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On June 22 2013 05:39 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:14 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:02 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:57 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 03:40 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:31 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
[quote]
[quote]
From the way people are describing it, I keep getting the impression that obesity is (ignoring for a moment the cases where it is an actual disease, a la glanular disorder) an addiction, and they're classifying addictions as diseases. I'm coming from a different realm of addiction, and "You know you shouldn't eat that food. You know it's bad for you. You know if you don't eat it you'll be under your caloric intake for that day and you'll be on the right track but your brain just fucking forces you man. It's honestly a terrible experience, and a lot of physically fit people who've never had to deal with being obese/overweight will never understand that. It takes an incredible amount of mental fortitude to lose weight because for the first couple of weeks it genuinely feels like you are starving yourself even if you're still taking in 3000 calories per day and your body becomes so accustomed to it you start to freaking break down at times." strikes a freaking bone with me, it sounds exactly what I go through with regards to my completely not-food-related addiction But obesity is an addiction like video gaming or porn are addictions. You feel compelled to do it mentally or psychologically, but you won't go through the withdrawal symptoms that an alcoholic or heroin addict go through if you start eating less. There is a legitimate physiological effect that drug addiction has on the body beyond just putting on a few pounds, which is why I have no problem classifying them as diseases. Withdrawal symptoms from certain drugs are capable of killing people and I don't think the same can be said of dieting. That's incredibly false. Certain foods like high amounts of sugar, release pleasure hormones in your brain. "Food" in general isn't an addiction but there are certain combinations of fat, sugar, and salt (conveniently found in almost every fast food item) that absolutely has a narcotic effect on the brain. And one of the reasons dieting is so hard is precisely because of the withdrawl symptoms. The first few days or weeks of your diet are MISERABLE because your brain is literally releasing fewer happy hormones. One of the reasons it's so easy for skinny people to stay skinny or just lose a couple of pounds and it's so hard for fat people to get skinny is because of those symptoms. There is an element of discipline that can't be ignored but I'm shocked at how many people in this thread have such strong opinions without knowing any of the medical science that went into this decision. If you're seriously comparing the "narcotic" effect that certain foods can have on the brain to the real narcotic effect of narcotics on the brain AND comparing dieting to what people addicted to narcotics go through when they are detoxing, I don't really know what to tell you. I get it that it hurts, physically and mentally, to change your diet severely. It's not just about being hungry, but can manifest itself in other physical symptoms. But it is not detoxing and you can't die from reducing your daily caloric intake from 6,000 calories to 3,000. In fact, if you have the time and the commitment, you can slowly change your diet and exercise habits to lose the weight over time, a luxury that drug addicts rarely have access to if they want to get clean. And I never said it was as easy for fat people to get in shape than it is for thin people to stay in shape, I'm not sure why you're putting those words into my mouth. I know it's harder. Tough shit. They got themselves in that hole, and they have to get themselves out if they want to be healthy. And since their poor health, when aggregated at the scale that obesity is at in this country, affects all of us, it's our business too. Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think. And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical. And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. That is in fact not true, as the body craves food the same way that someone who smokes craves a cigarette. Claiming that someone can just stop being obese by not eating is like saying someone can cure being anorexic by sitting down to a good meal. Both are false. I'm sorry, what did I say that was "not true"? You went off on a little tangent about how tragically difficult it is for fat people to have self control, but nothing you said actually refuted my post. In fact, I am completely correct. On June 22 2013 05:06 TSORG wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:57 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 03:40 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:31 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
[quote]
[quote]
From the way people are describing it, I keep getting the impression that obesity is (ignoring for a moment the cases where it is an actual disease, a la glanular disorder) an addiction, and they're classifying addictions as diseases. I'm coming from a different realm of addiction, and "You know you shouldn't eat that food. You know it's bad for you. You know if you don't eat it you'll be under your caloric intake for that day and you'll be on the right track but your brain just fucking forces you man. It's honestly a terrible experience, and a lot of physically fit people who've never had to deal with being obese/overweight will never understand that. It takes an incredible amount of mental fortitude to lose weight because for the first couple of weeks it genuinely feels like you are starving yourself even if you're still taking in 3000 calories per day and your body becomes so accustomed to it you start to freaking break down at times." strikes a freaking bone with me, it sounds exactly what I go through with regards to my completely not-food-related addiction But obesity is an addiction like video gaming or porn are addictions. You feel compelled to do it mentally or psychologically, but you won't go through the withdrawal symptoms that an alcoholic or heroin addict go through if you start eating less. There is a legitimate physiological effect that drug addiction has on the body beyond just putting on a few pounds, which is why I have no problem classifying them as diseases. Withdrawal symptoms from certain drugs are capable of killing people and I don't think the same can be said of dieting. That's incredibly false. Certain foods like high amounts of sugar, release pleasure hormones in your brain. "Food" in general isn't an addiction but there are certain combinations of fat, sugar, and salt (conveniently found in almost every fast food item) that absolutely has a narcotic effect on the brain. And one of the reasons dieting is so hard is precisely because of the withdrawl symptoms. The first few days or weeks of your diet are MISERABLE because your brain is literally releasing fewer happy hormones. One of the reasons it's so easy for skinny people to stay skinny or just lose a couple of pounds and it's so hard for fat people to get skinny is because of those symptoms. There is an element of discipline that can't be ignored but I'm shocked at how many people in this thread have such strong opinions without knowing any of the medical science that went into this decision. If you're seriously comparing the "narcotic" effect that certain foods can have on the brain to the real narcotic effect of narcotics on the brain AND comparing dieting to what people addicted to narcotics go through when they are detoxing, I don't really know what to tell you. I get it that it hurts, physically and mentally, to change your diet severely. It's not just about being hungry, but can manifest itself in other physical symptoms. But it is not detoxing and you can't die from reducing your daily caloric intake from 6,000 calories to 3,000. In fact, if you have the time and the commitment, you can slowly change your diet and exercise habits to lose the weight over time, a luxury that drug addicts rarely have access to if they want to get clean. And I never said it was as easy for fat people to get in shape than it is for thin people to stay in shape, I'm not sure why you're putting those words into my mouth. I know it's harder. Tough shit. They got themselves in that hole, and they have to get themselves out if they want to be healthy. And since their poor health, when aggregated at the scale that obesity is at in this country, affects all of us, it's our business too. Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think. And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical. And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. thats simply false (if by overconsumption you mean consuming more than you need or burn in a day), i eat alot of fast food and sugar and i havent exercised (due to a knee injury) for 3 years, but i havent gained weight, and although i have lost some muscle, i havent gained much fat. Ah, another special snowflake whose magical body defies the laws of physics. Thanks for your anecdote. It's so very valuable and useful. Now give us a detailed journal of daily calories consumed for the past ~4 months, plus routine weigh ins (weekly is okay) and maybe people will actually believe you. If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. They are both based on the persons mental ability to control how much food they intake. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. If those are considered diseases the flip side would be that overeating, not obesity, is a disease. Obesity would simply be a symptom of the overeating "disease". You have no trouble cutting to the heart of the issue when it comes to people who are unhealthily thin, but when it comes to unhealthily fat people you remove personal responsibility from the equation. Why is that? And just to clarify, you are tacitly admitting that my post you called "not true" was actually 100% true and you were mistaken, right? Not to sound like a broken record but I'd like an explicit admission of error from you.
No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers.
I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease.
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On June 22 2013 05:36 TigerKarl wrote:
Not a single funny fat joke in this topic, just random kids trying to sound smart. Saddest day on my life on TL.
Your mom is so fat, the AMA classified her obesity as a disease.
