EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 4089
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Taelshin
Canada415 Posts
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Calanthe
United States139 Posts
On October 26 2023 06:03 Taelshin wrote: Can't report Kwark's post but I'm pretty sure if I dropped a 1 word moron to anyone here id get a warning maybe even a temp ban. You can do better Kwark. of course he can do better, but in no way did you deserve anything more than that. | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17324 Posts
The guy with a G name (on mobile right now) is trying to say nobody on the left except absolute fringe nuts who nobody really listens to is pushing for abortion after the second trimester, let alone partial birth abortion. Keep in mind, people clearly don't remember that partial birth abortion was a thing in the United States during their lifetimes. When you forget the progress of your own side, you hit a soft spot. The TL Mafia expats forum did this to me, so I resonate with the pain. I also believe all abortion should be controlled except for to save the life of the mother/ rape or incest/ medical complications/ etc. but I don't go around implying that people still push for partial birth abortion after that got blown up and made apparent to the world for what it was. Just like I would hope people don't call me a nazi for wanting us to address population collapse, and liking public transit, and wanting to respect religious people who aren't threatening us but have archaic views (I believe Muslims have gotten a pass for the past 20 or so years due to terrorism having been rather strangely effective) If I had been a mod in that discord, I would have handed out bans for how I was misrepresented. Given that, I actually feel Kwark has shown significant restraint. From his perspective, you are accusing a rather reasonable person of being a monster, while being an intolerant fringe political radical yourself. Used to be a bannable offense here. I've been banned for opposing gun control using the Hitler argument in the context of a Jewish organization from Ohio. Just because I didn't know better doesn't excuse the clear logical fallacy I employed while calling everyone on the "other side" a fascist. Moronic. I was banned. I resented it and learned nothing at the time. Learned some history, grew up, had people on "my side" who were not part of GOTV groups & the like. They reprimanded me accordingly (as I am attempting to do for you) and I DID learn. KwarK seems to understand this subtlety to some extent and has not temp banned you or warned you or anything. Don't get all Stimey 'd okmg fish about it. Post edit: A few clarifications. 1. I'm still a moron. Just more self aware and learned to be humble. 2. Most of the left vs right bullshit is actually urban vs rural. We are all on the same side in this country, and mostly abroad as well, when you really get down to brass tacks in a civil manner. In war, say Ukraine really became entangled and we had to draft- I firmly believe you'd fight alongside KwarK and KwarK would do the same- and you both would probably get along much better in that context. If KwarK moved to a farm town, and you moved to Los Angeles, y'all would probably turn out a lot more moderate for being able to experience the things that influence your worldviews within about 5 years. I say this based on my personal experience growing up a literal farm boy and moving to downtown LA the last 4 years, causing me to meet people who have had to deal with situations that just don't happen in the desert. I've smelled the exhaust sitting in traffic, and had coal rolled in front of me because I got a plug in hybrid (oh the humanity!) I am sick of political intolerance. But I am ready to get back into it with fresh eyes. And weigh in where acceptable and helpful to do so. Lastly, Ioselb or someone might see this and unload some shit. Yes, I have a friend- formerly a typical liberal democrat- who got beat up by Antifa shits in Berkeley who didn't like the color of his skin. The experience radicalized him, and he is now a literal "there is a lot of truth in mein kamf" nazi and also Andrew tate type Muslim. I still try to talk him out of this, but those wolves from that discord I thought I would join have decided I am a nazi by association. So If you so decide to be swayed by any of the folks who drew this conclusion, I think the mods can have mercy and ban my account without my harboring any resentment. But (which I rather believe will turn out to be the case) if we have more subtlety and tolerance than that, I hope I can be a positive contributor here  + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1857800/ I will not accuse anyone of lying. This was long enough ago that I was not an adult at the time- and, I am by no means the youngest TL user. I promise I will remain silent. I have already lied in here. But rudeness has never convinced anyone. Y'all seriously don't have true and real science on your side, as Science itself cannot take sides. It is a method. Y'all on the left are the new catholic church, and y'all on the right are just the old Imperialist (read: very similar to fascist) order trying to rear it's ugly head again. At least the catholic church took care of some poor! And, I think the new lot are at least self-aware (I would hope so.) | ||
