EPT[N] Sicilian Mafia Style - Page 10
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On July 16 2013 13:31 Oatsmaster wrote: Yeah hapa, whos scum? Don't troll me. Normally I'd entertain you in the early game, but we have a limited posting to work on here. The reason why I think masoning a strong townread is good is because you dont have a post limit to discuss the game with them, Masoning should be used for scum-hunting purposes, and not for town circle-jerking purposes. Discussing the game with one of your town-reads is only going to be useful if that town player is really, really good. However, it also is going to do nothing but affirm your town-read on someone as opposed to getting information out of players you need information from. I dont feel that pming a scumread will confirm or deny your suspicions on him and with suspicion from both of you, the pm conversation is therefore less useful. Are town confirmed masons better or non town confirmed masons better if you are a mason? hmm? This is absurd. Talking to someone wont' confirm or deny suspicious? How the hell else do you scum-hunt? You talk to someone in-thread to confirm/deny suspicions. PM's are extremely valuable because they're our only resource for unrestricted information. Buddying a town-read can be good sometimes, but he better alternative will usually be either a) pressuring someone or b) early-game meta-based reads. Strong could also mean townread that has played a few games and is relatively experienced. And apparently you guys think that people dont think. Yeah sure Ill mason someone the whole game has masoned. useful. Guys.... Shit happens. People get over-emotional and derp all the time - even the most level headed of us. I never assume competency. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
only post I see as scummy so far is firmtofu's. Dude is like explicitly telling the traitor what not to do in his first post so he doesn't get caught or something. Fishy as hell | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On July 16 2013 13:41 Hapahauli wrote: Don't troll me. Normally I'd entertain you in the early game, but we have a limited posting to work on here. Masoning should be used for scum-hunting purposes, and not for town circle-jerking purposes. Discussing the game with one of your town-reads is only going to be useful if that town player is really, really good. However, it also is going to do nothing but affirm your town-read on someone as opposed to getting information out of players you need information from. This is absurd. Talking to someone wont' confirm or deny suspicious? How the hell else do you scum-hunt? You talk to someone in-thread to confirm/deny suspicions. PM's are extremely valuable because they're our only resource for unrestricted information. Buddying a town-read can be good sometimes, but he better alternative will usually be either a) pressuring someone or b) early-game meta-based reads. Shit happens. People get over-emotional and derp all the time - even the most level headed of us. I never assume competency. Why do you think PMs are a good thing? All they do is provide shady ways of communication for people to manipulate others. If I can't see it in the thread how the fuck am I supposed to figure out the game? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
If people are unsure about how to mason, they should just avoid using it. Worst thing we can do is have all the discussion going on in PM land and nothing to go off of someone's alignment other than their mason's read on them. On July 16 2013 13:26 Hapahauli wrote: Masoning strong town-reads can be a pretty bad idea under certain circumstnaces. For example, if one of your strong town-reads is a newbie without much scum-hunting clout, there's no point in masoning him. Similarly, you want to avoid a situation where everyone masons one player thereby wasting a whole bunch of town's resources. How do you propose building up scum-hunting circles otherwise? Or was that a semi-joke? | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
Who are you looking to be scum hapa. You can retract your statement at any time, but you have GOT to have some inkling who the people have posted are scum. Also, we disagree on how to use masoning. And I dont think I can change your opinion so lets not waste posts talking about it. 6 mafia + traitor right RoL? | ||
