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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
United States41471 Posts
On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine. It doesn't. Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method. The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit. The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation. There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either. It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate. As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire.
1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace.
2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable.
3) The illusion had value. Words matter.
4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid.
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None of that surprises me and that makes me sad.
Sooo, yeah... as to where Trump might have gotten this terrible advice? Turns out one place was Senate leadership of the Democrats
Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer advised President Trump to declare Jerusalem as the "undivided" capital of Israel ahead of Trump's expected announcement on the matter this week, the New York Democrat told The Weekly Standard on Tuesday.
Schumer himself told JTA that he supported the U.S. moving its embassy to Jerusalem, and criticized Trump over his "indecisiveness" on the issue.
“President Trump’s recent comments suggest his indecisiveness on the embassy’s relocation,” Schumer told the news agency. “As someone who strongly believes that Jerusalem is the undivided capital of Israel, I am calling for the US Embassy in Israel to be relocated to Jerusalem."
Source
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On December 06 2017 12:09 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 12:06 Gahlo wrote:On December 06 2017 11:59 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 07:23 Gorsameth wrote:On December 06 2017 07:02 Introvert wrote:On December 06 2017 06:51 Plansix wrote:
This is why people don't like Jeff Flake. Not because he's too principled, no. But because he's willing to jettison his principles to make himself feel good. If you are as conservative as Flake claims to be, how on this earth could you rationalize, not just staying home, but actively supporting someone who is opposed to you? "For the good of the country?" bs. Where is his righteous indignation at people outside his party? Later Flake, your name suits you. Because the other side is a fucking child molester... Child is not really an apt descriptor. When people say child, the first thing that comes to mind are not 16-17 year olds. In fact, I doubt it comes to mind for most people. I'm not a Moore fan (not by any coherent stretch), but let's also not start calling 16-17 year olds children. If somebody is a minor, they're a child to me. So, you're telling me, someone who can sign up for the Armed Services go and die in a foreign country is a child. Or, someone who has their driver's license and works 35 hours a week and goes to college (yes, you can do all those things before you're 18) is a child. Dude, stop letting some politicians do your own thinking (e.g. the "legal age limit" of 18).
Well I don't think people under 18 should be able to sign up for the military, so how dem nuts?
On December 06 2017 12:46 mozoku wrote:
Roy Moore is a scumbag, I wouldn't vote for him, and the Republican Party does whatever it has to do get votes (as would the Democrats in a comparable situation). They're all scumbags and I don't deny that.
But I'm also aware that 16 is legal in all of the countries (excluding UK) that the liberal posters here are from (or at least believe is a superior place for those in the US) so I'm getting a hell of a laugh out of the situation myself.
Gotta play by the rules of the game. While I don't drink in general, the fact that other countries have lower drinking ages doesn't change the fact that it's 21 here.
On December 06 2017 17:59 GreenHorizons wrote:None of that surprises me and that makes me sad. Sooo, yeah... as to where Trump might have gotten this terrible advice? Turns out one place was Senate leadership of the DemocratsShow nested quote +Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer advised President Trump to declare Jerusalem as the "undivided" capital of Israel ahead of Trump's expected announcement on the matter this week, the New York Democrat told The Weekly Standard on Tuesday.
Schumer himself told JTA that he supported the U.S. moving its embassy to Jerusalem, and criticized Trump over his "indecisiveness" on the issue.
“President Trump’s recent comments suggest his indecisiveness on the embassy’s relocation,” Schumer told the news agency. “As someone who strongly believes that Jerusalem is the undivided capital of Israel, I am calling for the US Embassy in Israel to be relocated to Jerusalem." Source
To translate Schumer into Boston: Hey.... do it.
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Naming your resistance movement after a children's fantasy book where the universe is stacked against the villain and everything magically works out, seems like a good recipe for achieving anything.
A common sentiment that I agree with is that the "resistance" spends far too much time relating political reality via Game of Thrones comparisons, and is far too invested in narratives where Russia is some nefarious presence and Trump is an evil overlord who presents a singular problem.
Trump is not Voldemort, and while it is nice that there is a handful of people in the CFPB presumably ineffectively resisting the administration, the real problem is that all the power is concentrated in the hands of those that don't have the public's best interests at heart. Trump is just one element in this. In the HP universe you could reasonably say that Voldemort was like 90% of the problem, but if you remove Trump then the GOP is still devoted to gutting the welfare state, endangering the environment and redistributing wealth upwards.
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On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine.
there's not much that can be settled, not without substantial expense that nobody's willing to pay.
moving the embassy is just bad press and accomplishes nothing.
it's just a move to fire up certain silly people.
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apparently doug jones has picked up that petty bullying works with the crowd he needs. it’s funny to watch in action. sad, but funny.
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On December 06 2017 21:48 brian wrote:
apparently doug jones has picked up that petty bullying works with the crowd he needs. it’s funny to watch in action. sad, but funny.