KwarK
United States41934 Posts
On October 26 2023 06:32 Alakaslam wrote: The reason you are being called a moron is your misreading of the post to which you replied. The guy with a G name (on mobile right now) is trying to say nobody on the left except absolute fringe nuts who nobody really listens to is pushing for abortion after the second trimester, let alone partial birth abortion. Keep in mind, people clearly don't remember that partial birth abortion was a thing in the United States during their lifetimes. When you forget the progress of your own side, you hit a soft spot. The TL Mafia expats forum did this to me, so I resonate with the pain. I also believe all abortion should be controlled except for to save the life of the mother/ rape or incest/ medical complications/ etc. but I don't go around implying that people still push for partial birth abortion after that got blown up and made apparent to the world for what it was. Just like I would hope people don't call me a nazi for wanting us to address population collapse, and liking public transit, and wanting to respect religious people who aren't threatening us but have archaic views (I believe Muslims have gotten a pass for the past 20 or so years due to terrorism having been rather strangely effective) If I had been a mod in that discord, I would have handed out bans for how I was misrepresented. Given that, I actually feel Kwark has shown significant restraint. From his perspective, you are accusing a rather reasonable person of being a monster, while being an intolerant fringe political radical yourself. Used to be a bannable offense here. I've been banned for opposing gun control using the Hitler argument in the context of a Jewish organization from Ohio. Just because I didn't know better doesn't excuse the clear logical fallacy I employed while calling everyone on the "other side" a fascist. Moronic. I was banned. I resented it and learned nothing at the time. Learned some history, grew up, had people on "my side" who were not part of GOTV groups & the like. They reprimanded me accordingly (as I am attempting to do for you) and I DID learn. KwarK seems to understand this subtlety to some extent and has not temp banned you or warned you or anything. Don't get all Stimey 'd okmg fish about it. Your post also seems to be dumb. Nobody was ever legally killing viable newborn infants. That’s called infanticide, not abortion, and it’s not a political issue. There is a medical operation to terminate late term pregnancies of viable babies. It’s called a c-section. It terminates the pregnancy. No doctor is going to finish the c-section and then go “you wanna keep this or shall I abort it?” to the mother. The whole political “debate” regarding late term abortions is built on this fantastical idea that mothers were carrying babies for 9 months and then deciding to kill them because they didn’t have a babysitter and wanted to go out or whatever. The Republicans came out swinging as rabidly against murdering children while the Democrats came out confused as also against murdering children but not entirely sure why they were under attack. The only people still talking about abortions right up to the point of birth are the idiots who got sucked into that fantasy and haven’t worked it out yet. Nobody was ever for it, it’s a made up issue. There’s a lot of other weird stuff in your post. I don’t know your story but if everyone around you keeps telling you to cool it on the Nazi stuff then maybe you should look into that? | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17324 Posts
On October 26 2023 06:39 KwarK wrote: Your post also seems to be dumb. Nobody was ever legally killing viable newborn infants. That’s called infanticide, not abortion, and it’s not a political issue. There is a medical operation to terminate late term pregnancies of viable babies. It’s called a c-section. It terminates the pregnancy. No doctor is going to finish the c-section and then go “you wanna keep this or shall I abort it?” to the mother. The whole political “debate” regarding late term abortions is built on this fantastical idea that mothers were carrying babies for 9 months and then deciding to kill them because they didn’t have a babysitter and wanted to go out or whatever. The Republicans came out swinging as rabidly against murdering children while the Democrats came out confused as also against murdering children but not entirely sure why they were under attack. The only people still talking about abortions right up to the point of birth are the idiots who got sucked into that fantasy and haven’t worked it out yet. Nobody was ever for it, it’s a made up issue. There’s a lot of other weird stuff in your post. I don’t know your story but if everyone around you keeps telling you to cool it on the Nazi stuff then maybe you should look into that? I am sure your detractors will listen to you now. If you can't be gradual or speak to a different paradigm, m8, then I am not sure I should bother. It's quite possible you've undone any good my post could have done. Oh well. You don't tell my daughter, "Rosemary, you should not enter the parkway as this may be a critical endangerment to your well being", you say, "Rosie no stop!" She is 3. She is new to the world, let alone the concept of a street. You don't make addicts go cold turkey, I could go on I actually wonder whether you read my post carefully to begin with. My whole point is, I had to learn not to be obsessed with nazi junk back when I was banned by Kennigit. Long time ago. I have moved on and learned that my own affiliations were closer to nazi affiliates than those of the people I was accusing of doing so. | ||