Does that work?
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On June 22 2013 05:41 Heavenlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 05:39 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:34 Heavenlee wrote:On June 22 2013 05:28 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:25 Heavenlee wrote:On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:14 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:02 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think.
And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical.
And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. That is in fact not true, as the body craves food the same way that someone who smokes craves a cigarette. Claiming that someone can just stop being obese by not eating is like saying someone can cure being anorexic by sitting down to a good meal. Both are false. I'm sorry, what did I say that was "not true"? You went off on a little tangent about how tragically difficult it is for fat people to have self control, but nothing you said actually refuted my post. In fact, I am completely correct. On June 22 2013 05:06 TSORG wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think.
And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical.
And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. thats simply false (if by overconsumption you mean consuming more than you need or burn in a day), i eat alot of fast food and sugar and i havent exercised (due to a knee injury) for 3 years, but i havent gained weight, and although i have lost some muscle, i havent gained much fat. Ah, another special snowflake whose magical body defies the laws of physics. Thanks for your anecdote. It's so very valuable and useful. Now give us a detailed journal of daily calories consumed for the past ~4 months, plus routine weigh ins (weekly is okay) and maybe people will actually believe you. If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. Undereating and self-starvation are not considered diseases...anorexia is. There's quite a bit of difference. Just because you can point out the physiological manifestation of overeating (like you can with...everything...since everything a human does has a physiological reason) doesn't excuse a behavior. And it being a disease does not excuse the behavior. All it does is force health care providers to cover treatment for it. People who have anorexia still have to fix the problem, they just receive medical coverage for therapy the use to treat it. Now the same applies to being obese. Eating disorder treatment is rarely covered by insurance. What are you talking about? That greatly depends on the treatment, but they do cover therapy and doctors visits, but not the most intensives care groups and other specialty clinics. Is anorexia even officially considered a disease? Or just an eating disorder? Like I said in my edit, there are already a lot of treatments covered by insurance for obesity. Including surgeries if deemed necessary.
Health care providers love to deny that claim or put unreasonable requirements in place to qualify. Some include proving that the treatment is 100% necessary and there is no other way for the person to loose weight. But they are really vague on what qualifies as "proof".
Its the classic dance of health care providers and their love of denying stuff. Its like when they denied people for having childhood diabetes until the government told them to knock it off.
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On June 22 2013 05:41 Heavenlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 05:39 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:34 Heavenlee wrote:On June 22 2013 05:28 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:25 Heavenlee wrote:On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:14 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:02 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think.
And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical.
And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. That is in fact not true, as the body craves food the same way that someone who smokes craves a cigarette. Claiming that someone can just stop being obese by not eating is like saying someone can cure being anorexic by sitting down to a good meal. Both are false. I'm sorry, what did I say that was "not true"? You went off on a little tangent about how tragically difficult it is for fat people to have self control, but nothing you said actually refuted my post. In fact, I am completely correct. On June 22 2013 05:06 TSORG wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think.
And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical.
And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. thats simply false (if by overconsumption you mean consuming more than you need or burn in a day), i eat alot of fast food and sugar and i havent exercised (due to a knee injury) for 3 years, but i havent gained weight, and although i have lost some muscle, i havent gained much fat. Ah, another special snowflake whose magical body defies the laws of physics. Thanks for your anecdote. It's so very valuable and useful. Now give us a detailed journal of daily calories consumed for the past ~4 months, plus routine weigh ins (weekly is okay) and maybe people will actually believe you. If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. Undereating and self-starvation are not considered diseases...anorexia is. There's quite a bit of difference. Just because you can point out the physiological manifestation of overeating (like you can with...everything...since everything a human does has a physiological reason) doesn't excuse a behavior. And it being a disease does not excuse the behavior. All it does is force health care providers to cover treatment for it. People who have anorexia still have to fix the problem, they just receive medical coverage for therapy the use to treat it. Now the same applies to being obese. Eating disorder treatment is rarely covered by insurance. What are you talking about? That greatly depends on the treatment, but they do cover therapy and doctors visits, but not the most intensives care groups and other specialty clinics. Is anorexia even officially considered a disease? Or just an eating disorder? Like I said in my edit, there are already a lot of treatments covered by insurance for obesity. Including surgeries if deemed necessary.
You are correct. Anorexia is not a disease, it is simply an eating disorder.
Obese people may have an eating disorder (compulsive gluttony?) but obesity would just be a consequence of such a disorder. It is silly to classify obesity itself as the disorder (or disease).
It seems this is purely political. Nobody wants to offend fat people by pointing out their affliction is 100% a consequence of their eating habits.
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On June 22 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 05:39 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:14 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:02 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:57 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 03:40 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
But obesity is an addiction like video gaming or porn are addictions. You feel compelled to do it mentally or psychologically, but you won't go through the withdrawal symptoms that an alcoholic or heroin addict go through if you start eating less. There is a legitimate physiological effect that drug addiction has on the body beyond just putting on a few pounds, which is why I have no problem classifying them as diseases. Withdrawal symptoms from certain drugs are capable of killing people and I don't think the same can be said of dieting.
That's incredibly false. Certain foods like high amounts of sugar, release pleasure hormones in your brain. "Food" in general isn't an addiction but there are certain combinations of fat, sugar, and salt (conveniently found in almost every fast food item) that absolutely has a narcotic effect on the brain. And one of the reasons dieting is so hard is precisely because of the withdrawl symptoms. The first few days or weeks of your diet are MISERABLE because your brain is literally releasing fewer happy hormones. One of the reasons it's so easy for skinny people to stay skinny or just lose a couple of pounds and it's so hard for fat people to get skinny is because of those symptoms. There is an element of discipline that can't be ignored but I'm shocked at how many people in this thread have such strong opinions without knowing any of the medical science that went into this decision. If you're seriously comparing the "narcotic" effect that certain foods can have on the brain to the real narcotic effect of narcotics on the brain AND comparing dieting to what people addicted to narcotics go through when they are detoxing, I don't really know what to tell you. I get it that it hurts, physically and mentally, to change your diet severely. It's not just about being hungry, but can manifest itself in other physical symptoms. But it is not detoxing and you can't die from reducing your daily caloric intake from 6,000 calories to 3,000. In fact, if you have the time and the commitment, you can slowly change your diet and exercise habits to lose the weight over time, a luxury that drug addicts rarely have access to if they want to get clean. And I never said it was as easy for fat people to get in shape than it is for thin people to stay in shape, I'm not sure why you're putting those words into my mouth. I know it's harder. Tough shit. They got themselves in that hole, and they have to get themselves out if they want to be healthy. And since their poor health, when aggregated at the scale that obesity is at in this country, affects all of us, it's our business too. Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think. And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical. And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. That is in fact not true, as the body craves food the same way that someone who smokes craves a cigarette. Claiming that someone can just stop being obese by not eating is like saying someone can cure being anorexic by sitting down to a good meal. Both are false. I'm sorry, what did I say that was "not true"? You went off on a little tangent about how tragically difficult it is for fat people to have self control, but nothing you said actually refuted my post. In fact, I am completely correct. On June 22 2013 05:06 TSORG wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:57 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 03:40 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
But obesity is an addiction like video gaming or porn are addictions. You feel compelled to do it mentally or psychologically, but you won't go through the withdrawal symptoms that an alcoholic or heroin addict go through if you start eating less. There is a legitimate physiological effect that drug addiction has on the body beyond just putting on a few pounds, which is why I have no problem classifying them as diseases. Withdrawal symptoms from certain drugs are capable of killing people and I don't think the same can be said of dieting.