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FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 16 2013 13:16 Oatsmaster wrote: In other news, Firmtofu pre typed that and its not alignment indicative. I didn't. I typed it up after the game started and I read my role. I don't think it makes any difference either way. It should not be considered alignment indicative regardless. On July 16 2013 13:17 Hapahauli wrote: 1) What are your views on PM usage? How and when should they be used? 2) Are there any policy lynches around the posting-limit we should consider? (i.e. if someone doesn't use all their posts, they get lynched, etc) 3) Who are players you feel you can read very well and reliably in this game? 1) As I mentioned in my last post, I am unfamiliar with this mechanic. I think you should use PMs on your strong town reads. You should give priority to town reads that you personally have that others may not necessarily have. If you fear they will be NK'd, then avoids masoning them IMO. 2) I think the lurker policy lynch is always a good one to consider. Although they may not necessarily be the best lynch, they do serve the purpose of setting up the lategame well. We don't want our endgame to suffer from inactivity and these types of lynches should prevent that. Perhaps we could also consider policy lynching people who repeatedly post one-liners. That sort of behavior is largely non-beneficial and we should send a message to everyone that we are not going to tolerate it. 3) I cannot read any of the players in this game well. I am against the use of meta in general, so even if I could read them based on past play, I would never make a case on them based on it. On July 16 2013 13:22 Oatsmaster wrote: Firm Tofu, why are you even bringing up 'hunting' the traitor? Are there specific traitor tells? What??? No, nothing specific. I'm saying that if you see something suspicious, feel free to bring it up. I wanted to establish an open environment to allow town to speak freely. If anyone has any specific ways to find the traitor, please enlighten us! | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
But you bring up an excellent point. FirmTofu's post is seemingly designed to seem as helpful as possible (to the point that it looks pre-written) but I can't imagine town is very fixated on the traitor at all. FirmTofu, explain what you're thinking and was your post pre-written? Are you just a statistics/setup nerd that always looks at the game that way? I don't necessarily find it extra suspicious that you're describing the ideal play of the traitor, this is certainly something the traitor and everybody else probably knows, but it's the most substantial part of your initial post and it's an alarming fixation. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On July 16 2013 13:47 VayneAuthority wrote: Why do you think PMs are a good thing? All they do is provide shady ways of communication for people to manipulate others. If I can't see it in the thread how the fuck am I supposed to figure out the game? PM evidence should obviously be considered for what it is. It is possible to fake stuff like that. However it is still very useful in proper circumstances. For example, if a town-leader emerges, the PM evidence he/she brings forth will be pretty compelling evidence to lynch someone. On July 16 2013 13:48 slOosh wrote: Hey guys. If people are unsure about how to mason, they should just avoid using it. Worst thing we can do is have all the discussion going on in PM land and nothing to go off of someone's alignment other than their mason's read on them. How do you propose building up scum-hunting circles otherwise? Or was that a semi-joke? Circles don't have to necessarily form around one player. That being said, everyone masoning someone like a town Sandro probably wouldn't be all that bad. I'd have to think about this some more. On July 16 2013 13:48 Oatsmaster wrote: Man im totally gonna blow my post count in like the first 3 hours. Who are you looking to be scum hapa. You can retract your statement at any time, but you have GOT to have some inkling who the people have posted are scum. Also, we disagree on how to use masoning. And I dont think I can change your opinion so lets not waste posts talking about it. 6 mafia + traitor right RoL? I think FT is the traitor from that first post. Usually Traitors try to "breadcrumb" their roles somehow in the thread so that they can either communicate with the mafia or be added to the mafia QT (through whatever mechanic). I'm not 100% on the read ofcourse (too early in the game to be certain about that stuff), but it's a remarkably constructed post and one that has a very alarming fixation on a specific role. Otherwise, no scum-reads. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On July 16 2013 13:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote: If you don't respond to people who mason you I'm probably going to push your lynch. But you bring up an excellent point. FirmTofu's post is seemingly designed to seem as helpful as possible (to the point that it looks pre-written) but I can't imagine town is very fixated on the traitor at all. FirmTofu, explain what you're thinking and was your post pre-written? Are you just a statistics/setup nerd that always looks at the game that way? I don't necessarily find it extra suspicious that you're describing the ideal play of the traitor, this is certainly something the traitor and everybody else probably knows, but it's the most substantial part of your initial post and it's an alarming fixation. Don't get me wrong, if for some strange fucking reason you want to mason me then go ahead and I will talk to you. I won't be using either of mine though. Could you direct me to a good town game of yours btw? never played with you so I want to see how you play | ||