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farvacola
United States18818 Posts
Also yeah, that was a weird post, perhaps you’ve some more introspection in order lol Edit: and that second post fares no better, you were addicted to partial birth abortions and you’re a Nazi affiliate? What are you even saying. | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17324 Posts
On October 26 2023 06:59 farvacola wrote: Worth noting that partial birth abortion is not even a medically recognized term. Also yeah, that was a weird post, perhaps you’ve some more introspection in order lol Edit: and that second post fares no better, you were addicted to partial birth abortions? What are you even saying. Writing kinda fast. I also am a poor writer. People on the right are fed a lot of conservative kool-aid. Can you grant me that? They are addicted to the ideology. You have to wean radicals off of radicalism. It works. When you take a power and control approach, they further entrench themselves. When you just come at people with raw facts, if it contradicts their ideology too strictly, they will simply ignore you and write off fact. People can be persuaded with skill and care, however. Edit: added "and care". I think you can be a very skilled negotiator and still wind up entrenching someone in false belief. | ||
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Calanthe
United States139 Posts
The point of presenting people with raw facts that perhaps contradict their ideology very sharply isn't to sway them in the moment, right then and there. That very rarely happens, and the person in question needs to be both overwhelmingly reasonable and pretty receptive in the moment in order for things to go down perfectly like that. Each argument adds to a body of arguments that person's been facing down and trying to fend off for who knows how long, and eventually their little mental dam breaks, with any luck. You can do all that without handling them with kid gloves and worrying about their poor little Nazi/forced birth/transphobic/whatever feelings. e: Also, that's a perfectly reasonable thing to say to a three-year-old. A grown-ass adult can handle more complicated information. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10180 Posts
On October 26 2023 06:39 KwarK wrote: Your post also seems to be dumb. Nobody was ever legally killing viable newborn infants. That’s called infanticide, not abortion, and it’s not a political issue. There is a medical operation to terminate late term pregnancies of viable babies. It’s called a c-section. It terminates the pregnancy. No doctor is going to finish the c-section and then go “you wanna keep this or shall I abort it?” to the mother. The whole political “debate” regarding late term abortions is built on this fantastical idea that mothers were carrying babies for 9 months and then deciding to kill them because they didn’t have a babysitter and wanted to go out or whatever. The Republicans came out swinging as rabidly against murdering children while the Democrats came out confused as also against murdering children but not entirely sure why they were under attack. The only people still talking about abortions right up to the point of birth are the idiots who got sucked into that fantasy and haven’t worked it out yet. Nobody was ever for it, it’s a made up issue. There’s a lot of other weird stuff in your post. I don’t know your story but if everyone around you keeps telling you to cool it on the Nazi stuff then maybe you should look into that? There are plenty of people that support the right to abortion right up to the point of giving birth, including 39% of Democrats according to this PBS article. www.pbs.org. Late-term abortions are rare, according to the CDC source I googled something like 4,200 per year occur at greater than or equal to 21 weeks which is 1%~ of total abortions, but also not zero. The idea that nobody supports abortion for viable fetuses or that viable fetuses never get aborted is also fantasy. | ||
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Introvert
United States4654 Posts
On October 26 2023 12:17 BlackJack wrote: There are plenty of people that support the right to abortion right up to the point of giving birth, including 39% of Democrats according to this PBS article. www.pbs.org. Late-term abortions are rare, according to the CDC source I googled something like 4,200 per year occur at greater than or equal to 21 weeks which is 1%~ of total abortions, but also not zero. The idea that nobody supports abortion for viable fetuses or that viable fetuses never get aborted is also fantasy. Also if you look at what's happening on the (blue) state level, what dems in Congress have voted for, and listened to what elected dems have said, many of their politicians are functionally ok with abortion through the third trimester. Dems keep being asked what number of weeks they would set the limit at and almost all of them hem and haw instead of answering the question. It's hard to even get one to say "the Roe limit" because of the radicals in the party. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28553 Posts
