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On June 22 2013 05:56 nerdraging.610 wrote:
most of america isnt even fat.
some scientist came up with a perfect weight to height ratio so if you are in those bounds, you arn't fat, but a pound over you are obese, i dont follow AMA they are a bunch of idiots that get paid our tax dollars to come up with bull!@#$.
Yeah, this is a good point that hasn't been discussed much. Obesity is based on BMI, which is incredibly flawed. I know a guy who works out every day, he can out run me, out lift me, everything. But he's technically overweight, according to BMI.
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I have a BMI of about 27.6, so in theory I am overweight (although as has been pointed out this does not say much at all, as I have much wider statue as many others). I demand being allowed to park in handycapped parking spots, because my genetic disease handycaps my ability of movement to severe degrees and I cannot be expected having to walk that far!
seriously, declaring it a disease does not really help in the long run. It might ease some actions, but only for taking care of the damage, not of the source. I would rather see much stricter control of food and its ingredients. Greed and competition has led to a an increase of ingredients that boost appetite, cheap filling material, some aroma to taste as good as possible, a ton of stuff that just helps to keep the food in shape such as emulsifier, plus preversative materials to keep the food from rotting for years, especially in fast food restaurants, but present in more stuff than one would imagine. This mixture pretty much HAS to transform the average person into a fatty, with the exception of few gifted with a body that can process much of anything without gaining weight and those who seek regular exercise.
I also do understand that some people just have genetics to be slightly more overweight than others, but that is no absolvation to weight double as much as one should with comparable size/statue.
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On June 22 2013 06:26 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:05 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On June 22 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:53 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:39 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:14 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:02 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
That is in fact not true, as the body craves food the same way that someone who smokes craves a cigarette. Claiming that someone can just stop being obese by not eating is like saying someone can cure being anorexic by sitting down to a good meal. Both are false. I'm sorry, what did I say that was "not true"? You went off on a little tangent about how tragically difficult it is for fat people to have self control, but nothing you said actually refuted my post. In fact, I am completely correct. On June 22 2013 05:06 TSORG wrote:
[quote]
thats simply false (if by overconsumption you mean consuming more than you need or burn in a day), i eat alot of fast food and sugar and i havent exercised (due to a knee injury) for 3 years, but i havent gained weight, and although i have lost some muscle, i havent gained much fat.
Ah, another special snowflake whose magical body defies the laws of physics. Thanks for your anecdote. It's so very valuable and useful. Now give us a detailed journal of daily calories consumed for the past ~4 months, plus routine weigh ins (weekly is okay) and maybe people will actually believe you. If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. They are both based on the persons mental ability to control how much food they intake. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. If those are considered diseases the flip side would be that overeating, not obesity, is a disease. Obesity would simply be a symptom of the overeating "disease". You have no trouble cutting to the heart of the issue when it comes to people who are unhealthily thin, but when it comes to unhealthily fat people you remove personal responsibility from the equation. Why is that? And just to clarify, you are tacitly admitting that my post you called "not true" was actually 100% true and you were mistaken, right? Not to sound like a broken record but I'd like an explicit admission of error from you. No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers. I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease. I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full: "Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong. Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises. In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct. well unless some other underlying issue is the cause then hes right. and lets be honest, hte vast majority just simply eat too much cause they are lazy/never knew a different style/really dig fastfood or candy etc. yes habits and the constant sugar reward are hard to shake off but that doesnt mean its always on the same level as serious mental illness. if that was the case then most like 99% on this board have a disease cause the are seriously addicted to the internet/games/porn. most people just stuff way too much shit down their throat cause its convenient/they are used to it. no crazy deep reasons, just a habit you need to change and get through the little time you feel bad cause of it. But once again, the AMA doesn't care what the cause is, only how treatment is applied to the health issue. They do not care that people will use the word disease as an excuse socially. Combat related PTSD is caused people joining the armed services and then going to war. All those are personal choices as well, but it is still treated by health care providers as a disordered that requires treatment. The same goes for being obese. They don't care how it happened and are only concerned with how to fix the health issue. But obesity is just a symptom at best. The actual "disease" we are talking about here is gluttony. In an attempt to excuse personal responsibility people are attacking the symptom (weight gain) instead of the problem (overeating).