That's incredibly false. Certain foods like high amounts of sugar, release pleasure hormones in your brain. "Food" in general isn't an addiction but there are certain combinations of fat, sugar, and salt (conveniently found in almost every fast food item) that absolutely has a narcotic effect on the brain. And one of the reasons dieting is so hard is precisely because of the withdrawl symptoms. The first few days or weeks of your diet are MISERABLE because your brain is literally releasing fewer happy hormones. One of the reasons it's so easy for skinny people to stay skinny or just lose a couple of pounds and it's so hard for fat people to get skinny is because of those symptoms. There is an element of discipline that can't be ignored but I'm shocked at how many people in this thread have such strong opinions without knowing any of the medical science that went into this decision. If you're seriously comparing the "narcotic" effect that certain foods can have on the brain to the real narcotic effect of narcotics on the brain AND comparing dieting to what people addicted to narcotics go through when they are detoxing, I don't really know what to tell you. I get it that it hurts, physically and mentally, to change your diet severely. It's not just about being hungry, but can manifest itself in other physical symptoms. But it is not detoxing and you can't die from reducing your daily caloric intake from 6,000 calories to 3,000. In fact, if you have the time and the commitment, you can slowly change your diet and exercise habits to lose the weight over time, a luxury that drug addicts rarely have access to if they want to get clean. And I never said it was as easy for fat people to get in shape than it is for thin people to stay in shape, I'm not sure why you're putting those words into my mouth. I know it's harder. Tough shit. They got themselves in that hole, and they have to get themselves out if they want to be healthy. And since their poor health, when aggregated at the scale that obesity is at in this country, affects all of us, it's our business too. Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think. And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical. And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. thats simply false (if by overconsumption you mean consuming more than you need or burn in a day), i eat alot of fast food and sugar and i havent exercised (due to a knee injury) for 3 years, but i havent gained weight, and although i have lost some muscle, i havent gained much fat. Ah, another special snowflake whose magical body defies the laws of physics. Thanks for your anecdote. It's so very valuable and useful. Now give us a detailed journal of daily calories consumed for the past ~4 months, plus routine weigh ins (weekly is okay) and maybe people will actually believe you. If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. They are both based on the persons mental ability to control how much food they intake. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. If those are considered diseases the flip side would be that overeating, not obesity, is a disease. Obesity would simply be a symptom of the overeating "disease". You have no trouble cutting to the heart of the issue when it comes to people who are unhealthily thin, but when it comes to unhealthily fat people you remove personal responsibility from the equation. Why is that? And just to clarify, you are tacitly admitting that my post you called "not true" was actually 100% true and you were mistaken, right? Not to sound like a broken record but I'd like an explicit admission of error from you. No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers. I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease.
I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full:
"Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."
Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong.
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most of america isnt even fat.
some scientist came up with a perfect weight to height ratio so if you are in those bounds, you arn't fat, but a pound over you are obese, i dont follow AMA they are a bunch of idiots that get paid our tax dollars to come up with bull!@#$.
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On June 22 2013 05:53 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:39 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:14 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:02 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:57 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
That's incredibly false. Certain foods like high amounts of sugar, release pleasure hormones in your brain. "Food" in general isn't an addiction but there are certain combinations of fat, sugar, and salt (conveniently found in almost every fast food item) that absolutely has a narcotic effect on the brain. And one of the reasons dieting is so hard is precisely because of the withdrawl symptoms. The first few days or weeks of your diet are MISERABLE because your brain is literally releasing fewer happy hormones.
One of the reasons it's so easy for skinny people to stay skinny or just lose a couple of pounds and it's so hard for fat people to get skinny is because of those symptoms. There is an element of discipline that can't be ignored but I'm shocked at how many people in this thread have such strong opinions without knowing any of the medical science that went into this decision.
If you're seriously comparing the "narcotic" effect that certain foods can have on the brain to the real narcotic effect of narcotics on the brain AND comparing dieting to what people addicted to narcotics go through when they are detoxing, I don't really know what to tell you. I get it that it hurts, physically and mentally, to change your diet severely. It's not just about being hungry, but can manifest itself in other physical symptoms. But it is not detoxing and you can't die from reducing your daily caloric intake from 6,000 calories to 3,000. In fact, if you have the time and the commitment, you can slowly change your diet and exercise habits to lose the weight over time, a luxury that drug addicts rarely have access to if they want to get clean. And I never said it was as easy for fat people to get in shape than it is for thin people to stay in shape, I'm not sure why you're putting those words into my mouth. I know it's harder. Tough shit. They got themselves in that hole, and they have to get themselves out if they want to be healthy. And since their poor health, when aggregated at the scale that obesity is at in this country, affects all of us, it's our business too. Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think. And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical. And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. That is in fact not true, as the body craves food the same way that someone who smokes craves a cigarette. Claiming that someone can just stop being obese by not eating is like saying someone can cure being anorexic by sitting down to a good meal. Both are false. I'm sorry, what did I say that was "not true"? You went off on a little tangent about how tragically difficult it is for fat people to have self control, but nothing you said actually refuted my post. In fact, I am completely correct. On June 22 2013 05:06 TSORG wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:57 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
That's incredibly false. Certain foods like high amounts of sugar, release pleasure hormones in your brain. "Food" in general isn't an addiction but there are certain combinations of fat, sugar, and salt (conveniently found in almost every fast food item) that absolutely has a narcotic effect on the brain. And one of the reasons dieting is so hard is precisely because of the withdrawl symptoms. The first few days or weeks of your diet are MISERABLE because your brain is literally releasing fewer happy hormones.
One of the reasons it's so easy for skinny people to stay skinny or just lose a couple of pounds and it's so hard for fat people to get skinny is because of those symptoms. There is an element of discipline that can't be ignored but I'm shocked at how many people in this thread have such strong opinions without knowing any of the medical science that went into this decision.
If you're seriously comparing the "narcotic" effect that certain foods can have on the brain to the real narcotic effect of narcotics on the brain AND comparing dieting to what people addicted to narcotics go through when they are detoxing, I don't really know what to tell you. I get it that it hurts, physically and mentally, to change your diet severely. It's not just about being hungry, but can manifest itself in other physical symptoms. But it is not detoxing and you can't die from reducing your daily caloric intake from 6,000 calories to 3,000. In fact, if you have the time and the commitment, you can slowly change your diet and exercise habits to lose the weight over time, a luxury that drug addicts rarely have access to if they want to get clean. And I never said it was as easy for fat people to get in shape than it is for thin people to stay in shape, I'm not sure why you're putting those words into my mouth. I know it's harder. Tough shit. They got themselves in that hole, and they have to get themselves out if they want to be healthy. And since their poor health, when aggregated at the scale that obesity is at in this country, affects all of us, it's our business too. Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think. And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical. And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. thats simply false (if by overconsumption you mean consuming more than you need or burn in a day), i eat alot of fast food and sugar and i havent exercised (due to a knee injury) for 3 years, but i havent gained weight, and although i have lost some muscle, i havent gained much fat. Ah, another special snowflake whose magical body defies the laws of physics. Thanks for your anecdote. It's so very valuable and useful. Now give us a detailed journal of daily calories consumed for the past ~4 months, plus routine weigh ins (weekly is okay) and maybe people will actually believe you. If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. They are both based on the persons mental ability to control how much food they intake. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. If those are considered diseases the flip side would be that overeating, not obesity, is a disease. Obesity would simply be a symptom of the overeating "disease". You have no trouble cutting to the heart of the issue when it comes to people who are unhealthily thin, but when it comes to unhealthily fat people you remove personal responsibility from the equation. Why is that? And just to clarify, you are tacitly admitting that my post you called "not true" was actually 100% true and you were mistaken, right? Not to sound like a broken record but I'd like an explicit admission of error from you. No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers. I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease. I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full: "Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong.
Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises.
In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct.
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On June 22 2013 05:20 Heavenlee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 05:06 TSORG wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:57 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 03:40 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:31 TheRealPaciFist wrote:On June 21 2013 03:56 Fruscainte wrote:On June 21 2013 03:52 Stress wrote:
To me a disease is something that is out of your control, such as huntington's or parkinson's, and in the case of being obese if you have a glandular disorder. The vast majority of obese people have no glandular disorder, they are obese because of lifestyle choices. This is just watering down the subject since every year it seems more and more people are becoming overweight due to a lack of care and self-control. I'm going to have to agree here. It's a mental condition if anything. I had experience with this, and it really is nothing more than that. You know you shouldn't eat that food. You know it's bad for you. You know if you don't eat it you'll be under your caloric intake for that day and you'll be on the right track but your brain just fucking forces you man. It's honestly a terrible experience, and a lot of physically fit people who've never had to deal with being obese/overweight will never understand that. It takes an incredible amount of mental fortitude to lose weight because for the first couple of weeks it genuinely feels like you are starving yourself even if you're still taking in 3000 calories per day and your body becomes so accustomed to it you start to freaking break down at times. I don't know how they got to the conclusion that this is a disease, but anything to provide more awareness is good in my book as far as I'm concerned though. On June 21 2013 04:06 ZasZ. wrote:On June 21 2013 03:52 Stress wrote:
To me a disease is something that is out of your control, such as huntington's or parkinson's, and in the case of being obese if you have a glandular disorder. The vast majority of obese people have no glandular disorder, they are obese because of lifestyle choices. This is just watering down the subject since every year it seems more and more people are becoming overweight due to a lack of care and self-control. Your logic kind of breaks down when you get to sexually transmitted diseases. Aside from rape, a person who contracts an STD did so due to their own carelessness or complacency, but STD's are still very real diseases. It really comes down to how you define the word disease, and whether or not victims act like victims or act like survivors. People are right in that too many people use "I'm sick! Alcoholism/Obesity/Drug Addiction is a disease!" as an excuse to be apathetic in their recovery, like it's out of their control. That's wrong, and the AMA would do well to clarify and say that just because obesity is a disease, it does not mean you have an excuse to stay obese. But if you look at the condition medically, I have a hard time calling it a "disease." Alcoholism has very specific, well-researched effects on the mind and body, especially when the person is deprived of alcohol. In that way you can suffer from the disease of alcoholism. It doesn't mean that person should be pitied or excuses should be made for them because of their condition, it just is what it is. If this designation of obesity as a disease puts more money into the hands of people that can actually reduce the percentage of Americans who are obese, I have no qualms with the promotion. If all this does is cause more people to be excessively overweight, stressing out our medical infrastructure and explaining away their self-abuse by saying they have a disease, then we have a problem. It all comes from the preconception that we have, for whatever reason, that a person who suffers from a disease should be pitied, no matter the disease or circumstances behind it. A child with Leukemia or a young woman with breast cancer should be pitied. The 60-year old chain smoker with lung cancer and the 350 lb man who needs a quadruple bypass should not. But they all have diseases that require treatment, whether we like it or not. From the way people are describing it, I keep getting the impression that obesity is (ignoring for a moment the cases where it is an actual disease, a la glanular disorder) an addiction, and they're classifying addictions as diseases. I'm coming from a different realm of addiction, and "You know you shouldn't eat that food. You know it's bad for you. You know if you don't eat it you'll be under your caloric intake for that day and you'll be on the right track but your brain just fucking forces you man. It's honestly a terrible experience, and a lot of physically fit people who've never had to deal with being obese/overweight will never understand that. It takes an incredible amount of mental fortitude to lose weight because for the first couple of weeks it genuinely feels like you are starving yourself even if you're still taking in 3000 calories per day and your body becomes so accustomed to it you start to freaking break down at times." strikes a freaking bone with me, it sounds exactly what I go through with regards to my completely not-food-related addiction But obesity is an addiction like video gaming or porn are addictions. You feel compelled to do it mentally or psychologically, but you won't go through the withdrawal symptoms that an alcoholic or heroin addict go through if you start eating less. There is a legitimate physiological effect that drug addiction has on the body beyond just putting on a few pounds, which is why I have no problem classifying them as diseases. Withdrawal symptoms from certain drugs are capable of killing people and I don't think the same can be said of dieting. That's incredibly false. Certain foods like high amounts of sugar, release pleasure hormones in your brain. "Food" in general isn't an addiction but there are certain combinations of fat, sugar, and salt (conveniently found in almost every fast food item) that absolutely has a narcotic effect on the brain. And one of the reasons dieting is so hard is precisely because of the withdrawl symptoms. The first few days or weeks of your diet are MISERABLE because your brain is literally releasing fewer happy hormones. One of the reasons it's so easy for skinny people to stay skinny or just lose a couple of pounds and it's so hard for fat people to get skinny is because of those symptoms. There is an element of discipline that can't be ignored but I'm shocked at how many people in this thread have such strong opinions without knowing any of the medical science that went into this decision. If you're seriously comparing the "narcotic" effect that certain foods can have on the brain to the real narcotic effect of narcotics on the brain AND comparing dieting to what people addicted to narcotics go through when they are detoxing, I don't really know what to tell you. I get it that it hurts, physically and mentally, to change your diet severely. It's not just about being hungry, but can manifest itself in other physical symptoms. But it is not detoxing and you can't die from reducing your daily caloric intake from 6,000 calories to 3,000. In fact, if you have the time and the commitment, you can slowly change your diet and exercise habits to lose the weight over time, a luxury that drug addicts rarely have access to if they want to get clean. And I never said it was as easy for fat people to get in shape than it is for thin people to stay in shape, I'm not sure why you're putting those words into my mouth. I know it's harder. Tough shit. They got themselves in that hole, and they have to get themselves out if they want to be healthy. And since their poor health, when aggregated at the scale that obesity is at in this country, affects all of us, it's our business too. Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think. And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical. And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. thats simply false (if by overconsumption you mean consuming more than you need or burn in a day), i eat alot of fast food and sugar and i havent exercised (due to a knee injury) for 3 years, but i havent gained weight, and although i have lost some muscle, i havent gained much fat. Fascinating stuff, because I actually do count my calories instead of just saying "I eat a lot of food" and know exactly how much I eat, and when I eat my maintenance I don't gain weight, when I eat below it I lose weight, and when I eat above it I gain weight. It's like magic or something. EDIT: And by the way, pretty sure the entire fitness community, especially bodybuilders who diet for shows, will give their own anecdotes that mirror mine. Except theirs are based on actually measuring how much they're eating.
i pity you then, if you truly count every calory.
