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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine. It doesn't. Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method. The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit. The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation. There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either. It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate. As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces.
Good way to put it. I deeply support Israel in this rare instance simply because Palestinians are being ridiculous by not gg'ing out. They are just floating CC's and hoping Israel disconnects. We need to move on at some point. I think the ethical thing would be for Palestinians to have the land, but I think the correct decision is to give it all to Israel.
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On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine. It doesn't. Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method. The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit. The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation. There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either. It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate. As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces.
that doesn't mean that doing something else WILL work, or evne has a chance at working.
i'm fully aware of the situation. as are they; they're not willing to concede and tkae less; and this action doesn't change the calculus on whether they' db willing to do so at all. it's also clear that they don't have to concede, seeing as they haven't despite being in the losing and losing more position for decades. it might be beneficial for them in some larger sense to do so, but they're clearly unwilling to (and would probably ruin any politican who tried).
remember, the argument is about the US action on the embassy; not what palestine should or should not do.
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On December 07 2017 00:50 Danglars wrote:
I saw that. It's pretty awful
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This Jerusalem matter also lets Trump right the wrong of Obama allowing that UN resolution to pass. Overall, a rare fantastic idea from the president of the United States.
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On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine. It doesn't. Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method. The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit. The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation. There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either. It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate. As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces.
Yeah...
If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'?
Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak?
People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality.
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On December 07 2017 00:58 Nevuk wrote:I saw that. It's pretty awful
How better can that creep say he’s owed it and he’ll get away with it? #MeToo vs this guy that wants the ethics committee to to placate everybody for now, and wait for forgetfulness to take over.
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On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine. It doesn't. Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method. The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit. The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation. There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either. It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate. As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality.
Also just pretty fucked up. The casualness with which people openly support ethnic cleansing, "because ethnic cleansing is what we do" is pretty disturbing.
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On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine. It doesn't. Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method. The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit. The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation. There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either. It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate. As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality.
The only reason Palestinians have any land at all is the fact that it would be bad PR to kick em out. Not a great comparison.
Also "bleak" is a tremendous understatement.
In your eyes, what non-handout path do they have? What will allow Palestinians to beat Israel? In my eyes, no path actually even exists.
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On December 07 2017 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine. It doesn't. Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method. The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit. The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation. There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either. It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate. As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality. The only reason Palestinians have any land at all is the fact that it would be bad PR to kick em out. Not a great comparison. Also "bleak" is a tremendous understatement. In your eyes, what non-handout path do they have? What will allow Palestinians to beat Israel? In my eyes, no path actually even exists.
The question is do you support circumstantial (outside the specific ethnicity) ethnic cleansing or is it dependent on the ethnicity being cleansed?
TIL the poli thread, like the Senate, has bipartisan support of ethnic cleansing...
User was warned for this post
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On December 07 2017 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine. It doesn't. Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method. The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit. The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation. There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either. It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate. As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality. The only reason Palestinians have any land at all is the fact that it would be bad PR to kick em out. Not a great comparison.
What comparison?
My point is that people will fight tooth and nail for their country when invaded and occupied. And from their (and others) perspective that's definitely what happened.
Being able to exterminate/displace them at any time has no baring on this what so ever and to say they should just give up ignores the entirety of human history.
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On December 07 2017 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine. It doesn't. Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method. The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit. The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation. There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either. It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate. As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality. The only reason Palestinians have any land at all is the fact that it would be bad PR to kick em out. Not a great comparison. Also "bleak" is a tremendous understatement. In your eyes, what non-handout path do they have? What will allow Palestinians to beat Israel? In my eyes, no path actually even exists. The question is do you support circumstantial ethnic cleansing or is it dependent on the ethnicity being cleansed?
I suppose I am assuming we can relocate rather than shoot them. I wouldn't want to shoot them all. I support this issue being wrapped up. We've got one guy who has been on the brink of death for 10 rounds while the other guy is eating a turkey sandwich while watching TV. Palestinians ain't winning. If they ain't winning, let's move on.
