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A friend, scholar, pastor of mine wanted me to read over a letter he sent to an Atheist friend of his and he posted it on his blog and I wanted to throw it on here because, well, it makes you think. Yes I write about religion a lot and I am indeed an Atheist. My posts seem narrow minded because I'm usually responding to a narrow minded post. Trust me when I say that I am very open minded. I go to churches now just to hear what religious people have to say. I am a frequent of Churches and Temples, and I still don't see proof of the existence of God in any shape or form.
Now if you were to ask me if I would like there to be a God, and that there was something after death to look forward to, then I would have to say yes. That doesn't mean I want the God of any certain religion...if someone could convince me of reincarnation I would love to follow that. If only there were a religion based on the idea that if we live a just life, one that doesn't affect humanity in a negative way and would allow us to live on after death (in some way, shape or form) then I would happily follow it.
Unfortunately or fortunately (I haven't figured that out yet.) I still believe we have one life, and that every second should be cherished. Some people take this idea and philosophy and use it in negative effects. They use it as an excuse to do horrific things and justify it as not having to answer to a higher being after they die. Just as on the opposite side of the fence people do horrific things in the name of God.
Which one is more just? Neither. I think first priority should be being human. I don't commit crimes against humanity for one reason...I am part of humanity. Every person is part of humanity, as opposed to some people being Christian or Muslim or Hindu. I really don't think it is a hard concept to figure out.
That being said, I post this letter...
Is there a God?
Yes and no.
"There" (the adverb denoting place and location) is no God. For God to be God, in the sense of an eternal, self-existent being responsible for all that we call existence, the one thing he cannot be is "there." God is of necessity invisible. There is a place called Timbuktu, there is planet called Neptune, there is a cup of coffee sitting next to me, but in that sense, there is no God. That would be to place God within the universe as another object. That is what he cannot be. Unless he were to choose to in someone way join creation. (This is what Christians believe concerning the Incarnation of Christ, but that is beyond this discussion).
Can I prove that God exists? I don't think so; at least not in the way I might prove that I have three cats living in my house. I’m confident that God can prove his own existence, but he doesn’t seem to be inclined to do so. At least not at the present moment. Though, without trying to persuade you to believe me, I do believe that God will, in his own time, erase all doubt of his reality from the mind of every intelligent being. But, as C.S. Lewis said, "When the author walks onto the stage, the play is over."
So "there" is no God.
But I believe God is.
Why?
Certainly not because I can necessarily make an ironclad argument for his existence, but because I know that when I try my best to not believe in God, I know I am lying to myself.
Do I want there to be a God? Perhaps. But I can tell you what I want even more than the existence of God, and that is this: the Truth. And when I have experimented with thinking God out of existence, I know I have lied to myself. Is this a persuasive argument? Probably not for you. But it is for me. Perhaps the most persuasive. I know there is a God because I know there is a God. Circular? Yes. But I can’t break out of the circle and remain true to myself. I can’t unknow what I know and be true to myself.
That’s not much of argument for believing in God, but I wanted to say it anyway. (Remember, I’m speaking from my heart .)
On to other things.
An atheist doesn’t believe in God. What doesn’t an atheist believe in? God. Let us be absolutely clear on this point. What is it that an atheist is convinced doesn’t exist? GOD. Hmm? Most atheists I have had conversations with seem to think about God nearly as much as I do. Most people don’t believe in lots of things: Unicorns, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster among them. But they don’t bother to identify themselves as a-bigfootists, etc. God is because God is. Even atheists know what God is. God is utterly unique. A class unto himself. This is the one thing God must be...or we wouldn’t even have a word for it. Unicorns may be a fable, but there are horses and animals with horns. Bigfoot may not be in the woods, but there are large mammals in the woods. Nessie may not be in the loch, but there are strange creatures in the sea. But God is utterly unique -- not a variation on a theme. To insist that one does not believe in God is an absurdity. (Strong words, but yes, I believe that.) By the very use of the word you have acknowledged the reality of this utterly unique being. And so, as G.K Chesterton quipped, "Without God there would be no atheists." I’m reminded of the recent debate at Oxford between Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath and how Dawkins exclaimed during the debate, "My God!" Yes, the crowd laughed.