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On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:57 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 03:40 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:31 TheRealPaciFist wrote:On June 21 2013 03:56 Fruscainte wrote:On June 21 2013 03:52 Stress wrote:
To me a disease is something that is out of your control, such as huntington's or parkinson's, and in the case of being obese if you have a glandular disorder. The vast majority of obese people have no glandular disorder, they are obese because of lifestyle choices. This is just watering down the subject since every year it seems more and more people are becoming overweight due to a lack of care and self-control. I'm going to have to agree here. It's a mental condition if anything. I had experience with this, and it really is nothing more than that. You know you shouldn't eat that food. You know it's bad for you. You know if you don't eat it you'll be under your caloric intake for that day and you'll be on the right track but your brain just fucking forces you man. It's honestly a terrible experience, and a lot of physically fit people who've never had to deal with being obese/overweight will never understand that. It takes an incredible amount of mental fortitude to lose weight because for the first couple of weeks it genuinely feels like you are starving yourself even if you're still taking in 3000 calories per day and your body becomes so accustomed to it you start to freaking break down at times. I don't know how they got to the conclusion that this is a disease, but anything to provide more awareness is good in my book as far as I'm concerned though. On June 21 2013 04:06 ZasZ. wrote:On June 21 2013 03:52 Stress wrote:
To me a disease is something that is out of your control, such as huntington's or parkinson's, and in the case of being obese if you have a glandular disorder. The vast majority of obese people have no glandular disorder, they are obese because of lifestyle choices. This is just watering down the subject since every year it seems more and more people are becoming overweight due to a lack of care and self-control. Your logic kind of breaks down when you get to sexually transmitted diseases. Aside from rape, a person who contracts an STD did so due to their own carelessness or complacency, but STD's are still very real diseases. It really comes down to how you define the word disease, and whether or not victims act like victims or act like survivors. People are right in that too many people use "I'm sick! Alcoholism/Obesity/Drug Addiction is a disease!" as an excuse to be apathetic in their recovery, like it's out of their control. That's wrong, and the AMA would do well to clarify and say that just because obesity is a disease, it does not mean you have an excuse to stay obese. But if you look at the condition medically, I have a hard time calling it a "disease." Alcoholism has very specific, well-researched effects on the mind and body, especially when the person is deprived of alcohol. In that way you can suffer from the disease of alcoholism. It doesn't mean that person should be pitied or excuses should be made for them because of their condition, it just is what it is. If this designation of obesity as a disease puts more money into the hands of people that can actually reduce the percentage of Americans who are obese, I have no qualms with the promotion. If all this does is cause more people to be excessively overweight, stressing out our medical infrastructure and explaining away their self-abuse by saying they have a disease, then we have a problem. It all comes from the preconception that we have, for whatever reason, that a person who suffers from a disease should be pitied, no matter the disease or circumstances behind it. A child with Leukemia or a young woman with breast cancer should be pitied. The 60-year old chain smoker with lung cancer and the 350 lb man who needs a quadruple bypass should not. But they all have diseases that require treatment, whether we like it or not. From the way people are describing it, I keep getting the impression that obesity is (ignoring for a moment the cases where it is an actual disease, a la glanular disorder) an addiction, and they're classifying addictions as diseases. I'm coming from a different realm of addiction, and "You know you shouldn't eat that food. You know it's bad for you. You know if you don't eat it you'll be under your caloric intake for that day and you'll be on the right track but your brain just fucking forces you man. It's honestly a terrible experience, and a lot of physically fit people who've never had to deal with being obese/overweight will never understand that. It takes an incredible amount of mental fortitude to lose weight because for the first couple of weeks it genuinely feels like you are starving yourself even if you're still taking in 3000 calories per day and your body becomes so accustomed to it you start to freaking break down at times." strikes a freaking bone with me, it sounds exactly what I go through with regards to my completely not-food-related addiction But obesity is an addiction like video gaming or porn are addictions. You feel compelled to do it mentally or psychologically, but you won't go through the withdrawal symptoms that an alcoholic or heroin addict go through if you start eating less. There is a legitimate physiological effect that drug addiction has on the body beyond just putting on a few pounds, which is why I have no problem classifying them as diseases. Withdrawal symptoms from certain drugs are capable of killing people and I don't think the same can be said of dieting. That's incredibly false. Certain foods like high amounts of sugar, release pleasure hormones in your brain. "Food" in general isn't an addiction but there are certain combinations of fat, sugar, and salt (conveniently found in almost every fast food item) that absolutely has a narcotic effect on the brain. And one of the reasons dieting is so hard is precisely because of the withdrawl symptoms. The first few days or weeks of your diet are MISERABLE because your brain is literally releasing fewer happy hormones. One of the reasons it's so easy for skinny people to stay skinny or just lose a couple of pounds and it's so hard for fat people to get skinny is because of those symptoms. There is an element of discipline that can't be ignored but I'm shocked at how many people in this thread have such strong opinions without knowing any of the medical science that went into this decision. If you're seriously comparing the "narcotic" effect that certain foods can have on the brain to the real narcotic effect of narcotics on the brain AND comparing dieting to what people addicted to narcotics go through when they are detoxing, I don't really know what to tell you. I get it that it hurts, physically and mentally, to change your diet severely. It's not just about being hungry, but can manifest itself in other physical symptoms. But it is not detoxing and you can't die from reducing your daily caloric intake from 6,000 calories to 3,000. In fact, if you have the time and the commitment, you can slowly change your diet and exercise habits to lose the weight over time, a luxury that drug addicts rarely have access to if they want to get clean. And I never said it was as easy for fat people to get in shape than it is for thin people to stay in shape, I'm not sure why you're putting those words into my mouth. I know it's harder. Tough shit. They got themselves in that hole, and they have to get themselves out if they want to be healthy. And since their poor health, when aggregated at the scale that obesity is at in this country, affects all of us, it's our business too. Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think. And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical. And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking.
And what exactly is your expertise in this subject? I'd like a little more than "hurr hurr I know what I'm talking about" before I'll believe that dieting for an obese person is just as bad as withdrawal from heroin, which can cause nausea, vomiting, insomnia, fever, etc. etc. "It's hard" isn't a good enough excuse, sorry. A lot of things worth doing are hard.
And I never said it shouldn't be a disease, in fact I stated quite the opposite. I think it's a more grey area than drug addiction, but it requires treatment therefore it can be a disease. My problem is with the official designation of it as a disease causing people to use it as an excuse to be lazy and what sort of public funding we can expect to be allocated to treating what is self-inflicted for the vast majority of people.
Again, if calling it a disease will get more money into the hands of people who can lower the percentage of Americans who are obese, I'm all for this move. If this is just a political move to protect the ego's of overweight people who want to blame anything or anyone but themselves for their condition, I disagree.
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On June 22 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 05:53 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:39 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:14 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:02 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
If you're seriously comparing the "narcotic" effect that certain foods can have on the brain to the real narcotic effect of narcotics on the brain AND comparing dieting to what people addicted to narcotics go through when they are detoxing, I don't really know what to tell you. I get it that it hurts, physically and mentally, to change your diet severely. It's not just about being hungry, but can manifest itself in other physical symptoms. But it is not detoxing and you can't die from reducing your daily caloric intake from 6,000 calories to 3,000. In fact, if you have the time and the commitment, you can slowly change your diet and exercise habits to lose the weight over time, a luxury that drug addicts rarely have access to if they want to get clean.
And I never said it was as easy for fat people to get in shape than it is for thin people to stay in shape, I'm not sure why you're putting those words into my mouth. I know it's harder. Tough shit. They got themselves in that hole, and they have to get themselves out if they want to be healthy. And since their poor health, when aggregated at the scale that obesity is at in this country, affects all of us, it's our business too.
Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think. And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical. And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. That is in fact not true, as the body craves food the same way that someone who smokes craves a cigarette. Claiming that someone can just stop being obese by not eating is like saying someone can cure being anorexic by sitting down to a good meal. Both are false. I'm sorry, what did I say that was "not true"? You went off on a little tangent about how tragically difficult it is for fat people to have self control, but nothing you said actually refuted my post. In fact, I am completely correct. On June 22 2013 05:06 TSORG wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
If you're seriously comparing the "narcotic" effect that certain foods can have on the brain to the real narcotic effect of narcotics on the brain AND comparing dieting to what people addicted to narcotics go through when they are detoxing, I don't really know what to tell you. I get it that it hurts, physically and mentally, to change your diet severely. It's not just about being hungry, but can manifest itself in other physical symptoms. But it is not detoxing and you can't die from reducing your daily caloric intake from 6,000 calories to 3,000. In fact, if you have the time and the commitment, you can slowly change your diet and exercise habits to lose the weight over time, a luxury that drug addicts rarely have access to if they want to get clean.
And I never said it was as easy for fat people to get in shape than it is for thin people to stay in shape, I'm not sure why you're putting those words into my mouth. I know it's harder. Tough shit. They got themselves in that hole, and they have to get themselves out if they want to be healthy. And since their poor health, when aggregated at the scale that obesity is at in this country, affects all of us, it's our business too.
Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think. And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical. And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. thats simply false (if by overconsumption you mean consuming more than you need or burn in a day), i eat alot of fast food and sugar and i havent exercised (due to a knee injury) for 3 years, but i havent gained weight, and although i have lost some muscle, i havent gained much fat. Ah, another special snowflake whose magical body defies the laws of physics. Thanks for your anecdote. It's so very valuable and useful. Now give us a detailed journal of daily calories consumed for the past ~4 months, plus routine weigh ins (weekly is okay) and maybe people will actually believe you. If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. They are both based on the persons mental ability to control how much food they intake. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. If those are considered diseases the flip side would be that overeating, not obesity, is a disease. Obesity would simply be a symptom of the overeating "disease". You have no trouble cutting to the heart of the issue when it comes to people who are unhealthily thin, but when it comes to unhealthily fat people you remove personal responsibility from the equation. Why is that? And just to clarify, you are tacitly admitting that my post you called "not true" was actually 100% true and you were mistaken, right? Not to sound like a broken record but I'd like an explicit admission of error from you. No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers. I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease. I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full: "Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong. Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises. In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct.
well unless some other underlying issue is the cause then hes right. and lets be honest, hte vast majority just simply eat too much cause they are lazy/never knew a different style/really dig fastfood or candy etc. yes habits and the constant sugar reward are hard to shake off but that doesnt mean its always on the same level as serious mental illness. if that was the case then most like 99% on this board have a disease cause the are seriously addicted to the internet/games/porn.
most people just stuff way too much shit down their throat cause its convenient/they are used to it. no crazy deep reasons, just a habit you need to change and get through the little time you feel bad cause of it.
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On June 22 2013 06:05 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:53 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:39 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:14 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:02 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think.
And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical.
And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. That is in fact not true, as the body craves food the same way that someone who smokes craves a cigarette. Claiming that someone can just stop being obese by not eating is like saying someone can cure being anorexic by sitting down to a good meal. Both are false. I'm sorry, what did I say that was "not true"? You went off on a little tangent about how tragically difficult it is for fat people to have self control, but nothing you said actually refuted my post. In fact, I am completely correct. On June 22 2013 05:06 TSORG wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think.
And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical.
And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. thats simply false (if by overconsumption you mean consuming more than you need or burn in a day), i eat alot of fast food and sugar and i havent exercised (due to a knee injury) for 3 years, but i havent gained weight, and although i have lost some muscle, i havent gained much fat. Ah, another special snowflake whose magical body defies the laws of physics. Thanks for your anecdote. It's so very valuable and useful. Now give us a detailed journal of daily calories consumed for the past ~4 months, plus routine weigh ins (weekly is okay) and maybe people will actually believe you. If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. They are both based on the persons mental ability to control how much food they intake. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. If those are considered diseases the flip side would be that overeating, not obesity, is a disease. Obesity would simply be a symptom of the overeating "disease". You have no trouble cutting to the heart of the issue when it comes to people who are unhealthily thin, but when it comes to unhealthily fat people you remove personal responsibility from the equation. Why is that? And just to clarify, you are tacitly admitting that my post you called "not true" was actually 100% true and you were mistaken, right? Not to sound like a broken record but I'd like an explicit admission of error from you. No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers. I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease. I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full: "Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong. Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises. In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct. well unless some other underlying issue is the cause then hes right. and lets be honest, hte vast majority just simply eat too much cause they are lazy/never knew a different style/really dig fastfood or candy etc. yes habits and the constant sugar reward are hard to shake off but that doesnt mean its always on the same level as serious mental illness. if that was the case then most like 99% on this board have a disease cause the are seriously addicted to the internet/games/porn. most people just stuff way too much shit down their throat cause its convenient/they are used to it. no crazy deep reasons, just a habit you need to change and get through the little time you feel bad cause of it.
But once again, the AMA doesn't care what the cause is, only how treatment is applied to the health issue. They do not care that people will use the word disease as an excuse socially. Combat related PTSD is caused people joining the armed services and then going to war. All those are personal choices as well, but it is still treated by health care providers as a disordered that requires treatment. The same goes for being obese. They don't care how it happened and are only concerned with how to fix the health issue.
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It's not my fault my grades are bad, I have ADHD
It's not my fault I have a drug addiction, I have a disease
It's not my fault I'm morbidly obese, I have a disease
Because really, who actually wants to be accountable for their actions.
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On June 22 2013 06:11 paradox719 wrote:
It's not my fault my grades are bad, I have ADHD
It's not my fault I have a drug addiction, I have a disease
It's not my fault I'm morbidly obese, I have a disease
Because really, who actually wants to be accountable for their actions.
If they didn't have those labels, they would just find another excuse. But the people who do want to be held accountable and treat those problems(like myself with ADHD) like to have them labeled, studied and the treatment for those things covered by health insurance.
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On June 22 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 05:53 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:39 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:14 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:02 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
If you're seriously comparing the "narcotic" effect that certain foods can have on the brain to the real narcotic effect of narcotics on the brain AND comparing dieting to what people addicted to narcotics go through when they are detoxing, I don't really know what to tell you. I get it that it hurts, physically and mentally, to change your diet severely. It's not just about being hungry, but can manifest itself in other physical symptoms. But it is not detoxing and you can't die from reducing your daily caloric intake from 6,000 calories to 3,000. In fact, if you have the time and the commitment, you can slowly change your diet and exercise habits to lose the weight over time, a luxury that drug addicts rarely have access to if they want to get clean.
And I never said it was as easy for fat people to get in shape than it is for thin people to stay in shape, I'm not sure why you're putting those words into my mouth. I know it's harder. Tough shit. They got themselves in that hole, and they have to get themselves out if they want to be healthy. And since their poor health, when aggregated at the scale that obesity is at in this country, affects all of us, it's our business too.
Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think. And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical. And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. That is in fact not true, as the body craves food the same way that someone who smokes craves a cigarette. Claiming that someone can just stop being obese by not eating is like saying someone can cure being anorexic by sitting down to a good meal. Both are false. I'm sorry, what did I say that was "not true"? You went off on a little tangent about how tragically difficult it is for fat people to have self control, but nothing you said actually refuted my post. In fact, I am completely correct. On June 22 2013 05:06 TSORG wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
If you're seriously comparing the "narcotic" effect that certain foods can have on the brain to the real narcotic effect of narcotics on the brain AND comparing dieting to what people addicted to narcotics go through when they are detoxing, I don't really know what to tell you. I get it that it hurts, physically and mentally, to change your diet severely. It's not just about being hungry, but can manifest itself in other physical symptoms. But it is not detoxing and you can't die from reducing your daily caloric intake from 6,000 calories to 3,000. In fact, if you have the time and the commitment, you can slowly change your diet and exercise habits to lose the weight over time, a luxury that drug addicts rarely have access to if they want to get clean.