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On December 07 2017 01:17 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 07 2017 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't.
Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method.
The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit.
The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation.
There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either.
It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate.
As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality. The only reason Palestinians have any land at all is the fact that it would be bad PR to kick em out. Not a great comparison. Also "bleak" is a tremendous understatement. In your eyes, what non-handout path do they have? What will allow Palestinians to beat Israel? In my eyes, no path actually even exists. The question is do you support circumstantial ethnic cleansing or is it dependent on the ethnicity being cleansed? I suppose I am assuming we can relocate rather than shoot them. I wouldn't want to shoot them all. I support this issue being wrapped up. We've got one guy who has been on the brink of death for 10 rounds while the other guy is eating a turkey sandwich while watching TV. Palestinians ain't winning. If they ain't winning, let's move on.
If tomorrow a guy with a gun shows up to your house and tells you to take a hike and live somewhere else you sure as hell aren't saying "ok" and move on.
How do you not get that people do not accept forced relocation from what they consider to be their rightful land.
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On December 07 2017 01:20 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 01:17 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 07 2017 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:
[quote]
The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke.
Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality. The only reason Palestinians have any land at all is the fact that it would be bad PR to kick em out. Not a great comparison. Also "bleak" is a tremendous understatement. In your eyes, what non-handout path do they have? What will allow Palestinians to beat Israel? In my eyes, no path actually even exists. The question is do you support circumstantial ethnic cleansing or is it dependent on the ethnicity being cleansed? I suppose I am assuming we can relocate rather than shoot them. I wouldn't want to shoot them all. I support this issue being wrapped up. We've got one guy who has been on the brink of death for 10 rounds while the other guy is eating a turkey sandwich while watching TV. Palestinians ain't winning. If they ain't winning, let's move on. If tomorrow a guy with a gun shows up to your house and tells you to take a hike and live somewhere else you sure as hell aren't saying "ok" and move on. How do you not get that people do not accept forced relocation from what they consider to be their rightful land.
If 500 guys with guns did and I was explicitly shown no one would defend me, you're damn right I would say ok and move on. Are you saying you wouldn't? You would die. Dying doesn't do a lot of good. Patting myself on the back door defending my land, then being in the dirt an hour later, isn't a great idea.
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On December 07 2017 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 01:20 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 01:17 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 07 2017 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace.
2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable.
3) The illusion had value. Words matter.
4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality. The only reason Palestinians have any land at all is the fact that it would be bad PR to kick em out. Not a great comparison. Also "bleak" is a tremendous understatement. In your eyes, what non-handout path do they have? What will allow Palestinians to beat Israel? In my eyes, no path actually even exists. The question is do you support circumstantial ethnic cleansing or is it dependent on the ethnicity being cleansed? I suppose I am assuming we can relocate rather than shoot them. I wouldn't want to shoot them all. I support this issue being wrapped up. We've got one guy who has been on the brink of death for 10 rounds while the other guy is eating a turkey sandwich while watching TV. Palestinians ain't winning. If they ain't winning, let's move on. If tomorrow a guy with a gun shows up to your house and tells you to take a hike and live somewhere else you sure as hell aren't saying "ok" and move on. How do you not get that people do not accept forced relocation from what they consider to be their rightful land. If 500 guys with guns did and I was explicitly shown no one would defend me, you're damn right I would say ok and move on. Are you saying you wouldn't? You would die. Dying doesn't do a lot of good. Patting myself on the back door defending my land, then being in the dirt an hour later, isn't a great idea.
I think a lot of people would say ok, but I don't think would be the end of the matter. The guns won't be there 100% of the time.
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On December 07 2017 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 01:20 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 01:17 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 07 2017 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace.
2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable.
3) The illusion had value. Words matter.