Maybe there are some cases of 'boyfriend cheated on me when I was 5 months pregnant and I don't want to be a single mom' where I can see arguments either way but tbh with how demanding being a parent is, while being in a stable marriage with a healthy child, I'm not judging those either. | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17324 Posts
On October 26 2023 10:09 Calanthe wrote: Write a little slower, take your time. It's okay. This is the last bastion of goodposting. Bring yourself up to the mark. The point of presenting people with raw facts that perhaps contradict their ideology very sharply isn't to sway them in the moment, right then and there. That very rarely happens, and the person in question needs to be both overwhelmingly reasonable and pretty receptive in the moment in order for things to go down perfectly like that. Each argument adds to a body of arguments that person's been facing down and trying to fend off for who knows how long, and eventually their little mental dam breaks, with any luck. You can do all that without handling them with kid gloves and worrying about their poor little Nazi/forced birth/transphobic/whatever feelings. e: Also, that's a perfectly reasonable thing to say to a three-year-old. A grown-ass adult can handle more complicated information. Valid points, if my experience didn't contradict some small part of this I'd sheep you outright. However I learned better than I once knew at a much slower rate, thanks to TL.net political arrogance. I doubt I can be any help here. Genuinely been a decent run, though, from my perspective, and I won't be gone. Just silent. Salud! | ||
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KwarK
United States41934 Posts
On October 26 2023 12:17 BlackJack wrote: There are plenty of people that support the right to abortion right up to the point of giving birth, including 39% of Democrats according to this PBS article. www.pbs.org. Late-term abortions are rare, according to the CDC source I googled something like 4,200 per year occur at greater than or equal to 21 weeks which is 1%~ of total abortions, but also not zero. The idea that nobody supports abortion for viable fetuses or that viable fetuses never get aborted is also fantasy. Abortion right to the point of giving birth doesn't involve killing the baby afterwards for the sake of completion. That's a c-section. You're purposefully misrepresenting support for willfully ending a pregnancy at full term as infanticide. What I don't get is how you yourself believe this to be true with sufficient conviction to be making a fool of yourself here. 39% of Democrats is a lot of people. Put 5 people in a room and there's a good chance that one of them will meet that criteria. Have you ever met one of these people who would watch a doctor put a healthy newborn baby in a blender and say "yeah, that's fine, that's just how abortion works"? I certainly haven't. If you haven't either then I really question how you can hold the doublethink of "39% of Democrats support this obscenely abhorrent babykilling practice" and "I've yet to meet anyone who says they support it". Reality so very clearly disagrees with your strawman that I can't understand how any intelligent individual could reasonably state it. If 39% of Democrats support legal late term abortions but none of them support infanticide then they must be different things. It doesn't even sound like it could be true so I have to believe that on some level you must know that what you've misunderstood somewhere along the line. The question then is why. If you know that Democrats aren't pro infanticide and the Democrats know that they're not pro infanticide then what possible motive could you have to go online and try to win an argument by pretending that they're pro infanticide to the people who know that they're not. How would that even work? What was your motivation in saying something so completely stupid? Genuinely curious. How did you think it would go? Was the hope that the pro-choice people would forget that they’re anti infanticide and just adopt your straw man? | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2593 Posts