You are dead set on trolling this thread. You points and posts have nothing to do with the AMA reasoning or the why they would label obesity as a disease. Your only purpose is to demand that people admit that gaining weight it do to eating to much. which is a give in. If that is your only goal, please leave. No one wants to have such a simplistic debate.
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Kind of off-topic but I think it is a mistake to blame quantity of food rather than quality. Give someone 1000 calories worth of steak and potatoes and they will be full if not stuffed. However, add on to that a soda plus sauces and dressings full of oil and sugar and you can easily add 500+ calories without getting more full. I would say the staples of a typical American diet are not starch, meat and vegetables, but oil, sugar and salt.
There's a world of difference between hand crafted pasta and microwave mac and cheese. The problem is that the latter is cheap and considered "the norm". It is ironic that the country has so much wealth yet such an abundance of shitty, non nutritious food. If people live only on stuff like mac and cheese, it is no wonder they feel constantly hungry and tired and thus start taking in excess calories.
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On June 22 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 06:26 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:05 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On June 22 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:53 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:39 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:14 Zaqwe wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, what did I say that was "not true"?
You went off on a little tangent about how tragically difficult it is for fat people to have self control, but nothing you said actually refuted my post.
In fact, I am completely correct.
[quote]
Ah, another special snowflake whose magical body defies the laws of physics.
Thanks for your anecdote. It's so very valuable and useful.
Now give us a detailed journal of daily calories consumed for the past ~4 months, plus routine weigh ins (weekly is okay) and maybe people will actually believe you. If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. They are both based on the persons mental ability to control how much food they intake. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. If those are considered diseases the flip side would be that overeating, not obesity, is a disease. Obesity would simply be a symptom of the overeating "disease". You have no trouble cutting to the heart of the issue when it comes to people who are unhealthily thin, but when it comes to unhealthily fat people you remove personal responsibility from the equation. Why is that? And just to clarify, you are tacitly admitting that my post you called "not true" was actually 100% true and you were mistaken, right? Not to sound like a broken record but I'd like an explicit admission of error from you. No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers. I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease. I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full: "Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong. Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises. In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct. well unless some other underlying issue is the cause then hes right. and lets be honest, hte vast majority just simply eat too much cause they are lazy/never knew a different style/really dig fastfood or candy etc. yes habits and the constant sugar reward are hard to shake off but that doesnt mean its always on the same level as serious mental illness. if that was the case then most like 99% on this board have a disease cause the are seriously addicted to the internet/games/porn. most people just stuff way too much shit down their throat cause its convenient/they are used to it. no crazy deep reasons, just a habit you need to change and get through the little time you feel bad cause of it. But once again, the AMA doesn't care what the cause is, only how treatment is applied to the health issue. They do not care that people will use the word disease as an excuse socially. Combat related PTSD is caused people joining the armed services and then going to war. All those are personal choices as well, but it is still treated by health care providers as a disordered that requires treatment. The same goes for being obese. They don't care how it happened and are only concerned with how to fix the health issue. But obesity is just a symptom at best. The actual "disease" we are talking about here is gluttony. In an attempt to excuse personal responsibility people are attacking the symptom (weight gain) instead of the problem (overeating). You are dead set on trolling this thread. You points and posts have nothing to do with the AMA reasoning or the why they would label obesity as a disease. Your only purpose is to demand that people admit that gaining weight it do to eating to much. which is a give in. If that is your only goal, please leave. No one wants to have such a simplistic debate.
I think his point is one of the best that's been presented in this thread, namely, that behavior is the problem here, not the signs of the behavior. Focusing on the signs and not the behavior reduces personal responsibility and creates a moral hazard which can increase it's occurrence.
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On June 22 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 06:26 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:05 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On June 22 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:53 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:39 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:14 Zaqwe wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, what did I say that was "not true"?