And I never said it was as easy for fat people to get in shape than it is for thin people to stay in shape, I'm not sure why you're putting those words into my mouth. I know it's harder. Tough shit. They got themselves in that hole, and they have to get themselves out if they want to be healthy. And since their poor health, when aggregated at the scale that obesity is at in this country, affects all of us, it's our business too.
Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think. And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical. And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. thats simply false (if by overconsumption you mean consuming more than you need or burn in a day), i eat alot of fast food and sugar and i havent exercised (due to a knee injury) for 3 years, but i havent gained weight, and although i have lost some muscle, i havent gained much fat. Ah, another special snowflake whose magical body defies the laws of physics. Thanks for your anecdote. It's so very valuable and useful. Now give us a detailed journal of daily calories consumed for the past ~4 months, plus routine weigh ins (weekly is okay) and maybe people will actually believe you. If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. They are both based on the persons mental ability to control how much food they intake. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. If those are considered diseases the flip side would be that overeating, not obesity, is a disease. Obesity would simply be a symptom of the overeating "disease". You have no trouble cutting to the heart of the issue when it comes to people who are unhealthily thin, but when it comes to unhealthily fat people you remove personal responsibility from the equation. Why is that? And just to clarify, you are tacitly admitting that my post you called "not true" was actually 100% true and you were mistaken, right? Not to sound like a broken record but I'd like an explicit admission of error from you. No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers. I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease. I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full: "Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong. Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises. In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct.
I'm having a hard time carrying a conversation with you because you seem to struggle with basic logic.
Overeating is to obesity as depression is to.... depression? No.
Overeating is to obesity as PTSD is to... PTSD? No.
Your attempts at analogies fail so horrifically I wonder if you are doing it on purpose. I recommend you stop trying to use analogies.
At any rate I am glad you can tacitly acknowledge that my post was 100% factually accurate in every regard, and unassailable from any aspect.
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Thats pretty hilarious. Homosexuality is perfectly normal but obesity is a disease, gotta love the absurd of this world.
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On June 22 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 06:05 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On June 22 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:53 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:39 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:14 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:02 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:
[quote]
Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. That is in fact not true, as the body craves food the same way that someone who smokes craves a cigarette. Claiming that someone can just stop being obese by not eating is like saying someone can cure being anorexic by sitting down to a good meal. Both are false. I'm sorry, what did I say that was "not true"? You went off on a little tangent about how tragically difficult it is for fat people to have self control, but nothing you said actually refuted my post. In fact, I am completely correct. On June 22 2013 05:06 TSORG wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:
[quote]
Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. thats simply false (if by overconsumption you mean consuming more than you need or burn in a day), i eat alot of fast food and sugar and i havent exercised (due to a knee injury) for 3 years, but i havent gained weight, and although i have lost some muscle, i havent gained much fat. Ah, another special snowflake whose magical body defies the laws of physics. Thanks for your anecdote. It's so very valuable and useful. Now give us a detailed journal of daily calories consumed for the past ~4 months, plus routine weigh ins (weekly is okay) and maybe people will actually believe you. If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. They are both based on the persons mental ability to control how much food they intake. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. If those are considered diseases the flip side would be that overeating, not obesity, is a disease. Obesity would simply be a symptom of the overeating "disease". You have no trouble cutting to the heart of the issue when it comes to people who are unhealthily thin, but when it comes to unhealthily fat people you remove personal responsibility from the equation. Why is that? And just to clarify, you are tacitly admitting that my post you called "not true" was actually 100% true and you were mistaken, right? Not to sound like a broken record but I'd like an explicit admission of error from you. No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers. I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease. I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full: "Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong. Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises. In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct. well unless some other underlying issue is the cause then hes right. and lets be honest, hte vast majority just simply eat too much cause they are lazy/never knew a different style/really dig fastfood or candy etc. yes habits and the constant sugar reward are hard to shake off but that doesnt mean its always on the same level as serious mental illness. if that was the case then most like 99% on this board have a disease cause the are seriously addicted to the internet/games/porn. most people just stuff way too much shit down their throat cause its convenient/they are used to it. no crazy deep reasons, just a habit you need to change and get through the little time you feel bad cause of it. But once again, the AMA doesn't care what the cause is, only how treatment is applied to the health issue. They do not care that people will use the word disease as an excuse socially. Combat related PTSD is caused people joining the armed services and then going to war. All those are personal choices as well, but it is still treated by health care providers as a disordered that requires treatment. The same goes for being obese. They don't care how it happened and are only concerned with how to fix the health issue.
But obesity is just a symptom at best. The actual "disease" we are talking about here is gluttony.
In an attempt to excuse personal responsibility people are attacking the symptom (weight gain) instead of the problem (overeating).
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Obesity is a disease.Even if it is self inflicting by overeating it is still a desease just as suicide is.Considering the imense number of deaths and health issues deriving form obsesity I do believe that people with both natural and self inflicted disorders should consult a specialist
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On June 22 2013 06:00 TSORG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 05:20 Heavenlee wrote:On June 22 2013 05:06 TSORG wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:57 Klondikebar wrote:On June 22 2013 03:40 ZasZ. wrote:On June 22 2013 03:31 TheRealPaciFist wrote:On June 21 2013 03:56 Fruscainte wrote:
[quote]
I'm going to have to agree here. It's a mental condition if anything. I had experience with this, and it really is nothing more than that. You know you shouldn't eat that food. You know it's bad for you. You know if you don't eat it you'll be under your caloric intake for that day and you'll be on the right track but your brain just fucking forces you man. It's honestly a terrible experience, and a lot of physically fit people who've never had to deal with being obese/overweight will never understand that. It takes an incredible amount of mental fortitude to lose weight because for the first couple of weeks it genuinely feels like you are starving yourself even if you're still taking in 3000 calories per day and your body becomes so accustomed to it you start to freaking break down at times.
I don't know how they got to the conclusion that this is a disease, but anything to provide more awareness is good in my book as far as I'm concerned though. On June 21 2013 04:06 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
Your logic kind of breaks down when you get to sexually transmitted diseases. Aside from rape, a person who contracts an STD did so due to their own carelessness or complacency, but STD's are still very real diseases.
It really comes down to how you define the word disease, and whether or not victims act like victims or act like survivors. People are right in that too many people use "I'm sick! Alcoholism/Obesity/Drug Addiction is a disease!" as an excuse to be apathetic in their recovery, like it's out of their control. That's wrong, and the AMA would do well to clarify and say that just because obesity is a disease, it does not mean you have an excuse to stay obese.
But if you look at the condition medically, I have a hard time calling it a "disease." Alcoholism has very specific, well-researched effects on the mind and body, especially when the person is deprived of alcohol. In that way you can suffer from the disease of alcoholism. It doesn't mean that person should be pitied or excuses should be made for them because of their condition, it just is what it is.
If this designation of obesity as a disease puts more money into the hands of people that can actually reduce the percentage of Americans who are obese, I have no qualms with the promotion. If all this does is cause more people to be excessively overweight, stressing out our medical infrastructure and explaining away their self-abuse by saying they have a disease, then we have a problem.
