LoveTV Starleague: Brood War 3.0 - Page 17
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
Are any VODs going to be put up for the LoveTV Bo5 between ZerO and HiyA? Are they just in the archive of a snipealot stream? (I would be happy with that if I can find it just like that, I just wasn't sure) | ||
Probemicro
3708 Posts
On October 15 2014 17:46 Antisocialmunky wrote: The only real issue with a BW Revival is there's no new blood because no one can compete with the ex-progamers. :\ That's really the main thing killing the scene, there doesn't seem to be anyway to break in because the level of mechanics is so crazy high. the amateurs are not exposed to the prolonged Kespa regimented training the ex-pros used to have, so its obvious barely any of them can reach the same level of proficiency. Still even the average Fish player is nothing to be scoffed at, they are good enough to hold their own and even take a few games off expros. | ||
broodwar2.0
Niue229 Posts
sad thing is these amateurs are being bullied/flamed by fans of streamers, claiming they streamhack maphack vs ex-pros' on many occasions some highlyskileld amateurs just stopped playing after that sonic promised 'courage 2.0'' but there is no sign of that happening soon so thats also not helping im seeing way less amateurs in the top 50/100 fish ladder nowardays | ||
prech
United States2948 Posts
On October 15 2014 18:18 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: I'm not sure this is the place to ask but I didn't see a thread on it. Are any VODs going to be put up for the LoveTV Bo5 between ZerO and HiyA? Are they just in the archive of a snipealot stream? (I would be happy with that if I can find it just like that, I just wasn't sure) Take a look through the past one-two day's snipe archives (snipes1,2,3,4) and both players FPVODs should be there. I just took a quick glance and ZerO's FPV of first 2 games are here. Game 3/etc are in the next file after it: http://www.twitch.tv/snipealot2/b/578034380 Speaking of Bo5 showmatches, it looks like LoveTV just hosted another show match between Killer and Mind. I imagine our man vhvx777 will be posting it in Recommended snipealot games soon... If that's any indication of maps for the Starleague: Fighting Spirit Neo Electric Circuit New Sniper Ridge Python | ||
Masheyoon
United States781 Posts
On October 09 2014 16:42 Pharaphobia wrote: EffOrt retired because he want to spend as much time with his mother before military, unfortunately that bad thing happen (rest in piece) and I think i can safely say that the LAST thing in his mind atm is StarCraft. Rumors, about SoulKey are gone as he said himself many times in stream he likes to play SC2. I love the idea of LoveTV with big prizemoney and there should be cups like that for more oldschool games (original quake 3,WarCraft 3, DotA 1 or CS1.6), but it's nothing else than few shots and I can safely say that no revival will happen. All of the guys are playing it because of nostalgy,memories and fact that they can meet with some of the retired players (TT1,HayprO etc...) It is not a hate,regardless Im already pissed of those guys who are going around koreans SC2 streams and constantly spamming come back to BW!... BW era is done its more like good old game to play (:... Just accept the fact even if smthing like that happen u never get a constant profitable models to attract sponsors in EU and NA Well, I'm going to chime in with my opinion (as I've done since the BW pro scene sank): I can safely say that it's currently not possible to tell whether or not a full revival will happen (in South Korea). Pro BW did not die because of a lack of general interest and/or declining viewership. (Proleague Revival - Huge Crowd Turnouts, Rising Viewership: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=121552&db=issue&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd= SK Planet Proleague: Yongsan Stadium at Full Capacity: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=121998&db=Global 10-11 Proleague Finals Match Ranks 1st in Viewership: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257268) (EDIT: Stupid firefox flags those links as "badware" when they are harmless.) Pro BW died for two reasons: 1) the match-fixing scandal had sponsors worried about associating themselves with a tainted product, and 2) SC2's release along with Blizzard doing their best to kill BW. Sponsors ignored the fact that people were as interested as ever in watching professional BW, but left the BW scene anyway in favor of a new, shiny product simply because they thought it would be a safer investment. With all of that said, what makes these things happen is money. The sponsors bring in money for the product and people bring in money for the sponsors. Without people, sponsors would have nothing to gain, and people have shown that they are still interested in watching BW. The crowd turnout for the previous SSL was great, ex BW pros are making a good enough living by simply streaming BW, and this prize pool is enormous especially for a "dead game". That's enough to get a lot of people's hopes up. If sponsors would only wise up, they would see that there is still money to be made. | ||
