EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 4090
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
|
ZerOCoolSC2
9066 Posts
| ||
|
Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
| ||
|
ZerOCoolSC2
9066 Posts
On October 27 2023 01:13 Gahlo wrote: A new one or the one from last night? From last night. Just had the conference and gave more details. I saw the headlines last night and didn't think anything of it. This morning it has escalated. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Simberto
Germany12015 Posts
On October 27 2023 01:15 JimmiC wrote: Was that the same speech where he said he was going to punch Biden right in his fake nose and plastic would fly everywhere? Guy says a new moronic thing every time he speaks. See, i never know if stuff like this is satire or actually true. It sounds like satire, it sounds like something no one would ever say at a public speech, but then it is Trump. | ||
KwarK
United States44353 Posts
On October 27 2023 01:56 Simberto wrote: See, i never know if stuff like this is satire or actually true. It sounds like satire, it sounds like something no one would ever say at a public speech, but then it is Trump. Trump is impossible to satirize. You can watch the video of the flypaper Gaza speech. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On October 26 2023 18:17 Gorsameth wrote: Lies, damned lies, and statistics If your saying that x% support late term abortions what are you actually asking? Are you asking if late term abortions should be allowed for any reason? Are you asking if they should be allowed for medical reasons (often abnormalities in the fetus)? Are you asking if they should be allowed to save the life of the mother? Because its real easy to ask option 3, get tons of people saying they agree and then construct is as option 1. The 'pro-life' group does this constantly. Take reasonable positions, like allowing early abortions before the fetus has developed, and banning later abortions unless for major medical reasons and construct it as pro-choice advocates wanting to kill babies as they are being born just because they no longer feel like it. This poll breaks it down with more options https://apnorc.org/projects/more-americans-disapprove-than-approve-of-the-supreme-courts-decision-to-overturn-roe-v-wade/ The options are in the third trimester should abortion be Legal in all cases Legal in most cases Illegal in most cases Illegal in all cases Seemingly, “illegal in most cases” would cover cases of fetal defects and grave danger to the mother as “most” 3rd trimester pregnancies do not have those things. In this poll 17% of Democrats chose legal in all cases and another 21% legal in most cases. So 38% of Democrats think abortion should be legal in most or all cases in the 3rd trimester. Alternatively I could be more charitable and assume that the people choosing “legal in most cases” interpret that as “cases of abortion” and not “cases of pregnancy” and those cases of abortion are more likely to be non-elective i.e more likely to be cases of fetal defects. Even if that’s entirely conceded it still leaves 17% of Democrats that believe abortion in the 3rd trimester should be legal in all cases. Not sure why that’s even difficult to accept. Plenty of people have extreme views on a whole plethora of issues. Pulling a trump and shouting “Fake News” just because you can’t fathom people supporting abortion for full term fetuses doesn’t make it so. The idea that literally everyone is on board with a 22-24~ week ban on elective abortion is far-fetched to me. | ||
|
Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
On October 27 2023 07:52 BlackJack wrote: Going to really simplify this for you. "Should be legal in all cases" is not "support all abortions," it's opposition to Republican state legislatures writing abortion bans to be as restrictive as they think they can get away with. If those politicians are given any wiggle room to ban abortions in any case, they're going to write laws that include any restrictions they're not prohibited from including and don't include any exceptions they're not forced to include.This poll breaks it down with more options https://apnorc.org/projects/more-americans-disapprove-than-approve-of-the-supreme-courts-decision-to-overturn-roe-v-wade/ The options are in the third trimester should abortion be Legal in all cases Legal in most cases Illegal in most cases Illegal in all cases Seemingly, “illegal in most cases” would cover cases of fetal defects and grave danger to the mother as “most” 3rd trimester pregnancies do not have those things. In this poll 17% of Democrats chose legal in all cases and another 21% legal in most cases. So 38% of Democrats think abortion should be legal in most or all cases in the 3rd trimester. Alternatively I could be more charitable and assume that the people choosing “legal in most cases” interpret that as “cases of abortion” and not “cases of pregnancy” and those