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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On October 23 2023 15:57 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2023 15:26 Kyadytim wrote:On October 23 2023 09:53 Alakaslam wrote:On October 23 2023 03:33 KwarK wrote:
They’ve got far more in common than with the edges of their own parties. It’s purely partisan optics that prevent them working together. Agree. Generally consider myself Republican and yet I am ready to vote for Yang, should he run again, because all the parties are dysfunctional so we might as well have the printer just give the money back to us. Call me stupid or disinterested or conspiratorial or whatever you want based on my posting in the mafia forum, but that is where I am at. Low Intel voter who just wonders why we don't build good rail and help the poor in effective ways and also why we do not put any checks on depopulating. We are learning from Japan about currency stabilization going wrong. We are inflating the currency in some decently healthy ways, in other words. When will we learn that infrastructure projects are not wasteful spending when done right, and that raising children and supporting the conventional family structure is necessary to a functional society? Because Japan shows us the guide posts positively as well as negatively there. I speak not of Korea because my wife (for now?) grew up there and she is raising our daughter well. Personal experience that engenders some respect... If you're looking for effective ways to help the poor, Andrew Yang's UBI proposal is not it. His design was "$1,000/month flat UBI to everyone, paid for by eliminating all social welfare programs." The obvious flaw is he's taking the money currently being used to help the poor, and redistributing it to everyone. Even assuming that any savings in reduced bureaucracy allows that number to actually work, the poorest people receive more than $1,000 in various forms of aid every month. So everyone will see a $1,000/month increase in their income.... except the poor, who will see smaller increases in their monthly income the poorer they already are. Some of the people who are currently the worst off will see their monthly income actually go down, while prices are presumably going up because the spending power of the middle class went up. I mean the actual numbers and logistics of it probably need some refinement, I think UBI is a fundamentally pretty sound idea if it’s set at the level that the baseline is enough to live on, and if you want some luxuries then the incentive is there for you to work further.
UBI's are certainly better than a lot of proposals out there, cutting social programs to do it, not so much. You can make it universal still and just catch it on the backend with taxes.
But it's only a stop-gap, albeit one worth considering. One problem you bump into introducing it into a capitalist society is that it still gets gobbled up by the feedback loop of profit driven consumerism.
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Norway28751 Posts
I'd also like to see UBI implemented, but it needs a redistributive bent - funded by more top-heavy taxation (as well as the elimination or reduction of certain programs), not just the latter. Redistributing from the bottom to everyone strikes me as very ill conceived.
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I worked plenty with "the poor" in my life. I'm pretty sure even a UBI of 3-4k wouldn't help many of them. The issue that they are poor for many (probably most), isn't that they lack money (or the means to get it), it's that they are absolutely horrible at "using" it.
I'm not opposed to UBI, but thinking you can cut (most) social services to finance it is, very dangerous and stupid.
From my professional experience.. Plenty of people would be better served by having a guardian checking their monthly budgets rather than a blank check. Giving these people 1k or even 5k a month, wouldn't change shit. They would be driving nicer cars (or sadly buy more/better drugs) but still be dirt poor and in debt.
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On October 24 2023 04:51 Velr wrote:
I worked plenty with "the poor" in my life. I'm pretty sure even a UBI of 3-4k wouldn't help many of them. The issue that they are poor for many (probably most), isn't that they lack money (or the means to get it), it's that they are absolutely horrible at "using" it.
I'm not opposed to UBI, but thinking you can cut (most) social services to finance it is, very dangerous and stupid.
From my professional experience.. Plenty of people would be better served by having a guardian checking their monthly budgets rather than a blank check. Giving these people 1k or even 5k a month, wouldn't change shit. They would be driving nicer cars (or sadly buy more/better drugs) but still be dirt poor and in debt.
you're very much thinking about it from a Swiss point of view, where there is a decent social service, public healthcare, and in general enough of a safety net that there is generally something wrong with people who are at rock bottom. Whether it's drugs, drink, gambling, a mental illness, or a truly horrific string of bad luck, the truly poor in Switzerland didn't just lose their job and see their life spiral out of control, or get into horrendous debt due to hospital bills. And the US, unfortunately, has a lot of those.
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On October 23 2023 17:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Redistributing from the bottom to everyone strikes me as very ill conceived.
That's called 'the economy' and it seems to be working out alright for some people.