Here is a question. And, really, a serious one. Why is there something instead of nothing? We are here after all. Why? For a long time the standard atheistic reply was something like, "Well, why not? That’s just the way it is." In itself that seems pretty weak, but then something happened that made that argument no longer tenable. The discovery of the Big Bang. We now know that 13.7 billion years ago something happened that began time, space and matter. Before that there was...well, nothing; nothing in the most literal sense of the word. There was not even a "before" there was just n o t h i n g. And out of nothing...bang...the beginning of time, space, matter. Why?
Here is another question. What evidence would you accept as proof for the existence of God? What would you require of God to be persuaded of his existence? He would have to do, what? Speak to you? (I’ll get to that in a moment). Appear to you? But then of course you could doubt the validity of this experience. Perhaps it’s an hallucination. Or how would you know it’s not an advanced alien with what appears, but only appears, to be divine attributes? How could God prove himself to you? Is there anything you cannot doubt? You know, it’s possible to doubt even your own existence. So is one an atheist simply because it is impossible for one to believe that God is, no matter what evidence is presented? What if God did appear to you and you were convinced that God existed? How would you convince another human of God’s reality? An interesting question to ponder.
Alright, back to bigfoot. Suppose you knew me to be a generally truthful person. And suppose I told you that there was a bigfoot living in the woods behind my house. And suppose that several other generally reliable people told you the same thing. And suppose they said that if you were to go investigate the woods yourself, that although they could not guarantee that you would see bigfoot, they nevertheless stated there was a high probability that you would see bigfoot for yourself...wouldn’t you at least bother to go have a look? In other words, these generally truthful people were not merely asking you to take their word for it, but were asking you to investigate the situation yourself. Wouldn’t you do it?
I would like to tell you about the woods where I think you might possibly find God.
Prayer.
Pray to God and see if anything happens. Ask God if he is real, and if so, to in some fashion let you know. Ask sincerely, even though you will of course ask skeptically. What have you to lose?
You at least know that there are intelligent, sincere people who claim to have met God in the woods of prayer. Perhaps they are mistaken, but why not examine the evidence yourself?
Is it scary to meet bigfoot in the woods? I can only imagine. Is it scary to encounter God in reality? I have found it so (and many other things). The implications are enormous. But when I told you that what I want more than anything is the Truth, I told the truth. Of course I may be an evil alien out to deceive you, who knows? For everything can be doubted. We all make decisions based on faith all day long.
I will not directly try to convince you that God is. Even though I have raised these questions, I think it is beyond my ability to convince anyone of God’s existence. And neither do I really feel it is my job to do so. But I will point out the woods where many people claim to have met God. And some of them were what you would call very reliable people.
Prayer.
I think it’s worth a look.
These are not patronizing words. I respect you. I respect you as a fellow human being, a genuine seeker and as a remarkably intelligent man. I am simply sharing with you my experience with God. And I do so in hope that you might have a similar experience. It’s not really an argument I am offering (though I have made some weak points and raised a few questions). What I am offering is the possibility of an experience. No guarantees, but the possibility of (as unlikely as it may seem!) -- experiencing God.
I wish you all the best.
Your friend
 
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There is VERY little substance, and no argument being made. And your friend is an idiot..
We can all agree that our world is immensely complex, but how can any religion, or any logical man believe and conclude that a vastly more Complex and less likely being or phenomena, exists to create it.
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Unfortunately you are missing the point of his letter. This isn't a letter trying to prove god, therefore no argument needs to be made. He is simply writing and trying to convey his mindset. Anyone to take any side of the line could be considered an "idiot". It's naive to say there isn't a god, just as much as it is naive to say there is a god. Simple as that.
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Define arguments?
There is full of arguments in that letter. Whether or not they seem like good arguments to you is a different thing entirely.
Religious people often use alot of metaphors and this was no different
I honestly don't know what to believe at all anymore. I call myself an agnostic and I leave the question whether or not god exists open
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I believe he confuses the multiple potential meanings of the word atheist. A = without, and theism = god belief. Without god belief. Not necessarily a denial of the possibility of god. Or to put it another way, absence of belief is not belief in absence of god.
Most atheists, in my experience are soft position atheists who don't deny the possibility of god (though they tend to find the existence of god very unlikely), they just don't actively believe in god. In other words, atheism as it is typically practiced is synonymous with agnosticism.
Yep, a semantics issue, but important to think about in these kinds of discussions, because my feeling is that the audience he is addressing is much smaller than the group that typically identify as atheists.
Other than that, I admire him for being truthful about the fact that he can't prove anything.
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I would also like to say I am skeptical of his thinking. See, first of all, saying the bigbang automatically implies a maker is kind of iffy to me... I don't see why it implies that at all. I don't see at all why things can't "just happen." I don't think he made a case for his point of view at all, in that regard.