cases of abortion are more likely to be non-elective i.e more likely to be cases of fetal defects. Even if that’s entirely conceded it still leaves 17% of Democrats that believe abortion in the 3rd trimester should be legal in all cases. Not sure why that’s even difficult to accept. Plenty of people have extreme views on a whole plethora of issues. Pulling a trump and shouting “Fake News” just because you can’t fathom people supporting abortion for full term fetuses doesn’t make it so. The idea that literally everyone is on board with a 22-24~ week ban on elective abortion is far-fetched to me. Republicans at the state level have spent at least the last decade or two passed trigger laws, laws pushing the envelope, and clearly unconstitutional laws designed to give the Supreme Court an opportunity to overturn Roe v. Wade. They have made it incredibly clear the the only alternative to the current slate of laws is a complete ban on laws restricting abortion access. Allowed any space at all to craft abortion restrictions, Republicans will inevitably keep passing laws with earlier and earlier cutoffs and fewer and fewer exceptions until we're right back at the current state. That is to say, bans effective so early that most women wouldn't know they're pregnant yet, often without any exceptions for rape or incest, and with very little space for the health of the mother to take precedence. Anyway, I find it odd that small government conservatives who do not trust the government to get much, if anything, right, and who were outraged at the idea of the government making any sort of healthcare decisions when the ACA was passed, for some reason trust governments to effectively write bills regulating a category of health care where unique and unanticipated cases arise regularly. | ||
|
ZerOCoolSC2
9066 Posts
On October 27 2023 07:52 BlackJack wrote: This poll breaks it down with more options https://apnorc.org/projects/more-americans-disapprove-than-approve-of-the-supreme-courts-decision-to-overturn-roe-v-wade/ The options are in the third trimester should abortion be Legal in all cases Legal in most cases Illegal in most cases Illegal in all cases Seemingly, “illegal in most cases” would cover cases of fetal defects and grave danger to the mother as “most” 3rd trimester pregnancies do not have those things. In this poll 17% of Democrats chose legal in all cases and another 21% legal in most cases. So 38% of Democrats think abortion should be legal in most or all cases in the 3rd trimester. Alternatively I could be more charitable and assume that the people choosing “legal in most cases” interpret that as “cases of abortion” and not “cases of pregnancy” and those cases of abortion are more likely to be non-elective i.e more likely to be cases of fetal defects. Even if that’s entirely conceded it still leaves 17% of Democrats that believe abortion in the 3rd trimester should be legal in all cases. Not sure why that’s even difficult to accept. Plenty of people have extreme views on a whole plethora of issues. Pulling a trump and shouting “Fake News” just because you can’t fathom people supporting abortion for full term fetuses doesn’t make it so. The idea that literally everyone is on board with a 22-24~ week ban on elective abortion is far-fetched to me. Leaving ambiguous options like that is what Gor is talking about. You literally have to break it down word by word to get where people stand. You ask me that question and I'm going to choose Legal in all cases just so everything that could be covered is covered in regards to health of the mother/fetus. You're cherry picking and doing exactly what everyone is talking about in that your purposefully misconstruing shit to fit a narrative that isn't true. E: Kyad said it better. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland27459 Posts
On October 27 2023 07:52 BlackJack wrote: This poll breaks it down with more options https://apnorc.org/projects/more-americans-disapprove-than-approve-of-the-supreme-courts-decision-to-overturn-roe-v-wade/ The options are in the third trimester should abortion be Legal in all cases Legal in most cases Illegal in most cases Illegal in all cases Seemingly, “illegal in most cases” would cover cases of fetal defects and grave danger to the mother as “most” 3rd trimester pregnancies do not have those things. In this poll 17% of Democrats chose legal in all cases and another 21% legal in most cases. So 38% of Democrats think abortion should be legal in most or all cases in the 3rd trimester. Alternatively I could be more charitable and assume that the people choosing “legal in most cases” interpret that as “cases of abortion” and not “cases of pregnancy” and those cases of abortion are more likely to be non-elective i.e more likely to be cases of fetal defects. Even if that’s entirely conceded it still leaves 17% of Democrats that believe abortion in the 3rd trimester should be legal in all cases. Not sure why that’s even difficult to accept. Plenty of people have extreme views on a whole plethora of issues. Pulling a trump and shouting “Fake News” just because you can’t fathom people supporting abortion for full term fetuses doesn’t make it so. The idea that literally everyone is on board with a 22-24~ week ban on elective abortion is far-fetched to me. Who is claiming that? Hey I’m pro drug legalisation, does it necessarily follow that I’m pro heroin addiction? Even if your numbers follow 17% of the democratic vote having this position equates to a sub 8-9% of the overall population holding it, so it being held up as some boogeyman is still as disproportionate as people here were claiming anyway | ||