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On October 23 2023 15:57 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2023 15:26 Kyadytim wrote:On October 23 2023 09:53 Alakaslam wrote:On October 23 2023 03:33 KwarK wrote:
They’ve got far more in common than with the edges of their own parties. It’s purely partisan optics that prevent them working together. Agree. Generally consider myself Republican and yet I am ready to vote for Yang, should he run again, because all the parties are dysfunctional so we might as well have the printer just give the money back to us. Call me stupid or disinterested or conspiratorial or whatever you want based on my posting in the mafia forum, but that is where I am at. Low Intel voter who just wonders why we don't build good rail and help the poor in effective ways and also why we do not put any checks on depopulating. We are learning from Japan about currency stabilization going wrong. We are inflating the currency in some decently healthy ways, in other words. When will we learn that infrastructure projects are not wasteful spending when done right, and that raising children and supporting the conventional family structure is necessary to a functional society? Because Japan shows us the guide posts positively as well as negatively there. I speak not of Korea because my wife (for now?) grew up there and she is raising our daughter well. Personal experience that engenders some respect... If you're looking for effective ways to help the poor, Andrew Yang's UBI proposal is not it. His design was "$1,000/month flat UBI to everyone, paid for by eliminating all social welfare programs." The obvious flaw is he's taking the money currently being used to help the poor, and redistributing it to everyone. Even assuming that any savings in reduced bureaucracy allows that number to actually work, the poorest people receive more than $1,000 in various forms of aid every month. So everyone will see a $1,000/month increase in their income.... except the poor, who will see smaller increases in their monthly income the poorer they already are. Some of the people who are currently the worst off will see their monthly income actually go down, while prices are presumably going up because the spending power of the middle class went up. I mean the actual numbers and logistics of it probably need some refinement, I think UBI is a fundamentally pretty sound idea if it’s set at the level that the baseline is enough to live on, and if you want some luxuries then the incentive is there for you to work further. Oh, I absolutely support UBI. I just think Andrew Yang's specific proposal is so bad that there's no level of refinement that makes it better. I subsidizes luxuries for the middle class by squeezing the lower class.
On October 24 2023 05:23 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2023 04:51 Velr wrote:
I worked plenty with "the poor" in my life. I'm pretty sure even a UBI of 3-4k wouldn't help many of them. The issue that they are poor for many (probably most), isn't that they lack money (or the means to get it), it's that they are absolutely horrible at "using" it.
I'm not opposed to UBI, but thinking you can cut (most) social services to finance it is, very dangerous and stupid.
From my professional experience.. Plenty of people would be better served by having a guardian checking their monthly budgets rather than a blank check. Giving these people 1k or even 5k a month, wouldn't change shit. They would be driving nicer cars (or sadly buy more/better drugs) but still be dirt poor and in debt. you're very much thinking about it from a Swiss point of view, where there is a decent social service, public healthcare, and in general enough of a safety net that there is generally something wrong with people who are at rock bottom. Whether it's drugs, drink, gambling, a mental illness, or a truly horrific string of bad luck, the truly poor in Switzerland didn't just lose their job and see their life spiral out of control, or get into horrendous debt due to hospital bills. And the US, unfortunately, has a lot of those. I want to add on to this that in the US, being poor is expensive. Poor people end up paying more for the same value as middle class people, because they can't afford larger up-front costs that save money in the long term. Whether that's buying 24 packs of toilet paper instead of 6 packs or buying cheaper shoes and clothing that doesn't last nearly as long as more expensive options, it adds up. If anyone wants to read a little more about it, I would recommend this article.
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On October 24 2023 04:51 Velr wrote:
I worked plenty with "the poor" in my life. I'm pretty sure even a UBI of 3-4k wouldn't help many of them. The issue that they are poor for many (probably most), isn't that they lack money (or the means to get it), it's that they are absolutely horrible at "using" it.
I'm not opposed to UBI, but thinking you can cut (most) social services to finance it is, very dangerous and stupid.
From my professional experience.. Plenty of people would be better served by having a guardian checking their monthly budgets rather than a blank check. Giving these people 1k or even 5k a month, wouldn't change shit. They would be driving nicer cars (or sadly buy more/better drugs) but still be dirt poor and in debt.
You're implying that being poor is a consequence of poor life choices. This is not generally true (even if it is true for some). It is impossible to make good life choices when all you have are bad options.
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Tlaib officially going off the deep end. Good grief what a mess. Hope she is primaried
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On October 25 2023 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:
Tlaib officially going off the deep end. Good grief what a mess. Hope she is primaried
Some of the "progressives" turned out to be abysmal. Their crew in Boston completely embarrassed themselves, got voted out. Fraud, corruption, ignoring their duties - Boston isn't the only place either. The voters are starting to think that the experiment failed.
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On October 25 2023 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:
Tlaib officially going off the deep end. Good grief what a mess. Hope she is primaried
Post a link lol
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On October 25 2023 02:15 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:
Tlaib officially going off the deep end. Good grief what a mess. Hope she is primaried Post a link lol
All I see on Twitter is her calling for a ceasefire in pretty strong terms and accusing the government of not protecting Palestinian Americans.
It all seems pretty reasonable to me.
Marjorie Taylor Greene has brought some kind of resolution against her but I can't really understand why.
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Northern Ireland26337 Posts
On October 25 2023 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:
Tlaib officially going off the deep end. Good grief what a mess. Hope she is primaried
What is this referencing?