Roll Tide? 
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On December 06 2017 14:25 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 12:06 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 06 2017 12:02 Danglars wrote:On December 06 2017 11:57 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 06 2017 11:49 Danglars wrote:On December 06 2017 11:31 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 06 2017 10:09 Danglars wrote:On December 06 2017 09:49 Tachion wrote:On December 06 2017 09:35 Danglars wrote:On December 06 2017 08:30 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
i'd have to find it again, but his history is pretty clear. Even in the MSNBC interview, when asked about a ban at 20 weeks, he flatly rejects it.
Even if he has recently backed off then no, I still wouldn't believe him. Though if he wants to win or keep his seat he might be so inclined to moderate himself. You nailed it. The issue is believing or trusting that he changed his mind, or made a massive error judging the mother's interest over the baby's. Hillary Clinton would be president today if politics meant every retraction was just as believed as the first major statement. Also hurting Jones's case is the Democratic party's recent activism on abortion, having included in the 2016 platform for the first time a call to end the Hyde Amendment, meaning Alabama taxpayer dollars will be used to fund abortions. With the way Republicans have been rallying around defunding Planned Parenthood, I bet people in Alabama already think federal funds were going towards abortions. Money's fungible, and $500bil a year to the organization making 320,000 abortions a year, or one every 97 seconds will give anyone pause. Except that organization also spends most of their money on things that prevent abortions from being needed like contraceptives. If you hate abortions defunding planned parenthood is about the stupidest thing you could do, but it will continue to be a rallying cry. The largest abortion provider in the US will always get flak. Other organizations not so dedicated to aborting babies can offer contraceptives and better counseling. They even turn away expecting mothers wanting ultrasounds. It’s been clear from the beginning that they affirm only one choice. When those organizations actually exist you let me know and we can give federal funds to them instead. Those organizations could offer contraceptives and sex education, but instead they promote abstinence and then wonder why there are so many unwanted pregnancies. https://lozierinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/NATIONAL_PAGE1_cli-adf_pp_map_us_sept.jpgWe can start with those. More when the money gets redistributed more productively. Sure thing. Republicans already control all three branches and just made a budget, but did it include anything about this hugely important issue that a huge proportion of voters care about? I do recall reading that they managed to throw in some tidbit about life starting at contraception though. Gotta keep milking that golden goose instead of doing anything about it. Sorry, are we going to always duck to the legislative process every time you're proved wrong about "those organizations already exist[ing]." Because we can just stop here if it's going to be a race from subject to subject.
I was wrong about them existing if that is what you want to hear. The linked site on the picture appears to be a Republican think tank so I'm not sure why the Republicans won't give them money. I'm genuinely curious why planned parent hood has cornered all federal funding on contraceptives if this other organization exists.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
So we got the TIME Man of the Year award chosen. Kind of wish washy but fitting to this year’s events I suppose.
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While browsing some software dude blog, i saw I link to an old artical from a libertarian about minimum wage, I ound the points that he raised very interesting, specially the social aspect for teens minorities ghettos
Here's the link: http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2004/tle283-20040808-04.html
What opinion o you guys have on this subject?
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re: time
acceptable; but I don't like the trend towards picking large groups of people. you could have an entirely separate designation for that.
re: tmg's article.
passable work, raises some valid points (which I knew already of course as i've studied lots of things and it's typical libertarian stuff); and some things that don't hold up well.
his E-classification system is flawed, he puts consequentialism in E-2, even though it is expressly an ethical philosophy and thus should be in E-1. thus his definition of E-1 is itself flawed.
If I were in charge i'd be doing a more thoroug hjob on how many minimum wage laws work and address problems; but I'm not in charge and never will be.
is there some particular part of it you want more comment/discussion on?
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Sweden33719 Posts
... (which I knew already of course as i've studied lots of things and it's typical libertarian stuff)...
Of course.
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On December 06 2017 22:19 LegalLord wrote:So we got the TIME Man of the Year award chosen. Kind of wish washy but fitting to this year’s events I suppose.
It’s probably deserved. Hollywood and DC are diminished. The movement isn’t highly politically aligned in today’s tribalism where everything is politically aligned. The first accuser inspires others to speak out to add their voice instead of stay silent. Rich and powerful men are being brought down. I’m probably more supportive given how much I’ve disagreed with prior picks.
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United Kingdom8380 Posts
On December 06 2017 23:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +... (which I knew already of course as i've studied lots of things and it's typical libertarian stuff)... Of course.
A phrase that could almost come straight out of Trump's mouth.
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On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine. It doesn't. Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method. The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit. The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation. There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either. It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate. As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid.
I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin.
Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less.
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On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine. It doesn't. Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method. The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit. The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation. There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either. It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate. As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less.
if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made.
also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain.
i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything.
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On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine. It doesn't. Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method. The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit. The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation. There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either. It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate. As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything.
Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces.
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EPT