It all comes from the preconception that we have, for whatever reason, that a person who suffers from a disease should be pitied, no matter the disease or circumstances behind it. A child with Leukemia or a young woman with breast cancer should be pitied. The 60-year old chain smoker with lung cancer and the 350 lb man who needs a quadruple bypass should not. But they all have diseases that require treatment, whether we like it or not. From the way people are describing it, I keep getting the impression that obesity is (ignoring for a moment the cases where it is an actual disease, a la glanular disorder) an addiction, and they're classifying addictions as diseases. I'm coming from a different realm of addiction, and "You know you shouldn't eat that food. You know it's bad for you. You know if you don't eat it you'll be under your caloric intake for that day and you'll be on the right track but your brain just fucking forces you man. It's honestly a terrible experience, and a lot of physically fit people who've never had to deal with being obese/overweight will never understand that. It takes an incredible amount of mental fortitude to lose weight because for the first couple of weeks it genuinely feels like you are starving yourself even if you're still taking in 3000 calories per day and your body becomes so accustomed to it you start to freaking break down at times." strikes a freaking bone with me, it sounds exactly what I go through with regards to my completely not-food-related addiction But obesity is an addiction like video gaming or porn are addictions. You feel compelled to do it mentally or psychologically, but you won't go through the withdrawal symptoms that an alcoholic or heroin addict go through if you start eating less. There is a legitimate physiological effect that drug addiction has on the body beyond just putting on a few pounds, which is why I have no problem classifying them as diseases. Withdrawal symptoms from certain drugs are capable of killing people and I don't think the same can be said of dieting. That's incredibly false. Certain foods like high amounts of sugar, release pleasure hormones in your brain. "Food" in general isn't an addiction but there are certain combinations of fat, sugar, and salt (conveniently found in almost every fast food item) that absolutely has a narcotic effect on the brain. And one of the reasons dieting is so hard is precisely because of the withdrawl symptoms. The first few days or weeks of your diet are MISERABLE because your brain is literally releasing fewer happy hormones. One of the reasons it's so easy for skinny people to stay skinny or just lose a couple of pounds and it's so hard for fat people to get skinny is because of those symptoms. There is an element of discipline that can't be ignored but I'm shocked at how many people in this thread have such strong opinions without knowing any of the medical science that went into this decision. If you're seriously comparing the "narcotic" effect that certain foods can have on the brain to the real narcotic effect of narcotics on the brain AND comparing dieting to what people addicted to narcotics go through when they are detoxing, I don't really know what to tell you. I get it that it hurts, physically and mentally, to change your diet severely. It's not just about being hungry, but can manifest itself in other physical symptoms. But it is not detoxing and you can't die from reducing your daily caloric intake from 6,000 calories to 3,000. In fact, if you have the time and the commitment, you can slowly change your diet and exercise habits to lose the weight over time, a luxury that drug addicts rarely have access to if they want to get clean. And I never said it was as easy for fat people to get in shape than it is for thin people to stay in shape, I'm not sure why you're putting those words into my mouth. I know it's harder. Tough shit. They got themselves in that hole, and they have to get themselves out if they want to be healthy. And since their poor health, when aggregated at the scale that obesity is at in this country, affects all of us, it's our business too. Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think. And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical. And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. thats simply false (if by overconsumption you mean consuming more than you need or burn in a day), i eat alot of fast food and sugar and i havent exercised (due to a knee injury) for 3 years, but i havent gained weight, and although i have lost some muscle, i havent gained much fat. Fascinating stuff, because I actually do count my calories instead of just saying "I eat a lot of food" and know exactly how much I eat, and when I eat my maintenance I don't gain weight, when I eat below it I lose weight, and when I eat above it I gain weight. It's like magic or something. EDIT: And by the way, pretty sure the entire fitness community, especially bodybuilders who diet for shows, will give their own anecdotes that mirror mine. Except theirs are based on actually measuring how much they're eating. i pity you then, if you truly count every calory.
Why? It's a pain in the ass in the beginning but eventually as you plan your meals you only rarely need to keep actively counting. I generally have the same thing every morning for breakfast and lunch so I really only need to worry about my dinner. And since I cook for myself I eat whatever I put into a recipe, not too hard.
I'd like to think it's my charming personality and winning smile that helps me in the ladies department but an 8 pack doesn't hurt. Honestly it's pretty low maintenance once you get below your goal BF%. At this point I mainly count out my calorie intake so that I don't go hella under on my long ride days.
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This thread is a perfect example of how people will get easily upset about anything, the actual article is about how you can now go make a doctor's appointment and get a weight loss plan from a medical professional and it will be under your insurance, this is pretty much unarguably a Good Thing, as before people don't want to pay for a doctor's appointment if insurance doesn't cover it, so they're vulnerable to all sorts of weight loss scams.
This really has nothing to do with responsibility or anything, people just like to get mad.
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On June 22 2013 06:22 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:53 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:39 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:14 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:02 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think.
And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical.
And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. That is in fact not true, as the body craves food the same way that someone who smokes craves a cigarette. Claiming that someone can just stop being obese by not eating is like saying someone can cure being anorexic by sitting down to a good meal. Both are false. I'm sorry, what did I say that was "not true"? You went off on a little tangent about how tragically difficult it is for fat people to have self control, but nothing you said actually refuted my post. In fact, I am completely correct. On June 22 2013 05:06 TSORG wrote:On June 22 2013 04:57 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 04:40 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Of course you don't know what to tell me. You're talking outside of your area of expertise. You're just saying they're different because you've heard they're different even though science has demonstrated that they're far more similar than you think.
And to the post above me, I have read the story. The concern is about increasing government involvement in healthcare and that healthcare may get more expensive because of insurance now paying for obesity treatment. Their concerns weren't medical.
And saying that obesity isn't a disease because it's caused by overeating is like saying lung cancer isn't a disease because it's caused by smoking. Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it. On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat. thats simply false (if by overconsumption you mean consuming more than you need or burn in a day), i eat alot of fast food and sugar and i havent exercised (due to a knee injury) for 3 years, but i havent gained weight, and although i have lost some muscle, i havent gained much fat. Ah, another special snowflake whose magical body defies the laws of physics. Thanks for your anecdote. It's so very valuable and useful. Now give us a detailed journal of daily calories consumed for the past ~4 months, plus routine weigh ins (weekly is okay) and maybe people will actually believe you. If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. They are both based on the persons mental ability to control how much food they intake. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. If those are considered diseases the flip side would be that overeating, not obesity, is a disease. Obesity would simply be a symptom of the overeating "disease". You have no trouble cutting to the heart of the issue when it comes to people who are unhealthily thin, but when it comes to unhealthily fat people you remove personal responsibility from the equation. Why is that? And just to clarify, you are tacitly admitting that my post you called "not true" was actually 100% true and you were mistaken, right? Not to sound like a broken record but I'd like an explicit admission of error from you. No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers. I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease. I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full: "Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong. Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises. In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct. I'm having a hard time carrying a conversation with you because you seem to struggle with basic logic. Overeating is to obesity as depression is to.... depression? No. Overeating is to obesity as PTSD is to... PTSD? No. Your attempts at analogies fail so horrifically I wonder if you are doing it on purpose. I recommend you stop trying to use analogies. At any rate I am glad you can tacitly acknowledge that my post was 100% factually accurate in every regard, and unassailable from any aspect.
Arguments with people such as yourself are pointless. Discussion is not your aim, but to brow beat the other party into submission with overly simplistic statements and boiling down complex issues to a mathematical sort of logic. Concepts such as intent, nuance and context are lost on you. Your goal is to claim victory over the other party, rather than discuss any issue.
So yes, eating lots of food makes you fat and if you eat less food, you may lose weight. You have proven that fact and no one can dispute it.
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EPT