4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality. The only reason Palestinians have any land at all is the fact that it would be bad PR to kick em out. Not a great comparison. Also "bleak" is a tremendous understatement. In your eyes, what non-handout path do they have? What will allow Palestinians to beat Israel? In my eyes, no path actually even exists. The question is do you support circumstantial ethnic cleansing or is it dependent on the ethnicity being cleansed? I suppose I am assuming we can relocate rather than shoot them. I wouldn't want to shoot them all. I support this issue being wrapped up. We've got one guy who has been on the brink of death for 10 rounds while the other guy is eating a turkey sandwich while watching TV. Palestinians ain't winning. If they ain't winning, let's move on. If tomorrow a guy with a gun shows up to your house and tells you to take a hike and live somewhere else you sure as hell aren't saying "ok" and move on. How do you not get that people do not accept forced relocation from what they consider to be their rightful land. If 500 guys with guns did and I was explicitly shown no one would defend me, you're damn right I would say ok and move on. Are you saying you wouldn't? You would die. Dying doesn't do a lot of good. Patting myself on the back door defending my land, then being in the dirt an hour later, isn't a great idea.
Pretty sure we established we'd all be speaking the queens english if we were counting on moodoh to execute the ambush.
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On December 07 2017 01:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 01:20 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 01:17 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 07 2017 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace.
2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable.
3) The illusion had value. Words matter.
4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality. The only reason Palestinians have any land at all is the fact that it would be bad PR to kick em out. Not a great comparison. Also "bleak" is a tremendous understatement. In your eyes, what non-handout path do they have? What will allow Palestinians to beat Israel? In my eyes, no path actually even exists. The question is do you support circumstantial ethnic cleansing or is it dependent on the ethnicity being cleansed? I suppose I am assuming we can relocate rather than shoot them. I wouldn't want to shoot them all. I support this issue being wrapped up. We've got one guy who has been on the brink of death for 10 rounds while the other guy is eating a turkey sandwich while watching TV. Palestinians ain't winning. If they ain't winning, let's move on. If tomorrow a guy with a gun shows up to your house and tells you to take a hike and live somewhere else you sure as hell aren't saying "ok" and move on. How do you not get that people do not accept forced relocation from what they consider to be their rightful land. If 500 guys with guns did and I was explicitly shown no one would defend me, you're damn right I would say ok and move on. Are you saying you wouldn't? You would die. Dying doesn't do a lot of good. Patting myself on the back door defending my land, then being in the dirt an hour later, isn't a great idea.
No I wouldn't. I'm also mostly a coward.
But the entirety of human history is full of people fighting displacement and occupation. So while I don't see myself dying for a non-existent chance at freedom I can understand why people act that way.
Edit: And as GH says. The US exists as a country because people wanting to be free in what they see as their home. If everyone thought as you then the US would, with luck, be a tiny bit of land somewhere in Peru.
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On December 07 2017 01:17 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 07 2017 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't.
Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method.
The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit.
The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation.
There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either.
It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate.
As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality. The only reason Palestinians have any land at all is the fact that it would be bad PR to kick em out. Not a great comparison. Also "bleak" is a tremendous understatement. In your eyes, what non-handout path do they have? What will allow Palestinians to beat Israel? In my eyes, no path actually even exists. The question is do you support circumstantial ethnic cleansing or is it dependent on the ethnicity being cleansed? I suppose I am assuming we can relocate rather than shoot them. I wouldn't want to shoot them all. I support this issue being wrapped up. We've got one guy who has been on the brink of death for 10 rounds while the other guy is eating a turkey sandwich while watching TV. Palestinians ain't winning. If they ain't winning, let's move on.
so, you're supporting ethnic cleansing? cuz it kinda sounds like you are.
ethnic cleansing includes forced relocation to clear an ethnicity out of an area.
what makes oyu think there's a viable path to having the issue wrapped up? (other than one that's incredibly immoral of course)
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On December 07 2017 01:31 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 01:17 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 07 2017 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:
[quote]
The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke.
Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality. The only reason Palestinians have any land at all is the fact that it would be bad PR to kick em out. Not a great comparison. Also "bleak" is a tremendous understatement. In your eyes, what non-handout path do they have? What will allow Palestinians to beat Israel? In my eyes, no path actually even exists. The question is do you support circumstantial ethnic cleansing or is it dependent on the ethnicity being cleansed? I suppose I am assuming we can relocate rather than shoot them. I wouldn't want to shoot them all. I support this issue being wrapped up. We've got one guy who has been on the brink of death for 10 rounds while the other guy is eating a turkey sandwich while watching TV. Palestinians ain't winning. If they ain't winning, let's move on. so, you're supporting ethnic cleansing? cuz it kinda sounds like you are. ethnic cleansing includes forced relocation to clear an ethnicity out of an area. what makes oyu think there's a viable path to having the issue wrapped up? (other than one that's incredibly immoral of course)
Well if I had a magic wand, I would definitely be relocating Israel rather than Palestine. My impression is that more suffering is created by the tension of Israel than the total suffering that would be caused by relocating Israel.
It all comes down to me thinking Israel and Palestine coexisting is just stupid. It won't happen. They need to be separated. I'd rather give Israel some useless part of American soil, but that ain't happening.
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On December 07 2017 01:38 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 01:31 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 01:17 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 07 2017 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace.
2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable.
3) The illusion had value. Words matter.
4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality. The only reason Palestinians have any land at all is the fact that it would be bad PR to kick em out. Not a great comparison. Also "bleak" is a tremendous understatement. In your eyes, what non-handout path do they have? What will allow Palestinians to beat Israel? In my eyes, no path actually even exists. The question is do you support circumstantial ethnic cleansing or is it dependent on the ethnicity being cleansed? I suppose I am assuming we can relocate rather than shoot them. I wouldn't want to shoot them all. I support this issue being wrapped up. We've got one guy who has been on the brink of death for 10 rounds while the other guy is eating a turkey sandwich while watching TV. Palestinians ain't winning. If they ain't winning, let's move on. so, you're supporting ethnic cleansing? cuz it kinda sounds like you are. ethnic cleansing includes forced relocation to clear an ethnicity out of an area. what makes oyu think there's a viable path to having the issue wrapped up? (other than one that's incredibly immoral of course) Well if I had a magic wand, I would definitely be relocating Israel rather than Palestine. My impression is that more suffering is created by the tension of Israel than the total suffering that would be caused by relocating Israel. It all comes down to me thinking Israel and Palestine coexisting is just stupid. It won't happen. They need to be separated. I'd rather give Israel some useless part of American soil, but that ain't happening.
ok, so to be clear, you are supporting ethnic cleansing in this instance?
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On December 07 2017 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 01:12 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2017 00:59 Gorsameth wrote:On December 07 2017 00:44 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 07 2017 00:35 zlefin wrote:On December 07 2017 00:17 ticklishmusic wrote:On December 06 2017 16:30 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 16:18 Wegandi wrote:On December 06 2017 16:06 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2017 15:21 mozoku wrote:
I'm generally somewhat pro-Israel but I don't see how the US unilaterally settling a dispute helps anything here. I could be persuaded though. I'm not ultra-informed on Israel-Palestine. It doesn't. Israel is built on top of Palestine and is currently in the process of ethnic cleansing, albeit slowly through forceful displacement with bulldozers and armed escorts for settlements, rather than the usual mass graves method. The Palestinians engaged in an asymmetrical guerrilla response leading to escalation by both sides and generally bad shit. The US, as the global hegemon and the only country with any leverage over Israel at all (due to the huge annual cash payments that the US makes for some reason), was tasked with brokering some kind of peace deal between the two sides and to give the appearance of fairness deliberately avoided acknowledging de facto Israel control over Jerusalem. Doing so helped maintain the commitment to a peaceful resolution to the situation. There's absolutely no upside to breaking that. It doesn't materially impact what's actually happening out there in any way. Nothing is improved for anyone. All it does is lets the world know that the US is not interested in a good faith negotiation between the two sides. The situation for Israel isn't improved because