vhvvx777
Russian Federation541 Posts
On October 15 2014 18:18 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: I'm not sure this is the place to ask but I didn't see a thread on it. Are any VODs going to be put up for the LoveTV Bo5 between ZerO and HiyA? Are they just in the archive of a snipealot stream? (I would be happy with that if I can find it just like that, I just wasn't sure) Sense to place the 3 five-minute games? | ||
prech
United States2948 Posts
On October 16 2014 04:12 Masheyoon wrote: Pro BW died for two reasons: 1) the match-fixing scandal had sponsors worried about associating themselves with a tainted product, and 2) SC2's release along with Blizzard doing their best to kill BW. Sponsors ignored the fact that people were as interested as ever in watching professional BW, but left the BW scene anyway in favor of a new, shiny product simply because they thought it would be a safer investment. With all of that said, what makes these things happen is money. The sponsors bring in money for the product and people bring in money for the sponsors. Without people, sponsors would have nothing to gain, and people have shown that they are still interested in watching BW. The crowd turnout for the previous SSL was great, ex BW pros are making a good enough living by simply streaming BW, and this prize pool is enormous especially for a "dead game". That's enough to get a lot of people's hopes up. If sponsors would only wise up, they would see that there is still money to be made. Very interesting links. Well said, very much agree. Beyond those Proleague anecdotes, it's worth noting the Afreeca viewership of BW exceeds every other game (from what I can tell), except LoL. Although LoL gets something like 2-10x the audience, BW is still a dominant force, far outpacing the likes of DotA and SC2. Individually, looking at the highest echelon of streamers, the top 100 rankings, which is largely made up of eaters/singers/scantily-clad women, we have Bisu, Larva, and Pusan right there in the mix. Then, following close behind, we have Shuttle, leto, Zeus, Sea, hero, Mong, PianO, ZerO, sAviOr, jat.tv, LoveTV, Movie, Sonic, and Killer -- all in the top 500. Cumulatively they attract a very sizable audience, so hopefully sponsors will recognize this as they strive to target that elusive young consumer demographic | ||
sabas123
Netherlands3121 Posts
On October 16 2014 04:12 Masheyoon wrote: Well, I'm going to chime in with my opinion (as I've done since the BW pro scene sank): I can safely say that it's currently not possible to tell whether or not a full revival will happen (in South Korea). Pro BW did not die because of a lack of general interest and/or declining viewership. (Proleague Revival - Huge Crowd Turnouts, Rising Viewership: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=121552&db=issue&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd= SK Planet Proleague: Yongsan Stadium at Full Capacity: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=121998&db=Global 10-11 Proleague Finals Match Ranks 1st in Viewership: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257268) (EDIT: Stupid firefox flags those links as "badware" when they are harmless.) Pro BW died for two reasons: 1) the match-fixing scandal had sponsors worried about associating themselves with a tainted product, and 2) SC2's release along with Blizzard doing their best to kill BW. Sponsors ignored the fact that people were as interested as ever in watching professional BW, but left the BW scene anyway in favor of a new, shiny product simply because they thought it would be a safer investment. With all of that said, what makes these things happen is money. The sponsors bring in money for the product and people bring in money for the sponsors. Without people, sponsors would have nothing to gain, and people have shown that they are still interested in watching BW. The crowd turnout for the previous SSL was great, ex BW pros are making a good enough living by simply streaming BW, and this prize pool is enormous especially for a "dead game". That's enough to get a lot of people's hopes up. If sponsors would only wise up, they would see that there is still money to be made. I remember reading somewhere on teamliquid about that one of the higher ups had a personal vendetta with broodwar and closed it down on mbc game I think even thou it was still profitable | ||
miercat
394 Posts