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FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 16 2013 13:43 VayneAuthority wrote: I'm not going to be masoning anyone just as a heads up. Don't like PMs, never have. only post I see as scummy so far is firmtofu's. Dude is like explicitly telling the traitor what not to do in his first post so he doesn't get caught or something. Fishy as hell You actually bring up a very good point. Although it was not my intention to direct the traitor's behavior, this is a potential indirect effect of my post. However, if the traitor avoids dropping clues about his alignment, then wouldn't this hurt mafia? Unless the mafia was more concerned about the traitor's life than one of their own, I think they would be willing to take the risk of having the traitor drop some clues for them to find. On July 16 2013 13:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote: If you don't respond to people who mason you I'm probably going to push your lynch. But you bring up an excellent point. FirmTofu's post is seemingly designed to seem as helpful as possible (to the point that it looks pre-written) but I can't imagine town is very fixated on the traitor at all. FirmTofu, explain what you're thinking and was your post pre-written? Are you just a statistics/setup nerd that always looks at the game that way? I don't necessarily find it extra suspicious that you're describing the ideal play of the traitor, this is certainly something the traitor and everybody else probably knows, but it's the most substantial part of your initial post and it's an alarming fixation. No, I mentioned in my previous post that it was not pre-written. [QUOTE]On July 16 2013 13:48 slOosh wrote: Hey guys. If people are unsure about how to mason, they should just avoid using it. Worst thing we can do is have all the discussion going on in PM land and nothing to go off of someone's alignment other than their mason's read on them. /QUOTE] While Vayne made a personal choice not to mason, you seem to be directing people to avoid using it. Do you have an inherent motivation to discourage people from masoning? A discussion in "PM land" doesn't prevent discussions from happening in thread. I can't see why you would recommend people not to mason at all. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On July 16 2013 14:01 VayneAuthority wrote: Don't get me wrong, if for some strange fucking reason you want to mason me then go ahead and I will talk to you. I won't be using either of mine though. Could you direct me to a good town game of yours btw? never played with you so I want to see how you play Insane Mafia, TL Mafia LX, Salem Mafia. All games where I played well in the beginning but my play tends to taper out in a big way near the end of games. @FirmTofu, you ignored the important part of my question which means I'm voting for you. Why are you fixated on the traitor right now? We all know what the traitor/should shouldn't do. What the town should do is lynch anyone who plays like scum or plays like the traitor, this is obvious right? But the fact that you're already thinking about the traitor more than anything else is a decidedly non-town way to think. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
[QUOTE]On July 16 2013 13:43 VayneAuthority wrote: I'm not going to be masoning anyone just as a heads up. Don't like PMs, never have. only post I see as scummy so far is firmtofu's. Dude is like explicitly telling the traitor what not to do in his first post so he doesn't get caught or something. Fishy as hell[/QUOTE] You actually bring up a very good point. Although it was not my intention to direct the traitor's behavior, this is a potential indirect effect of my post. However, if the traitor avoids dropping clues about his alignment, then wouldn't this hurt mafia? Unless the mafia was more concerned about the traitor's life than one of their own, I think they would be willing to take the risk of having the traitor drop some clues for them to find. [QUOTE]On July 16 2013 13:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote: If you don't respond to people who mason you I'm probably going to push your lynch. But you bring up an excellent point. FirmTofu's post is seemingly designed to seem as helpful as possible (to the point that it looks pre-written) but I can't imagine town is very fixated on the traitor at all. FirmTofu, explain what you're thinking and was your post pre-written? Are you just a statistics/setup nerd that always looks at the game that way? I don't necessarily find it extra suspicious that you're describing the ideal play of the traitor, this is certainly something the traitor and everybody else probably knows, but it's the most substantial part of your initial post and it's an alarming fixation. [/QUOTE] No, I mentioned in my previous post that it was not pre-written. [QUOTE]On July 16 2013 13:48 slOosh wrote: Hey guys. If people are unsure about how to mason, they should just avoid using it. Worst thing we can do is have all the discussion going on in PM land and nothing to go off of someone's alignment other than their mason's read on them. /QUOTE] While Vayne made a personal choice not to mason, you seem to be directing people to avoid using it. Do you have an inherent motivation to discourage people from masoning? A discussion in "PM land" doesn't prevent discussions from happening in thread. I can't see why you would recommend people not to mason at all.