|
KwarK
United States44353 Posts
On October 27 2023 07:52 BlackJack wrote: This poll breaks it down with more options https://apnorc.org/projects/more-americans-disapprove-than-approve-of-the-supreme-courts-decision-to-overturn-roe-v-wade/ The options are in the third trimester should abortion be Legal in all cases Legal in most cases Illegal in most cases Illegal in all cases Seemingly, “illegal in most cases” would cover cases of fetal defects and grave danger to the mother as “most” 3rd trimester pregnancies do not have those things. In this poll 17% of Democrats chose legal in all cases and another 21% legal in most cases. So 38% of Democrats think abortion should be legal in most or all cases in the 3rd trimester. Alternatively I could be more charitable and assume that the people choosing “legal in most cases” interpret that as “cases of abortion” and not “cases of pregnancy” and those cases of abortion are more likely to be non-elective i.e more likely to be cases of fetal defects. Even if that’s entirely conceded it still leaves 17% of Democrats that believe abortion in the 3rd trimester should be legal in all cases. Not sure why that’s even difficult to accept. Plenty of people have extreme views on a whole plethora of issues. Pulling a trump and shouting “Fake News” just because you can’t fathom people supporting abortion for full term fetuses doesn’t make it so. The idea that literally everyone is on board with a 22-24~ week ban on elective abortion is far-fetched to me. Legal in all cases does not imply that a full term pregnancy termination results in the life birth of a healthy baby followed by the doctor executing it with his hospital issue handgun. Terminating pregnancy doesn’t mean killing a healthy full term baby. | ||
|
BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On October 27 2023 10:34 KwarK wrote: Legal in all cases does not imply that a full term pregnancy termination results in the life birth of a healthy baby followed by the doctor executing it with his hospital issue handgun. Terminating pregnancy doesn’t mean killing a healthy full term baby. We’re not talking about “pregnancy termination” we are talking about abortion and yeah abortion generally involves the death of the fetus. That’s the word we use for that. You don’t get to sub-in different words to change the meaning of the question. | ||
|
BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On October 27 2023 10:30 WombaT wrote: Who is claiming that? Hey I’m pro drug legalisation, does it necessarily follow that I’m pro heroin addiction? Even if your numbers follow 17% of the democratic vote having this position equates to a sub 8-9% of the overall population holding it, so it being held up as some boogeyman is still as disproportionate as people here were claiming anyway I think we can all agree that believing something “should be legal” is not the same as believing people should go out and do that thing. Not sure why multiple people are posting this at me so if my post was somehow implying that Democrats have wet dreams over women getting lots of abortions then that wasn’t my intention. | ||
|
KwarK
United States44353 Posts
On October 27 2023 10:56 BlackJack wrote: We’re not talking about “pregnancy termination” we are talking about abortion and yeah abortion generally involves the death of the fetus. That’s the word we use for that. You don’t get to sub-in different words to change the meaning of the question. Abortion generally involves death because it generally involves a non viable fetus. You are arguing about the specific hypothetical case when a 9 month pregnant woman with a healthy baby requests a termination. What generally applies doesn’t apply here. No doctor is going to pull out the abortion guillotine and put the newborn’s neck under the blade. It doesn’t happen. Abortion doesn’t seek to kill the baby, it seeks to end the pregnancy. People who support abortion recognize the death of the baby as an unfortunate side effect of the process of performed before the baby is viable. When they say that there should be an option to terminate a pregnancy at 9 months they aren’t saying that the baby should be killed. A viable baby gets to just be a baby. | ||
|
BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On October 27 2023 08:54 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Leaving ambiguous options like that is what Gor is talking about. You literally have to break it down word by word to get where people stand. You ask me that question and I'm going to choose Legal in all cases just so everything that could be covered is covered in regards to health of the mother/fetus. You're cherry picking and doing exactly what everyone is talking about in that your purposefully misconstruing shit to fit a narrative that isn't true. E: Kyad said it better. Since this topic started with the new speaker Mike Johnson asking questions about late term abortions this video seems appropriate Skip to 2:30 and it’s a pretty clear ask and answer “Do you support late term abortion” “Anybody should have the right to have an abortion at any time for any reason.” It’s not a limited choice poll. It’s an open forum and she can answer however she wants. Does this still lack the necessary nuance to determine where she stands? Maybe your eyes and ears are more trustworthy than the polls. | ||
|
KwarK
United States44353 Posts
| ||
|
BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On October 27 2023 12:23 KwarK wrote: Blackjack, when you imagine a late term abortion of a healthy viable 9 month from conception fetus what execution method are you imagining the doctor uses after he takes the baby out? I think if they had any sense at all they would kill it while it’s still in the womb for legal reasons. According to the wiki article on intact D&E they sometimes inject potassium chloride to kill the fetus, which is the same method they use for lethal injection of death row inmates. Surely it’s easier to just use your blender than it is to do a ultrasound guided needle injection on a fetus still in the womb, but the latter is obviously preferred for legal reasons. But really the answer is I don’t spend my time imagining it. Aborting full term fetuses is not something that’s done in this country. Just like we don’t stone gay people to death in this country either. I’d bet there’s some percent of Republicans that think gay people should be stoned to death and maybe it’s useful to know who has these extreme views regardless if it is something that does or will ever happen. Asking “what kind of rocks do you imagine them using” isn’t some kind of gotcha to refute whether people actually hold those views. | ||
|
KwarK
United States44353 Posts
On October 27 2023 12:43 BlackJack wrote: I think if they had any sense at all they would kill it while it’s still in the womb for legal reasons. According to the wiki article on intact D&E they sometimes inject potassium chloride to kill the fetus, which is the same method they use for lethal injection of death row inmates. Surely it’s easier to just use your blender than it is to do a ultrasound guided needle injection on a fetus still in the womb, but the latter is obviously preferred for legal reasons. But really the answer is I don’t spend my time imagining it. Aborting full term fetuses is not something that’s done in this country. Just like we don’t stone gay people to death in this country either. I’d bet there’s some percent of Republicans that think gay people should be stoned to death and maybe it’s useful to know who has these extreme views regardless if it is something that does or will ever happen. Asking “what kind of rocks do you imagine them using” isn’t some kind of gotcha to refute whether people actually hold those views. But you think that 39% of Democrats support the legal executions of these 9 month viable healthy babies. What are you imagining that support looks like? I genuinely have no idea because to me it’s entirely absurd, that’s obviously not what they’re supporting, they clearly don’t mean that. But you’ve been insisting that you think that they really do mean it so please expand upon it. | ||
|
BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On October 27 2023 12:58 KwarK wrote: But you think that 39% of Democrats support the legal executions of these 9 month viable healthy babies. What are you imagining that support looks like? I genuinely have no idea because to me it’s entirely absurd, that’s obviously not what they’re supporting, they clearly don’t mean that. But you’ve been insisting that you think that they really do mean it so please expand upon it. Their support is in the form of believing that a woman should be able to have an abortion at any time for any reason. With an abortion understood to be leading to death of the fetus. The manner of how it’s done is irrelevant. Laypeople aren’t expected to have intimate knowledge of how medical procedures are done. If you ask a layperson if they support the right of someone with appendicitis to have an appendectomy you wouldn’t say they don’t fully support it unless they know whether it will be done laparoscopically or open, or what’s going to happen to the appendix after it’s removed from the body. | ||
| ||