On October 16 2014 04:12 Masheyoon wrote: Well, I'm going to chime in with my opinion (as I've done since the BW pro scene sank): I can safely say that it's currently not possible to tell whether or not a full revival will happen (in South Korea). Pro BW did not die because of a lack of general interest and/or declining viewership. (Proleague Revival - Huge Crowd Turnouts, Rising Viewership: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=121552&db=issue&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd= SK Planet Proleague: Yongsan Stadium at Full Capacity: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=121998&db=Global 10-11 Proleague Finals Match Ranks 1st in Viewership: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257268) (EDIT: Stupid firefox flags those links as "badware" when they are harmless.) Pro BW died for two reasons: 1) the match-fixing scandal had sponsors worried about associating themselves with a tainted product, and 2) SC2's release along with Blizzard doing their best to kill BW. Sponsors ignored the fact that people were as interested as ever in watching professional BW, but left the BW scene anyway in favor of a new, shiny product simply because they thought it would be a safer investment. With all of that said, what makes these things happen is money. The sponsors bring in money for the product and people bring in money for the sponsors. Without people, sponsors would have nothing to gain, and people have shown that they are still interested in watching BW. The crowd turnout for the previous SSL was great, ex BW pros are making a good enough living by simply streaming BW, and this prize pool is enormous especially for a "dead game". That's enough to get a lot of people's hopes up. If sponsors would only wise up, they would see that there is still money to be made. Excellent post. Perfect understanding of the situation. A while ago I had the intention of making a post in this thread, containing the exact same main points - but it is good that I don't have to anymore. Judging by the posts here and elsewhere, there are people who lack basic knowledge/understanding concerning BWs potential viability as an esport. That post should help them. | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
On October 16 2014 04:12 Masheyoon wrote: Well, I'm going to chime in with my opinion (as I've done since the BW pro scene sank): I can safely say that it's currently not possible to tell whether or not a full revival will happen (in South Korea). Pro BW did not die because of a lack of general interest and/or declining viewership. (Proleague Revival - Huge Crowd Turnouts, Rising Viewership: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=121552&db=issue&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd= SK Planet Proleague: Yongsan Stadium at Full Capacity: http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=121998&db=Global 10-11 Proleague Finals Match Ranks 1st in Viewership: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257268) (EDIT: Stupid firefox flags those links as "badware" when they are harmless.) Pro BW died for two reasons: 1) the match-fixing scandal had sponsors worried about associating themselves with a tainted product, and 2) SC2's release along with Blizzard doing their best to kill BW. Sponsors ignored the fact that people were as interested as ever in watching professional BW, but left the BW scene anyway in favor of a new, shiny product simply because they thought it would be a safer investment. With all of that said, what makes these things happen is money. The sponsors bring in money for the product and people bring in money for the sponsors. Without people, sponsors would have nothing to gain, and people have shown that they are still interested in watching BW. The crowd turnout for the previous SSL was great, ex BW pros are making a good enough living by simply streaming BW, and this prize pool is enormous especially for a "dead game". That's enough to get a lot of people's hopes up. If sponsors would only wise up, they would see that there is still money to be made. I think you're cherry picking data a little here. First of all you're picking only BW's premier events which happen but a few times a year. That's the time when everyone comes out including old fans. But what's important to sponsors is consistent viewership throughout the season, how many people are actually following the league? That's important because unless you're KT or SKT your players and your team aren't making it that far all that often. The teams we saw disbanding that really set off the gloom in the community were the less glamorous teams, naturally. Unlike other big sports where even crappy teams have the support of their home towns and manage to fill at least half a stadium every other week, normal proleague games were trying to fill a small room with maybe 40 people and if the teams weren't popular it wouldn't be full. Top onto that that it is in one place and the schedule for matches was incredibly frequent, and you might actually get a different perspective. Of course for foreigners who just watch for the top players, it seems insanely popular, but it was only those top players who could draw audiences. Not to defend Pharaphobia. Just saying that while a BW proscene was probably still maintainable, I'm not so sure it was pulling the numbers year round and sponsors had a lot of reasons to duck out including the