[/QUOTE] Yea I'm not going to condemn you for 1 post but I will be thinking about it. We should avoid talking about the traitor at all costs because it only gives him a chance to slip something. in. Lets agree from this point to not bring up any traitor bullshit and he won't be able to do anything. | ||
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FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 16 2013 13:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote: If you don't respond to people who mason you I'm probably going to push your lynch. But you bring up an excellent point. FirmTofu's post is seemingly designed to seem as helpful as possible (to the point that it looks pre-written) but I can't imagine town is very fixated on the traitor at all. FirmTofu, explain what you're thinking and was your post pre-written? Are you just a statistics/setup nerd that always looks at the game that way? I don't necessarily find it extra suspicious that you're describing the ideal play of the traitor, this is certainly something the traitor and everybody else probably knows, but it's the most substantial part of your initial post and it's an alarming fixation. I'm a bit of a statistics buff, so in a way, yes. I don't see why drawing attention to the role would make me mafia/traitor. If anything, scum would be trying to draw attention away from these types of roles. On July 16 2013 14:00 Hapahauli wrote: I think FT is the traitor from that first post. Usually Traitors try to "breadcrumb" their roles somehow in the thread so that they can either communicate with the mafia or be added to the mafia QT (through whatever mechanic). I'm not 100% on the read ofcourse (too early in the game to be certain about that stuff), but it's a remarkably constructed post and one that has a very alarming fixation on a specific role. Otherwise, no scum-reads. You make a valid point, but there is a flaw in this reasoning. As I mentioned in my response to DrH, scum would be trying to avoid drawing attention to their own roles. There is a guilt factor that many scum fall victim to. People who are uncomfortable with lying try to avoid any discussion that could potentially link them to their role. This is my why scum generally try to avoid talking to their teammates in thread and generally avoid talking about their roles. I'm hoping we can move away from this speculative discussion and pursue something more meaningful and concrete. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
[quote]But you bring up an excellent point. FirmTofu's post is seemingly designed to seem as helpful as possible (to the point that it looks pre-written) but I can't imagine town is very fixated on the traitor at all. FirmTofu, explain what you're thinking and was your post pre-written? Are you just a statistics/setup nerd that always looks at the game that way? I don't necessarily find it extra suspicious that you're describing the ideal play of the traitor, this is certainly something the traitor and everybody else probably knows, but it's the most substantial part of your initial post and it's an alarming fixation. Tofu, have you played with a traitor mechanic before? If so, what did you gain from that? If not, why are you focusing on the traitor? Hapa is playing incredibly oddly. Incredibly. Do you wish for us to lynch the traitor Hapa? Like why would Firmtofu as the traitor talk all about the traitor? Seems a bit obvious. A bit. Also how do you not have at least 1 guy leaning scum. Gut read hapa. GUT. Or do you not have a guy? Everyone, name 1 scumread. OR DIE! | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 16 2013 14:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote: @FirmTofu, you ignored the important part of my question which means I'm voting for you. Why are you fixated on the traitor right now? We all know what the traitor/should shouldn't do. What the town should do is lynch anyone who plays like scum or plays like the traitor, this is obvious right? But the fact that you're already thinking about the traitor more than anything else is a decidedly non-town way to think. My fixation isn't a fixation. We know 1 thing. There are 6 mafia and 1 traitor. I was drawing attention to the only concrete information that the OP gave us. Would you rather have me talk about easy town cred bullshit that is in all of the guides all over TL? I was offering my perspective into a topic that is specifically relevant to the game at hand instead of reciting standard procedure that town should follow. The fact that I'm thinking about the