If things require a maker, who makes the maker? If the maker doesn't require a maker, why does anything else require a maker?
The other problem I see is that if we follow his reasoning all the way to the end, and finally conclude there is a God, all of a sudden I think we will be getting into the bible and talking about doing X Y and Z and not doing A B C (in other words, now we are all of a sudden sucked into some Christian sect, and no longer talking philosophically about the existence or nonexistence of God. If there is a God, all of a sudden we all become Christians.
This last point is an assumption on my part, as I assume he is a Christian. He may not be, and in that case I withdraw the above paragraph (and must state my further respect for the integrity of the writer - as the existence of god does not itself prove Christianity in particular is correct - something many Christians seem to overlook.)
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Well in that case the word atheist is misused because if you don't have god belief that is like saying there is no god obviously
What I dislike about these discussions is that everything becomes about semantics and you can't really argue about it.
It all boils down to either believeing in god or not believeing.
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Some people need comfort in dealing with the unknown, and some don't. To those that don't need it, all of this sounds like the most absurd thing in the world, but in reality it's just a quality of life thing for the individual. We all have our ways of dealing.
I don't see any other reason for any of it.
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Just another little part of the discussion...
This letter is exactly as advertised: A letter to an atheist. It's not my thoughts on atheism, but what I wanted to say to an atheist. I have thoughts about atheism I don't always say to an atheist.
For example:
Atheism has a moral quality to it. This is why the Scriptures count unbelief as a sin. As Blaise Pascal said, "The heart has its reasons or which reason knows nothing." This is as true of unbelief as it is of faith.
This is why most atheists are atheists of convenience and not thorough atheists. For example: If you are going to be an atheist you have to throw out any expectation of justice. I agree with Dostoevsky who placed these words in the mouth of the atheistic Ivan Karamazov: "Without God all things are permissible."
I realize that there are atheists who try to be build a case for transcendent justice apart from God, but I've always found these attempts very unconvincing. Without a transcendent Lawgiver you cannot have a transcendent Law.
Sometimes you can raise this question with an atheist (or a relativist): "What behavior would you condemn?" And when they say, "torturing babies" or whatever, keep pressing the issue with the question, "Why?" Eventually one finds there must be an appeal to a transcendent Lawgiver.
The concept of Justice is one of the fingerprints of God found within Creation.
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I think you're looking at it too black/white Skew
I mean, many people become religious when faced with an terminal disease or something similar and you're not really that hardcore and tough when death is around the corner
so those arguments that religious people need faith because they are weak are kind of silly to me because we are all weak when it comes down to it
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On February 02 2008 03:17 JensOfSweden wrote:
I think you're looking at it too black/white Skew
I mean, many people become religious when faced with an terminal disease or something similar and you're not really that hardcore and tough when death is around the corner
so those arguments that religious people need faith because they are weak are kind of silly to me because we are all weak when it comes down to it
"When faced with a terminal disease" is exactly that: the unknown. They will die, and they come to the realization of it, and it's the most terrifying thing they've ever fathomed, so they turn to god or whatever else.
I doubt you can find me a situation that I can't explain where someone turns to a personal god.
edit: And I'm not sure what the thing about hardcore is all about. Yes, everyone is afraid of death. I am, and I've already admitted I'm going to believe in god before I die for relief (I'll 100% trick myself and block out the logical side).
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On the issue of morality, I don't see a reason for there to be an absolute foundation.
This is the thing with Western thinkers, they seem to demand that there be some absolute foundation that we can build everything else off of in a logically consistent way. Many atheists (many TL.net folks also) also have this desire (and the Christian writing here certainly has that desire). People want a model that can consistently be applied to everything. I think it is better to be open to the possibility of contradiction, or multiple foundations, or shifting patterns in the foundation, so that nothing we say can ever be absolutely true, but rather contingent on other things..... like infinite rotating mirrors, constantly reflecting different images depending on how we look at it all.
I don't need for "thou shalt not kill" to be inscribed in the foundation of existence. I don't need for two parallel lines to never meet. I don't need absolute morality or an absolute lawgiver (sociologically and philosophically I really find the writer's use of that metaphor to be very interesting - likewise when people refer to this "outside god" as a male.)