difficulties with negotiations between KeSPA and Blizzard, the match fixing scandal (I think actually kind of negligible, but it certainly wasn't good; just another motivator in the other direction). For those who didn't duck out, they probably didn't fight all that hard against Blizzard's esports plan, LoL and other big games, which it's hard to say didn't work. We can laugh all we want that SC2 is not adored by every Korean, but they still pull foreign $$$ which is just in general good for South Korea's economy. The Koreans are poor, that's why you don't even have to pay to see a finals Better to take money from people who have too much, like American teenagers and college students. As for BW being on Korean TV regularly again (my arbitrary standard for what a revival would probably look like), I'm not holding my breath but I don't think it's totally impossible. More in the case of Sonic getting studio space, getting TV casters, and the like. It's really hard to look at that and say it has no potential. It's also kinda hard to look at all the names that are around right now and not think that there aren't a lot of new ones, and there are a whole lot that were the proscene still going on, probably would have vanished into the ether. Like what's the next generation of pro players actually supposed to be? All the names that seem unfamiliar are only unfamiliar because they were B teamers. I wrote a lot of garbage here. In the end I think it's actually kinda hard to get a good synthesis of information. Sonic keeps investing more and more and you think he must have a reason, but being totally honest it looks kinda bad long term. These guys aren't gonna stream BW from their parents' houses forever lol. They're just spending time with their family before military, it seems in a lot of cases. | ||
Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
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HyralGambit
2439 Posts
On October 16 2014 14:52 Lunareste wrote: I was browsing TL while on break from work and saw LoveTV streaming, did any matches from this happen yet? No those games were from LSL2, not the upcoming LSL3 LoL world championship is almost over, so expect news very soon. | ||
Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On October 16 2014 07:33 Chef wrote: I think you're cherry picking data a little here. First of all you're picking only BW's premier events which happen but a few times a year. That's the time when everyone comes out including old fans. But what's important to sponsors is consistent viewership throughout the season, how many people are actually following the league? That's important because unless you're KT or SKT your players and your team aren't making it that far all that often. The teams we saw disbanding that really set off the gloom in the community were the less glamorous teams, naturally. Unlike other big sports where even crappy teams have the support of their home towns and manage to fill at least half a stadium every other week, normal proleague games were trying to fill a small room with maybe 40 people and if the teams weren't popular it wouldn't be full. Top onto that that it is in one place and the schedule for matches was incredibly frequent, and you might actually get a different perspective. Of course for foreigners who just watch for the top players, it seems insanely popular, but it was only those top players who could draw audiences. Not to defend Pharaphobia. Just saying that while a BW proscene was probably still maintainable, I'm not so sure it was pulling the numbers year round and sponsors had a lot of reasons to duck out including the difficulties with negotiations between KeSPA and Blizzard, the match fixing scandal (I think actually kind of negligible, but it certainly wasn't good; just another motivator in the other direction). For those who didn't duck out, they probably didn't fight all that hard against Blizzard's esports plan, LoL and other big games, which it's hard to say didn't work. We can laugh all we want that SC2 is not adored by every Korean, but they still pull foreign $$$ which is just in general good for South Korea's economy. The Koreans are poor, that's why you don't even have to pay to see a finals Better to take money from people who have too much, like American teenagers and college students. As for BW being on Korean TV regularly again (my arbitrary standard for what a revival would probably look like), I'm not holding my breath but I don't think it's totally impossible. More in the case of Sonic getting studio space, getting TV casters, and the like. It's really hard to look at that and say it has no potential. It's also kinda hard to look at all the names that are around right now and not think that there aren't a lot of new ones, and there are a whole lot that were the proscene still going on, probably would have vanished into the ether. Like what's the next generation of pro players actually supposed to be? All the names that seem unfamiliar are only unfamiliar