traitor is far from non-town. Let's address what I actually said shall we? On July 16 2013 13:05 FirmTofu wrote: We obviously need to keep an eye out for the traitor, but specifically hunting for him in the early days will be a waste of resources, in my opinion. I said let's NOT focus our attention on the traitor on the early days of the game because the discussion would be largely unhelpful. This means that I'm not thinking about the traitor more than anything else, in fact, I'm trying to do the exact opposite. I find it rather troublesome that you insist on continuing a discussion on such a speculative topic and would go as far as to place a vote on me for such trivial things. Are you looking for a reason to vote or are you looking for scum? I'll be watching you closely. On July 16 2013 14:17 Oatsmaster wrote: Tofu, have you played with a traitor mechanic before? If so, what did you gain from that? If not, why are you focusing on the traitor? Hapa is playing incredibly oddly. Incredibly. Do you wish for us to lynch the traitor Hapa? Like why would Firmtofu as the traitor talk all about the traitor? Seems a bit obvious. A bit. Also how do you not have at least 1 guy leaning scum. Gut read hapa. GUT. Or do you not have a guy? Everyone, name 1 scumread. OR DIE! No, I have not played with the traitor mechanic on this site before. I have played with it on another site, but it was considerably different. I don't think I can draw parallels between my experience in those games. I'm focusing the traitor for reasons I mentioned in my above responses^. My best scumread is slOosh. He still has not answered my question. Obviously a weak read right now, so take it with a grain of salt. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
VayneAuthority - people are going to form mason circles in this game. Announcing your withdrawal to me only makes sense as a scum play. If you're town - you need to change your mind. If you are town and refuse to mason all you are doing is intentionally withholding information from yourself and potentially, the thread. This is bad. Regardless of whether or not you disagree/dislike mason as a MECHANIC, it is a primary mechanic in this game. Ideally, there are only two good reasons to avoid it: 1. You are a blue petrified of being fished/discovered. I find this very unlikely, blues tend to use PMs with townreads while laying low in the thread so they can push their night results or form town circles. Also, your play style seems aggressive and direct - you don't seem timid in thread as is typical of a blue role so I don't see this being the case. 2. You are a red who wants to avoid pressure/slips as much as possible, in the thread you have a lot more control. I don't necessarily like the idea of discussion happening that I'm not aware of but as a town player it doesn't scare me and I won't refuse to take advantage of it. Scum wants as much control and editing power over their thread presence as possible and to avoid pressure/direct contact as much as they can. You seem unusually confident in your pressure for Day 1 and you're already asking for meta reads, everything about that seems off to me. @FirmTofu - I think your defense seems very legitimate and natural, you're off my scumdar. However, it's not that you drew attention to the existence of the traitor, just the fact that it seemed to be at the top of your mind is off. Which is why I wanted you to clarify how you approach mafia in general, it makes perfect sense that the numerically/setup minded type of townies would be fixated on that from the beginning. An LSB/sandro type of player are the kinds of people who I wouldn't raise an eyebrow at for talking traitor, so thanks for that. @Oatsmaster - I see how that seems waffly, but I'm talking about two different things in bold. Actually three. Let me categorize them: Suspicious: 1. Posts that seem to be overly edited to seem really pro-town while doing nothing to find scum (this is way less suspicious int he first hour of Day 1 than any other time in the game. On Day 3 I might instantly vote someone for a post like that) 2. Early fixation on ideas that scum are more likely to be worried/thinking about than town. Not suspicious: 3. The idea that he is giving the traitor "advice". Any discussion about the traitor in thread (basically inevitable) is going to turn around to the ideal way to play the role, since arguments/discussions are usually framed around that idea. When people are accused of being scum cases revolve around our ideas of ideal town/scum play, as far as I am concerned this does not count in any way as passive advice and isn't really much of a point at all. and IDK hapa's meta. But I'm gonna cool it so I don't go over my post limit, I'll be more constructive later in the day with more information. For now: ##Vote: VayneAuthority I recommend masoning with me because it'll help me control my spam tendencies. If you're town we'll have a productive discussion. If you're not, I'll figure you out quickly. Win/Win. | ||
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