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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On October 25 2023 12:04 Sermokala wrote:
Mark medows getting immunity to testify against trump is one of those things that would be getting wall to wall coverage if there wasn't two wars with nuclear powers involved and the biggest clown show of a congress in maybe us history.
It was a really busy day tbf. There was the Meadows report, Michael Cohen's testimony, Jenna Ellis' plea deal, and the House GOP speaker nominee fiasco
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On October 25 2023 06:24 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 06:11 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:58 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 25 2023 04:52 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:35 Sermokala wrote:On October 25 2023 04:30 Mohdoo wrote:On October 25 2023 04:10 Sermokala wrote:
What's so crazy about it? Even the people who trust and believe isreal should support an independent investigation of the facts to support Israel's story.
Calling for a ceasefire isn't a bad thing and having multiple viewpoints is what a healthy democracy is all about.
Also consider the people in her district that voted her in, she and omar are not going anywhere. 1) Gaslighting with "both sides" regarding the hospital situation as if it is some unknowable situation. The hospital is still there. Its total dog shit for her to be saying this crap. 2) "Gaza ministry of health" gives the impression this info is coming from someone other than Hamas. She is being intentionally misleading by pretending Hamas is a legitimate, trustworthy source of information. They are the ones who killed 1300 and lied about a hospital. 3) "The US has misled the public before, so who knows" 4) "we need to protect civilian lives" while Hamas is literally instructing their inhabitants death is better than leaving the land. It is so remarkably skewed and gives an enormous amount of undue credit to Hamas as if we have any reason to trust a single thing they say. Hamas's stated goal right now is for 0 Jews to be alive anywhere in the world. Hamas is not advocating for peace or any form of coexistence with Israel. Tlaib is trying to protect Hamas by pretending a ceasefire is a real concept. Its not. Hamas has reiterated their goals numerous times and recently. This is pure disinformation and "bothsides" gaslighting. I mean this is much further off the deep end than a fairly diplomatic call for independent verification of the facts. Most of this has no relation at all to her statement and is projecting a lot about what you think she's saying. By indicating the facts are not plainly visible, she is spreading disinformation. The facts are clearly visible. It is not reasonable to pretend there is uncertainty regarding the hospital bombing. Similarly, Hamas is not a valid source of reliable information. Lastly, Hamas still intends to kill all Jews and has openly stated that recently Which of these points is not true and/or up for debate? “Media outlets and third-party analysts have raised doubts about claims and evidence offered by both Israel and the Gaza Ministry of Health, and I agree with the United Nations that an independent investigation is necessary. I cannot uncritically accept Israel’s denials of responsibility as fact, especially in light of confirmation from the World Health Organization that Israel has bombed numerous medical facilities in Gaza and reports from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society of ongoing threats from the Israeli military to evacuate hospitals.
“Both the Israeli and United States governments have long, documented histories of misleading the public about wars and war crimes—like last year’s Israeli military assassination of Shireen Abu Akleh and the false claims of weapons of mass destruction that led our country into the Iraq War—and cannot clear themselves of responsibility without an independent international investigation. This debate should not distract us from the urgent need for a ceasefire to save innocent civilian lives.”