On October 26 2023 14:56 KwarK wrote: Abortion right to the point of giving birth doesn't involve killing the baby afterwards for the sake of completion. That's a c-section. You're purposefully misrepresenting support for willfully ending a pregnancy at full term as infanticide. What I don't get is how you yourself believe this to be true with sufficient conviction to be making a fool of yourself here. 39% of Democrats is a lot of people. Put 5 people in a room and there's a good chance that one of them will meet that criteria. Have you ever met one of these people who would watch a doctor put a healthy newborn baby in a blender and say "yeah, that's fine, that's just how abortion works"? I certainly haven't. If you haven't either then I really question how you can hold the doublethink of "39% of Democrats support this obscenely abhorrent babykilling practice" and "I've yet to meet anyone who says they support it". Reality so very clearly disagrees with your strawman that I can't understand how any intelligent individual could reasonably state it. If 39% of Democrats support legal late term abortions but none of them support infanticide then they must be different things. It doesn't even sound like it could be true so I have to believe that on some level you must know that what you've misunderstood somewhere along the line. The question then is why. If you know that Democrats aren't pro infanticide and the Democrats know that they're not pro infanticide then what possible motive could you have to go online and try to win an argument by pretending that they're pro infanticide to the people who know that they're not. How would that even work? What was your motivation in saying something so completely stupid? Genuinely curious. How did you think it would go? Was the hope that the pro-choice people would forget that they’re anti infanticide and just adopt your straw man? While this argument about infanticide is hyperbole and made in bad faith, it is easy to see how the line between killing an infant and aborting a foetus that is almost fully developed can be blurred if you're trying to make a case that they are similar. Modern medical capability is such that many foetuses during the third trimester can survive in the intensive care unit if they are born prematurely, or have had a C-section conducted prematurely for whatever reason. Then if you make the logical leap that all those foetuses that were aborted that late would have a real chance of survival, then you can see how the equal sign is drawn between the two. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21334 Posts
If your saying that x% support late term abortions what are you actually asking? Are you asking if late term abortions should be allowed for any reason? Are you asking if they should be allowed for medical reasons (often abnormalities in the fetus)? Are you asking if they should be allowed to save the life of the mother? Because its real easy to ask option 3, get tons of people saying they agree and then construct is as option 1. The 'pro-life' group does this constantly. Take reasonable positions, like allowing early abortions before the fetus has developed, and banning later abortions unless for major medical reasons and construct it as pro-choice advocates wanting to kill babies as they are being born just because they no longer feel like it. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On October 26 2023 18:17 Gorsameth wrote: Lies, damned lies, and statistics If your saying that x% support late term abortions what are you actually asking? Are you asking if late term abortions should be allowed for any reason? Are you asking if they should be allowed for medical reasons (often abnormalities in the fetus)? Are you asking if they should be allowed to save the life of the mother? Because its real easy to ask option 3, get tons of people saying they agree and then construct is as option 1. The 'pro-life' group does this constantly. Take reasonable positions, like allowing early abortions before the fetus has developed, and banning later abortions unless for major medical reasons and construct it as pro-choice advocates wanting to kill babies as they are being born just because they no longer feel like it. If you asked people specifically if a 7-8 month old foetus should be able to be electrically aborted because the prospective mother changed her mind, I’d wager even most ardently pro-choice people are going to disapprove. If it were a case of an unviable foetus, or a high risk of death to the mother, I’d wager that would shift rather a lot. As with many things it’s a standard boogeystrawman, this idea that the floodgates are being opened to people wantonly having late term abortions frivolously. Honestly I can respect a rigorous pro-life position, certainly don’t agree but if one’s spiritual beliefs are such it’s kind of the default. But it’s disingenuous nonsense like this that frustrates me because it’s attempting to reframe the issue in a fundamentally dishonest manner | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10596 Posts
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ZerOCoolSC2
8924 Posts
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KwarK
United States41934 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + People who sympathize with this are sick, they're sick and they're evil and they're not going to be fixed. You're not going to make them into wonderful people one day. I didn't know you had flies in Iowa. I HATE FLIES! Now I'll get in trouble for saying that, cruelty to animals, no, it's true. You know I said the other day, wee I was at a place, it was a beautiful place, but they had like flies and I said "GET FLY PAPER" they said "they're not allowed to sell it anymore because of cruelty to animals" they actually said that but I don't know can you get fly paper it used to be great right but "you can't do that anymore sir it's cruelty". What the hell is going on with this country? | ||
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