I think this link gives a really good overview of the events. Myself, there's a whole lot of stuff from the israeli side that I find immoral, there. The concluding paragraph about the hospital attack (where they mostly post evidence indicating that it seems to have been a failed rocket launch from Gaza - but where they also post that The New York Times pointed out inconsistencies in the version of events presented by both the Israeli military is:
Experts agree overwhelmingly that there can be no definitive conclusion until a thorough, independent investigation is conducted and forensic evidence from the site analyzed, which seems unlikely to happen anytime soon given the ongoing hostilities.
Again, I have the impression you're mostly a 'trust the experts'-dude. No reason to abandon that ship right now.
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United States41383 Posts
On October 25 2023 07:10 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 07:06 KwarK wrote:
To an extent it doesn’t actually matter. Israel would absolutely bomb a hospital. Hamas would absolutely hit a hospital and blame Israel. The specific party that did it this time changes absolutely nothing. They’re both already guilty of it many times over.
Imagine you’re in a room with two aggressive dogs, both of which have already given you pretty brutal bites. The lights go off and one of them savages you again.
When the lights come back on you’re not going to spend much time and effort working out exactly which of them it was. Just to be clear, there are currently 2 groups saying 2 different things. Group together the folks saying the hospital was bombed by Israel and compare it to the group saying it was PIJ accidentally hitting the hospital. You are saying you have no reason to differentiate between those 2?
If one of them was a good dog that would never bite anyone and one of them was a bad dog that needed to be put down then working out which bit you would have value. But that’s not the scenario. It changes nothing.
Israel aren’t arguing that they would never and will never hit a hospital. They aren’t arguing that if weapons were stored in a hospital they’d let that weapon dump survive. They’re arguing that in this particular instance they didn’t bomb the hospital. What does it change?
People who think Israel has the right to target hospitals would not mind even if they had bombed this one. People who don’t think Israel has the right to bomb hospitals are surely already condemning Israel for the other ones it has already bombed. One more changes nothing.
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On October 23 2023 15:26 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2023 09:53 Alakaslam wrote:On October 23 2023 03:33 KwarK wrote:
They’ve got far more in common than with the edges of their own parties. It’s purely partisan optics that prevent them working together. Agree. Generally consider myself Republican and yet I am ready to vote for Yang, should he run again, because all the parties are dysfunctional so we might as well have the printer just give the money back to us. Call me stupid or disinterested or conspiratorial or whatever you want based on my posting in the mafia forum, but that is where I am at. Low Intel voter who just wonders why we don't build good rail and help the poor in effective ways and also why we do not put any checks on depopulating. We are learning from Japan about currency stabilization going wrong. We are inflating the currency in some decently healthy ways, in other words. When will we learn that infrastructure projects are not wasteful spending when done right, and that raising children and supporting the conventional family structure is necessary to a functional society? Because Japan shows us the guide posts positively as well as negatively there. I speak not of Korea because my wife (for now?) grew up there and she is raising our daughter well. Personal experience that engenders some respect... If you're looking for effective ways to help the poor, Andrew Yang's UBI proposal is not it. His design was "$1,000/month flat UBI to everyone, paid for by eliminating all social welfare programs." The obvious flaw is he's taking the money currently being used to help the poor, and redistributing it to everyone. Even assuming that any savings in reduced bureaucracy allows that number to actually work, the poorest people receive more than $1,000 in various forms of aid every month. So everyone will see a $1,000/month increase in their income.... except the poor, who will see smaller increases in their monthly income the poorer they already are. Some of the people who are currently the worst off will see their monthly income actually go down, while prices are presumably going up because the spending power of the middle class went up.
I appreciate this. Thank you!
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Mark medows getting immunity to testify against trump is one of those things that would be getting wall to wall coverage if there wasn't two wars with nuclear powers involved and the biggest clown show of a congress in maybe us history.
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EPT