because they were B teamers. I wrote a lot of garbage here. In the end I think it's actually kinda hard to get a good synthesis of information. Sonic keeps investing more and more and you think he must have a reason, but being totally honest it looks kinda bad long term. These guys aren't gonna stream BW from their parents' houses forever lol. They're just spending time with their family before military, it seems in a lot of cases. While it is true, that the post you are referring to had some cherrypicking in it, i think your playing down the importance of Blizzards agenda, to replace Starcraft with Starcraft2 in Korea. I think that, let's say if there hadn't been any trouble at all, Bw would have stayed commercially interesting in the eyes of potential sponsors and associations. Not only Kespa but perhaps also GomTV. Of course the scene would have shrunk with the release of Starcraft 2 and even more with the upcoming prominence of Lol and other games as it did, but as long as the market is still viable, i can't see why Kespa for instance wouldn't still run OSL's, given of a smaller scale. I think that the recent developments, spearheaded by Sonic, but luckily branching out and getting bigger and more professional indicate, that a worthwile market was given up hasty and under external influence, to say the least. I can see Broodwar getting big and possibly even televised (to pick up your criterium) again, if the foundations will be made middle-term to sustained growth, meaning to incorporate new players, give them decent training facities and exposure. As you mentioned, some of these ex pros are not going to stream forver, but that's the nature of every gaming scene. With the current hype in Korea and the fan and playerbase it is not our of line to see growth on the horizon. To sum it up, i think that the labeling of "BW 2.0" "3.0" is a bit over the top, but recent development's have shown, that there is potential to crawl back to a stable as somewhat of a niche "Esport"-title. What puzzles me more is, why the foreign scene is so lackluster to pick up any impulse that comes from korea. In the last year or so, the playerbase has been diminishing quite a bit i think. Now im aware of issues regarding accesibilty and attraction level of Broodwar, but it doesn't explain to me why the remaining scene has become rather passive as of late. | ||
Probemicro
3708 Posts
In Korea there's still a sizable audience that still follows BW thanks to its huge fanaticism and popularity in the past there, people like sonic are willing to sponsor tourneys due to their love of the game | ||
Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On October 16 2014 01:33 prech wrote: Take a look through the past one-two day's snipe archives (snipes1,2,3,4) and both players FPVODs should be there. I just took a quick glance and ZerO's FPV of first 2 games are here. Game 3/etc are in the next file after it: http://www.twitch.tv/snipealot2/b/578034380 Ahh, damn, I just realised why I didn't find anything recent when I checked - it defaults to Highlights and I didn't notice! It seems to be at 1 hour 32. Where's the sense (or decency) in unnecessarily spoiling that all games are short? (If you meant something else by your comment, I have no idea what) | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
i think your playing down the importance of Blizzards agenda, to replace Starcraft with Starcraft2 in Korea. If I did, I didn't mean to, because I also think that was the primary factor. But I think far from antagonizing Blizzard, sponsors were interested in the global market Blizzard was trying to create for esports, and of course that market was not going to include Brood War. So it's like your options are fighting a company who basically holds all the cards and can just say 'you're not allowed to use our games anymore,' or you can cooperate and probably get a lot of money too and give at least some of your workers somewhere to go. It's pretty hard to stand by Brood War in that case And of course it doesn't feel fair to people who really liked Brood War, and it seems like the callous destruction of something that had true value, but to Blizzard it was a product and to everyone else it was just a video game. As for why the foreign scene is not lively in light of Sonic's efforts... I dunno. I've gotta say the Brood War matches today feel like watching people play a game, and maybe it's hard to understand what I mean but that's not what watching an OSL or MSL match felt like. Among other factors like it being really annoying to set up Brood War, installing it on modern operating systems is not always easy, lots of monitors refuse to display at 4:3 resolution, iCCup has been stigmatized for really not that good reasons, Fish is not easy to get working, there's random sketchy launchers people keep pushing even tho the threads are full of complaints they don't always work, for some people Brood War will just crash every other game... Holy shit, the list of things that make BW a pain to play in 2014 are endless lol. Not to mention we all got older, got jobs, have things to actually do, and having not played much in years, feel really stiff trying to wield the magnificent beast that is BW When it's that much work to get into a scene you know isn't very lively, there's pretty much no motivation you know? The sensible people have all let go. | ||