I keep reading this looking for the part where she claims that Hamas is a reliable source of information or that Hamas doesn't want to see all Jews dead. I still can't find it. edit: removed excessive sarcasm. “Gaza Ministry of Health” is a nonsense term that represents Hamas. Hamas is directly involved in the operations and messaging from “ Gaza Ministry of Health”. This makes sense, since the hospital is still present. If Hamas was honest, the hospital would be destroyed. Yes, but she doesn't say "I trust the information of either Hamas or Gaza Ministry of Health", she says that doubt has been cast on what they said and therefore an independent investigation as the UN suggested would be the best thing, because Israel and the US hardly have a trustworthy track record in these matters, and frankly I agree. On the very same day that Israel first denied the attack, they denied any suggestion of a humanitarian crisis in Gaza despite there being over a million displaced Palestinians. They aren't a trustworthy source of information on these things. If I had to believe either Israel or Hamas, I'd probably be inclined to lean towards Israel, but we shouldn't have to. An independent investigation would in fact be the best thing. Of course, if you believe that this suggestion is 'off the deep end', you are also saying the UN has gone off the deep end and we should all just trust Israel and the US. That sets a bad precedent imo, since both the US administration and the Israeli government are proven liars when it comes to this conflict. Having said that, in this specific case I think its probable that it was Hamas, but I wouldn't say someone has gone off the deep end for asking for an independent body to provide actual untainted and verifiable proof. Back to the US politics of it, since this is the US politics thread, I think her statement was reasonable, diplomatic and realistic. Over here we've got crowds of thousands of pro-Palestinians marching through the streets chanting "Jihad, Jihad", a 1350% rise in anti-Semitic attacks and local government members quitting because their national party have said reasonable stuff like "We back Israel but we insist they follow international law". That's off the deep end. I don't think the statement in a vacuum is bad but in the context of the event and her previous statements, it's pretty clear that she's full of shit. At this point OSINT, Western intelligence agencies, and investigations of independent news outlets all point towards a malfunctioning rocket from Gaza. And when the www.nytimes.com asked Hamas to providence evidence this was their response:
The Hamas-run health ministry has also declined to release further details about those 471 victims, and all traces of the munition have seemingly vanished from the site of the blast, making it impossible to assess its provenance. Raising further questions about Hamas’s claims, the impact site turned out to be the hospital parking lot, and not the hospital itself.
On Sunday, Hamas turned down requests by The Times to view any available evidence of the munition it said had struck the hospital, claiming that it had disintegrated beyond recognition.
“The missile has dissolved like salt in the water,” said Ghazi Hamad, a senior Hamas official, in a phone interview. “It’s vaporized. Nothing is left.”
Salama Maroof, the head of the Hamas-run government media office, said in a text message: “Who says we’re obligated to present the remnants of every rocket that kills our people? In general, you can come and research and confirm for yourself from the evidence we possess.”
Everyone knows what happened even if an independent investigation is not possible.
An hour after the misfire happened she uncritically echoed Hamas and tweeted that Israel bombed the hospital and killed 500. That tweet is still up without any correction. And now when all the evidence points towards terrorists in Gaza she calls for an independent investigation from the UN that everyone knows is never going to happen. I don't know if it qualifies as 'gone of the deep end' but her statement is not in good faith.
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On October 25 2023 07:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
If the question is 'how many palestinians were killed by israelian bombs' I'm honestly not inclined to trust Israel or the US before I trust the GMH. I'll trust the UN over either. And I think there's not really any immediate rush to get the correct number, if that takes a week I'm fine with that. I remember the first numbers after 9/11 were in the 10s of thousands, like 30-40k, eventually people realized it was a much much smaller number. People make some assumptions, sometimes they're wrong.
It is reasonable to frame the UN as mostly unbiased and I think your perspective would be appropriate in situations where the UN has the ability to conduct an independent investigation without the influence of Hamas. That is clearly not the case here. There is a reason the UN just cites Hamas in their report. There isn't other info. The UN isn't able to procure any other info. The whole thing is fake and I don't think you are under the impression they have some unique method of acquiring this info. If they did, they wouldn't just cite Hamas in their report. You citing that report highlights the issue here. You cited it without realizing the sources of the UN's info was literally just Hamas. That dynamic and the fact that you shared that shows many people aren't aware the UN accepts Hamas's word on this topic. That's clearly a huge issue.
You don't have any reason to trust the UN in this situation because the UN is mostly benign and does not have either the means or influence to conduct an entirely independent investigation. That is a big part of what makes Tlaib's comments bad faith. Nobody actually thinks there is some mechanism of conducting some other investigation. And when the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the attack not coming from Israel, it is extremely dishonest to frame the situation as unsettled.