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On February 02 2008 03:34 Skew wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2008 03:17 JensOfSweden wrote:
I think you're looking at it too black/white Skew
I mean, many people become religious when faced with an terminal disease or something similar and you're not really that hardcore and tough when death is around the corner
so those arguments that religious people need faith because they are weak are kind of silly to me because we are all weak when it comes down to it
"When faced with a terminal disease" is exactly that: the unknown. They will die, and they come to the realization of it, and it's the most terrifying thing they've ever fathomed, so they turn to god or whatever else. I doubt you can find me a situation that I can't explain where someone turns to a personal god. edit: And I'm not sure what the thing about hardcore is all about. Yes, everyone is afraid of death. I am, and I've already admitted I'm going to believe in god before I die for relief (I'll 100% trick myself and block out the logical side).
Oh alright then....
yeah death is like something you don't think about really.
The most painful thing is when young people who really don't want to are dying and they just break down knowing nothing they do will prevent it frmo happening
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United States22883 Posts
By praying "meaningfully", you're essentially willing yourself to believe and at that point you're looking for a meaning. You can find a meaning anywhere if you over-analyze or hope for anything long enough. My question to your friend is - why stop at Christianity? If it's worth our time to "try" his religion and see if it works, why not "try" other religions and see if they work better? Why not try Buddhism, Islam or Scientology?
The people that go in and take personality tests at Scientology centers generally seem to convince themselves that those beliefs are correct. How is his theory for Christianity any different?
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United States22883 Posts
On February 02 2008 03:49 JensOfSweden wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2008 03:34 Skew wrote:On February 02 2008 03:17 JensOfSweden wrote:
I think you're looking at it too black/white Skew
I mean, many people become religious when faced with an terminal disease or something similar and you're not really that hardcore and tough when death is around the corner
so those arguments that religious people need faith because they are weak are kind of silly to me because we are all weak when it comes down to it
"When faced with a terminal disease" is exactly that: the unknown. They will die, and they come to the realization of it, and it's the most terrifying thing they've ever fathomed, so they turn to god or whatever else. I doubt you can find me a situation that I can't explain where someone turns to a personal god. edit: And I'm not sure what the thing about hardcore is all about. Yes, everyone is afraid of death. I am, and I've already admitted I'm going to believe in god before I die for relief (I'll 100% trick myself and block out the logical side). Oh alright then.... yeah death is like something you don't think about really. The most painful thing is when young people who really don't want to are dying and they just break down knowing nothing they do will prevent it frmo happening
At the same time, many people cope with death and unfortunate circumstances very well. We fear a lack of choice, but often it is comforting when it happens. The human mind is extremely powerful and confusing.
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On February 02 2008 03:16 suresh0t wrote:
Sometimes you can raise this question with an atheist (or a relativist): "What behavior would you condemn?" And when they say, "torturing babies" or whatever, keep pressing the issue with the question, "Why?" Eventually one finds there must be an appeal to a transcendent Lawgiver.
It is simply wrong becouse you are harming somebody you produce pain. Do you really need any transcend being to tell you that pain/suffering is bad?
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As for the letter you can short it:
1)I emotionally feel that God exist.
2)God exist becouse it exist.
3)People that say that they don't emotionally feel that God exist, are lying. I just know it like emotionally.
4)How can you be sure that God does not exist if you didn't try brain washing into believing in him?
"Here is another question. What evidence would you accept as proof for the existence of God? "
1)He could logically explain why he create this mess instead of actually design something better assuming that he care about his creation as Christians claim.
2)He could let me create my own reality.
I could probably go lower then those but I expect the best of God.
"Is there anything you cannot doubt? You know, it’s possible to doubt even your own existence."
Nothing is certain therfore making things up is as valid as science.
btw. even if everybody would feel emotionally about God that would not be prove of his existence.
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On February 02 2008 09:31 Polis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2008 03:16 suresh0t wrote:
Sometimes you can raise this question with an atheist (or a relativist): "What behavior would you condemn?" And when they say, "torturing babies" or whatever, keep pressing the issue with the question, "Why?" Eventually one finds there must be an appeal to a transcendent Lawgiver. It is simply wrong becouse you are harming somebody you produce pain. Do you really need any transcend being to tell you that pain/suffering is bad?
That isn't any sort of logic at all. Why shouldn't I produce pain in suffering in someone else? "Duh" is not an answer.
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
i was actually rather excited to read this since im an atheist but it was rather unimpressive.
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The only thing this made me think about is how dumb this guy is. "I know there is a God because I know there is a God." It must be true, because he's saying it from his heart!! He says he wants the truth, yet this is the extent of his thinking.
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EPT