the US was already not especially interested in good faith negotiations, but now there is really no reason for Palestinians to come to the table either. It's the senseless smashing of a US brokered truce and I'm pretty certain that some kind of Arab backlash is Trump's intended result. He wants to cry "look how much they hate us" so he's out to drum up some hate. As with everything else Trump touches there's a damn good reason things were the way they were and it's not because everyone running the country pre-2017 was an idiot. The US has a great many carefully planned and calculated policy positions which should not be overturned based upon to the whims of whatever tweets he happens to be exposed to. The US has been trying to "broker" this peace for how long now? 30+ years. It takes a lot of hubris and wishful thinking to believe the same thing we've been doing for decades has a decent shot at working. Fact is, the conditions aren't that different than the late 80s early 90s. The area has traded PLO for Hamas, and the situation in Iraq has destabilized the region. Pretending that the stance that Tel Aviv is the capital and not Jerusalem is going to broker peace is pure folly. You can make the argument that we've went from .5% to 0%, but honestly, this is blowing smoke. Also, for the record, I think the US should have nothing to do in the region. All we've done is created more danger for ourselves, lost treasure and blood, and for what? Because Israel is a "democracy"? Lol. Please. Give me my tax-money back and the thousands of American's lives lost for "hegemony" and Empire. 1) It's not been trying especially hard to broker the peace. 2) Even had it been 30 years of trying hard to broker peace I still don't see why giving up on peace is desirable. 3) The illusion had value. Words matter. 4) The argument that negotiation has failed so provocation is the obvious new strategy doesn't seem valid. I'd look at it almost as saying "okay our current approach isn't working so we need to do try something different". The status quo is that the situation will just keep sliding downhill bit by bit - there will be repeated flare-ups which result in a few hundred more dead, a few thousand more displaced and the West Bank/ Gaza Strip getting even shittier than they were before. We can keep hoping that while we keep things in a delicate balance that only occasionally slips we can find the perfect solution, but that's what we've been doing for the last couple decades. It's sort of looking like we're clinging to a false hope. The solution that everyone wants died with Yitzhak Rabin. Maybe Palestine needs a bit of a kick in the ass, and a symbolic recognition of Jerusalem is that. Their negotiating position about what they want as part of a two state solution might be right, but there's no way Israel is going to give it to them. The US will never really strongarm Israel either. Maybe the Palestinians will, for now, have to accept a little less. if that were the actual case made, i'd be willing to consider it; but that's not the case being made. also, trying something different that still won't work isn't really a plan. it's just inflaming things for no gain. i'ts been clear for ages that palestine is demanding things they will never be able to get; they're understandably unwilling to accept less. pressure will not change that, especially not a midl inflammatory thing like this which doesn't actually change the situation on the ground much at all. a tiny "kick in the ass" like this is nothing compared to what else has happened there, so it won't chnage anything. Trump is a blithering idiot and Kushner probably couldn't make peace between two girls in middle school. That doesn't change the fact that what we're doing in the Middle East, especially Israel and Palestine, just isn't working. Palestine is in a shit situation, and it doesn't matter what moral, ethical or legal claim or case they have to what they demand, they will need to concede and take less because they've got a 2 7 offsuit and Israel has pocket aces. Yeah... If tomorrow Russia by some miracle obliterated the US army and took over the east coast, do you think the US should sign a peace treaty giving away the east coast rather then fight to the last for their home because 'its not gonna happen anyway'? Should the varies European resistances have just given up during WW2 when it looked bleak? People have fought against impossible odds for their home throughout history. Telling the Palestinians to just give up is completely devoid of reality. The only reason Palestinians have any land at all is the fact that it would be bad PR to kick em out. Not a great comparison. Also "bleak" is a tremendous understatement. In your eyes, what non-handout path do they have? What will allow Palestinians to beat Israel? In my eyes, no path actually even exists. The question is do you support circumstantial (outside the specific ethnicity) ethnic cleansing or is it dependent on the ethnicity being cleansed? TIL the poli thread, like the Senate, has bipartisan support of ethnic cleansing...
No one is supporting ethnic cleansing. That's ridiculous hyperbole. Under the current status quo, the Palestinians are being pushed into a smaller and shittier area each day. How do you expect that to get better? Israel to just unilaterally give up a shit load of land and sing kumbayah?
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EPT