There will not be an independent investigation because it won't be permitted to happen. There is no other information source. The whole concept is a made up farce because it is plainly obvious the situation simply doesn't allow for this made up concept to exist.
Gaza is run by a terrorist organization and this terrorist organization enjoys high approval among its citizens and has built a culture that makes people accepting and encouraging of their militaristic goals. Hamas is confirmed to store weapons and conduct rocket attacks from schools and hospitals, with no need to hide these facts from the citizens. The citizens do not fight it and many are so young that they are comparable to people who are born into a cult. They are tragic victims of the situation, but the fact is that tallying them up equivalent to our standard definition of "civilian" is not remotely appropriate.
Using standard definitions for civilians vs combatants does not apply to Gaza because the inhabitants subscribe to a deeply unique perspective on war participation and the value of human life. When civilians are actively encouraged to give their lives for Hamas's goals, and Hamas has high approval within Gaza, framing it as "Palestinians" with the implication that they are entirely removed from the conflict and not working towards Hamas's goals is not honest.
Tlaib is making a conscious effort to muddy the waters in this situation because the evidence is heavily stacked against her worldview. She is knowingly provided a distorted read of the situation as an indirect means of supporting Hamas. It is extremely bad for her to do that as a member of congress.
The NYT is perhaps the worst case scenario for you to cite here because of how they framed this situation from the beginning.
If you are citing the NYT as some kind of expert in this situation, I'm sorry to report that is not the case.
The fact is: Tlaib is acting in bad faith in support of an organization who has a stated goal of eliminating all Jews. It is totally nuts to pretend that is even slightly appropriate.
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Alright lets get to another speaker vote. CNN projects this one has a good chance of working.
the first question Mike Johnson got as speaker nom was immediately shouted down by everyone around him beacuse he couldn't be allowed to answer it or he would lose the vote for sure. What an image to start your time in the national spotlight.
Gatz and others all acknowledging that they will have to do a CR, johnson putting that as part of his announcement is probably a big breakthrough to secure power. 216 is the votes needed to become speaker and the magic number is 4 republicans to prevent johnson from becoming speaker.
Spaced out during the republican nom speech just standard bible stuff. There was a moment where Jeffries said that johnson was an architect for stealing the election and bobert cheered that, which is wild that they're happy to wear that badge but its 2023 I guess.
I'm sure they must be going insane but jesus these people who add commentary on top of their vote is unbearable at this point. I get "honorable" as a brown noser but no one is going to pick up your poorly recorded soundbite.
I think we're out of the woods now, this new embaressing chapter of history should finally be over.
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United States10540 Posts
Mike Johnson has won the Speakership. Election denier republican. Oh boy.
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Feels like the moderate Republicans have capitulated and voted for a MAGA election denies, anti-covid vaxer because they know they can never get a speaker elected who is not crazy?
But this will massively increase the chance of a budget without Ukraine aid being pushed. Is there a world in which the Senate and/or Biden send bills without aid back and push for a shutdown instead?
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On October 26 2023 03:21 Gorsameth wrote:
Feels like the moderate Republicans have capitulated and voted for a MAGA election denies, anti-covid vaxer because they know they can never get a speaker elected who is not crazy?
But this will massively increase the chance of a budget without Ukraine aid being pushed. Is there a world in which the Senate and/or Biden send bills without aid back and push for a shutdown instead?
Definity. the campaign trail starts early next year and fighting against russia is always an easy sell. Ukraine has an effective PR campaign and with trump in jail, or fighting the imagine of congressional chaos, republicans are going to have a hard enough time keeping the seats they flipped without fighting against MIC cash on top of all that. The GOP senate has been signaling that they're not standing against Ukraine aid so its not like the moderates have any cover at all.
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United States44242 Posts
Centrist republicans would rather join a coalition with their own lunatic fringe than work with centrist democrats. Partisan politics.