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On October 25 2023 02:29 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 02:15 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On October 25 2023 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:
Tlaib officially going off the deep end. Good grief what a mess. Hope she is primaried Post a link lol All I see on Twitter is her calling for a ceasefire in pretty strong terms and accusing the government of not protecting Palestinian Americans. It all seems pretty reasonable to me. Marjorie Taylor Greene has brought some kind of resolution against her but I can't really understand why.
Maybe the resolution would do something if there were a speaker of the house... maybe that's what MTG should be resolute about.
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On October 25 2023 02:15 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:
Tlaib officially going off the deep end. Good grief what a mess. Hope she is primaried Post a link lol
https://tlaib.house.gov/posts/tlaib-statement-on-al-ahli-baptist-hospital
“Media outlets and third-party analysts have raised doubts about claims and evidence offered by both Israel and the Gaza Ministry of Health, and I agree with the United Nations that an independent investigation is necessary. I cannot uncritically accept Israel’s denials of responsibility as fact, especially in light of confirmation from the World Health Organization that Israel has bombed numerous medical facilities in Gaza and reports from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society of ongoing threats from the Israeli military to evacuate hospitals.
“Both the Israeli and United States governments have long, documented histories of misleading the public about wars and war crimes—like last year’s Israeli military assassination of Shireen Abu Akleh and the false claims of weapons of mass destruction that led our country into the Iraq War—and cannot clear themselves of responsibility without an independent international investigation. This debate should not distract us from the urgent need for a ceasefire to save innocent civilian lives.”
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Leaning anti-Israel/skeptical of Israel but I don't see anything super controversial there. Israel is the most western aligned nation in the region, so by default they're the "good guys".
Foreign policy isn't something I know anything about, so I'm in the leave it to Biden camp.
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What's so crazy about it? Even the people who trust and believe isreal should support an independent investigation of the facts to support Israel's story.
Calling for a ceasefire isn't a bad thing and having multiple viewpoints is what a healthy democracy is all about.
Also consider the people in her district that voted her in, she and omar are not going anywhere.
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Since when is "we shouldn't just blindly believe but try to independently verify" considered "going off the deep end"?
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On October 25 2023 04:10 Sermokala wrote:
What's so crazy about it? Even the people who trust and believe isreal should support an independent investigation of the facts to support Israel's story.
Calling for a ceasefire isn't a bad thing and having multiple viewpoints is what a healthy democracy is all about.
Also consider the people in her district that voted her in, she and omar are not going anywhere.
1) Gaslighting with "both sides" regarding the hospital situation as if it is some unknowable situation. The hospital is still there. Its total dog shit for her to be saying this crap.
2) "Gaza ministry of health" gives the impression this info is coming from someone other than Hamas. She is being intentionally misleading by pretending Hamas is a legitimate, trustworthy source of information. They are the ones who killed 1300 and lied about a hospital.
3) "The US has misled the public before, so who knows"
4) "we need to protect civilian lives" while Hamas is literally instructing their inhabitants death is better than leaving the land.
It is so remarkably skewed and gives an enormous amount of undue credit to Hamas as if we have any reason to trust a single thing they say.
Hamas's stated goal right now is for 0 Jews to be alive anywhere in the world. Hamas is not advocating for peace or any form of coexistence with Israel. Tlaib is trying to protect Hamas by pretending a ceasefire is a real concept. Its not. Hamas has reiterated their goals numerous times and recently. This is pure disinformation and "bothsides" gaslighting.
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On October 25 2023 03:57 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 02:15 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On October 25 2023 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:
Tlaib officially going off the deep end. Good grief what a mess. Hope she is primaried Post a link lol https://tlaib.house.gov/posts/tlaib-statement-on-al-ahli-baptist-hospitalShow nested quote +“Media outlets and third-party analysts have raised doubts about claims and evidence offered by both Israel and the Gaza Ministry of Health, and I agree with the United Nations that an independent investigation is necessary. I cannot uncritically accept Israel’s denials of responsibility as fact, especially in light of confirmation from the World Health Organization that Israel has bombed numerous medical facilities in Gaza and reports from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society of ongoing threats from the Israeli military to evacuate hospitals.
“Both the Israeli and United States governments have long, documented histories of misleading the public about wars and war crimes—like last year’s Israeli military assassination of Shireen Abu Akleh and the false claims of weapons of mass destruction that led our country into the Iraq War—and cannot clear themselves of responsibility without an independent international investigation. This debate should not distract us from the urgent need for a ceasefire to save innocent civilian lives.”
Bloody hell if that's what you think is off the deep end you should see what's happening in UK local politics right now.
*I would assume the rest of Europe is going through similar issues, large communities of muslims showing very vociferous support to Palestine and lots of anti-semitic attacks everywhere, although I haven't really looked so I can't be sure.
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EPT