prech
United States2948 Posts
On October 16 2014 07:33 Chef wrote: As for BW being on Korean TV regularly again (my arbitrary standard for what a revival would probably look like), I'm not holding my breath but I don't think it's totally impossible. More in the case of Sonic getting studio space, getting TV casters, and the like. It's really hard to look at that and say it has no potential. It's also kinda hard to look at all the names that are around right now and not think that there aren't a lot of new ones, and there are a whole lot that were the proscene still going on, probably would have vanished into the ether. Like what's the next generation of pro players actually supposed to be? All the names that seem unfamiliar are only unfamiliar because they were B teamers. I wrote a lot of garbage here. In the end I think it's actually kinda hard to get a good synthesis of information. Sonic keeps investing more and more and you think he must have a reason, but being totally honest it looks kinda bad long term. These guys aren't gonna stream BW from their parents' houses forever lol. They're just spending time with their family before military, it seems in a lot of cases. I don't think a dedicated BW television channel is a necessity in today's entertainment landscape. SC2 is surviving with big money despite only an occasional presence on SpoTV Games and none on OGN. I think the paradigm has really evolved over the years... Lots of content generators on Youtube, whether gamers, make-up gurus, comedians, etc have succeeded in making millions from viewership and sponsorship deals. Then we have folks tuning to Netflix, Amazon, and other non-traditional media. Korea is incredibly well-connected online, so if the sponsorship money is there, a new gaming network along the lines of Hungry App or Kongdoo, or a few Afreeca channels, can easily thrive. Or if BW just gets broadcasted on some of the existing online E-Sports network. The Korean market is just too small to support BW from direct viewership alone (Afreeca balloons, ad space, monetized rates based on # of views), so I imagine it's all about sponsors. If marketers are finding it difficult to reach their target demographics and see BW as an alternative, they can turn to sponsoring leagues like LoveTV and Sonic, then channels/networks and players directly, basically just like any other successful E-Sport. I'm curious how Korean marketers gauge BW's value, as Afreeca viewership and offline league attendance numbers don't seem to suffice. | ||
Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On October 16 2014 23:13 Chef wrote: If I did, I didn't mean to, because I also think that was the primary factor. But I think far from antagonizing Blizzard, sponsors were interested in the global market Blizzard was trying to create for esports, and of course that market was not going to include Brood War. So it's like your options are fighting a company who basically holds all the cards and can just say 'you're not allowed to use our games anymore,' or you can cooperate and probably get a lot of money too and give at least some of your workers somewhere to go. It's pretty hard to stand by Brood War in that case And of course it doesn't feel fair to people who really liked Brood War, and it seems like the callous destruction of something that had true value, but to Blizzard it was a product and to everyone else it was just a video game. As for why the foreign scene is not lively in light of Sonic's efforts... I dunno. I've gotta say the Brood War matches today feel like watching people play a game, and maybe it's hard to understand what I mean but that's not what watching an OSL or MSL match felt like. Among other factors like it being really annoying to set up Brood War, installing it on modern operating systems is not always easy, lots of monitors refuse to display at 4:3 resolution, iCCup has been stigmatized for really not that good reasons, Fish is not easy to get working, there's random sketchy launchers people keep pushing even tho the threads are full of complaints they don't always work, for some people Brood War will just crash every other game... Holy shit, the list of things that make BW a pain to play in 2014 are endless lol. Not to mention we all got older, got jobs, have things to actually do, and having not played much in years, feel really stiff trying to wield the magnificent beast that is BW When it's that much work to get into a scene you know isn't very lively, there's pretty much no motivation you know? The sensible people have all let go. yeah i largely agree here, so (; | ||
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