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Mike Johnson is a solid pick. I dunno what Sermo is upset about its not like he would be voting for any of these people anyways. Glad to see they worked through it and didn't pick some middling Mcarthy stooge. We'll see if he can hold it together.
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On October 26 2023 04:00 KwarK wrote:
Centrist republicans would rather join a coalition with their own lunatic fringe than work with centrist democrats. Partisan politics.
They can align with the election deniers or they can align with democrats. Every road leads to no political future for them.
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On October 26 2023 05:14 JimmiC wrote:
How's he any different than who they booted out? He is worse. So he is less likely to betray the crazies because he is absolutely one of them.
To add some context.
He is a homophobe who fought for criminalization of gay sex.
Speaker of the House Mike Johnson has a history of harsh anti-gay language from his time as an attorney for a socially conservative legal group in the mid-2000s.
In editorials that ran in his local Shreveport, Louisiana, paper, The Times, Johnson called homosexuality a “inherently unnatural” and “dangerous lifestyle” that would lead to legalized pedophilia and possibly even destroy “the entire democratic system.”
And, in another editorial, he wrote, “Your race, creed, and sex are what you are, while homosexuality and cross-dressing are things you do,” he wrote. “This is a free country, but we don’t give special protections for every person’s bizarre choices.”
At the time, Johnson was an attorney and spokesman for Alliance Defense Fund, known today as Alliance Defending Freedom, where he also authored his opposition to the Supreme Court ruling in Lawrence v. Texas – which overturned state laws that criminalized homosexual activity between consenting adults. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/25/politics/mike-johnson-gay-sex-criminalization-kfile/index.html
He fought against the Pentagons Covid vaccine mandate
https://mikejohnson.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=1184
He is anti Abortion, somehow scared of women having abortions mere moments before giving birth.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a40038979/mike-johnson-abortion-seconds-away-from-birth/
He is a climate change denier.
https://www.eenews.net/articles/mike-johnson-a-climate-science-skeptic-is-speaker-nominee/
And he tried to overturn the 2020 election
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/mike-johnson-january-6-house-speaker-nominee-rcna122081
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It's really hard to see the US as not headed for shutdown and then default now. Johnson is from a red district in a red state, whose relevant constituents will almost certainly reward him for trying to hold the US economy hostage and never compromising with Democrats.
On October 26 2023 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
So absolutely nothing will get done until the next election I'm sure the GOP will find plenty of time to hold repeated hearings about the alleged corruption of Joe Biden, the Deep State, and any other enemy they can conjure to wave in front of their base to keep them angry.
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@Gorsameth your pro women who have abortions mere minutes before birth? what a bout a few minutes after, I mean what doe's it matter at the point eh. Also to be fair to you that was a congressional hearing I believe where he's firing questions at a democrat witness. For real though yikes.
He's better then Mcarthy.
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Norway28876 Posts
Nobody chooses to have an abortion while they're giving birth, wtf.
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United States44242 Posts
On October 26 2023 05:51 Taelshin wrote:
@Gorsameth your pro women who have abortions mere minutes before birth? what a bout a few minutes after, I mean what doe's it matter at the point eh. Also to be fair to you that was a congressional hearing I believe where he's firing questions at a democrat witness. For real though yikes.
He's better then Mcarthy.
Moron
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@drone of course they don't. That's why its easy to answer the question unless your a radical on abortion.
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Can't report Kwark's post but I'm pretty sure if I dropped a 1 word moron to anyone here id get a warning maybe even a temp ban. You can do better Kwark.
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United States44242 Posts
On October 26 2023 06:03 Taelshin wrote:
Can't report Kwark's post but I'm pretty sure if I dropped a 1 word moron to anyone here id get a temp suspy maybe even a temp ban. You can do better Kwark.
I can post better, but I don’t always choose to when faced with that level of stupidity. Unfortunately I sincerely doubt that you can do better than your post.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/py4DVKT.png)