You went off on a little tangent about how tragically difficult it is for fat people to have self control, but nothing you said actually refuted my post.
In fact, I am completely correct.
[quote]
Ah, another special snowflake whose magical body defies the laws of physics.
Thanks for your anecdote. It's so very valuable and useful.
Now give us a detailed journal of daily calories consumed for the past ~4 months, plus routine weigh ins (weekly is okay) and maybe people will actually believe you. If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. They are both based on the persons mental ability to control how much food they intake. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. If those are considered diseases the flip side would be that overeating, not obesity, is a disease. Obesity would simply be a symptom of the overeating "disease". You have no trouble cutting to the heart of the issue when it comes to people who are unhealthily thin, but when it comes to unhealthily fat people you remove personal responsibility from the equation. Why is that? And just to clarify, you are tacitly admitting that my post you called "not true" was actually 100% true and you were mistaken, right? Not to sound like a broken record but I'd like an explicit admission of error from you. No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers. I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease. I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full: "Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong. Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises. In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct. well unless some other underlying issue is the cause then hes right. and lets be honest, hte vast majority just simply eat too much cause they are lazy/never knew a different style/really dig fastfood or candy etc. yes habits and the constant sugar reward are hard to shake off but that doesnt mean its always on the same level as serious mental illness. if that was the case then most like 99% on this board have a disease cause the are seriously addicted to the internet/games/porn. most people just stuff way too much shit down their throat cause its convenient/they are used to it. no crazy deep reasons, just a habit you need to change and get through the little time you feel bad cause of it. But once again, the AMA doesn't care what the cause is, only how treatment is applied to the health issue. They do not care that people will use the word disease as an excuse socially. Combat related PTSD is caused people joining the armed services and then going to war. All those are personal choices as well, but it is still treated by health care providers as a disordered that requires treatment. The same goes for being obese. They don't care how it happened and are only concerned with how to fix the health issue. But obesity is just a symptom at best. The actual "disease" we are talking about here is gluttony. In an attempt to excuse personal responsibility people are attacking the symptom (weight gain) instead of the problem (overeating). You are dead set on trolling this thread. You points and posts have nothing to do with the AMA reasoning or the why they would label obesity as a disease. Your only purpose is to demand that people admit that gaining weight it do to eating to much. which is a give in. If that is your only goal, please leave. No one wants to have such a simplistic debate.
I don't consider it "trolling" to point out that obesity is caused by eating habits. People are personally responsible for what they put in their mouth, unless they are orally raped.
People are way too sensitive these days. Every personal shortcoming always has to be excused as the result of some external factor (disease, oppression, discrimination, etc.) instead of just admitting some people are lazy, gluttonous, or unmotivated.
Fat people are not afflicted by some external factor outside of their control. Even if they have a real medical problem that makes them prone to obesity--to be realistic, most fat people don't have such problems--they still make the final decision as to what and how much they eat.
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On June 22 2013 06:40 datcirclejerk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 05:56 nerdraging.610 wrote:
most of america isnt even fat.
some scientist came up with a perfect weight to height ratio so if you are in those bounds, you arn't fat, but a pound over you are obese, i dont follow AMA they are a bunch of idiots that get paid our tax dollars to come up with bull!@#$. Yeah, this is a good point that hasn't been discussed much. Obesity is based on BMI, which is incredibly flawed. I know a guy who works out every day, he can out run me, out lift me, everything. But he's technically overweight, according to BMI.
Scientists came up with that classification based on long-term health outcomes associated obesity/overweight. BMI, while imperfect, is the best metric when cost is taken into account. CDC guidelines for obesity/overweight:
"There are a number of accurate methods to assess body fat (e.g., total body water, total body potassium, bioelectrical impedance, and dual- energy X-ray absorptiometry), but no trial data exist to indicate that one measure of fatness is better than any other for following overweight and obese patients during treatment. Since measuring body fat by these techniques is often expensive and is not readily available, a more practical approach for the clinical setting is the measurement of BMI; epidemiological and observational studies have shown that BMI provides an acceptable approximation of total body fat for the majority of patients. Because there are no published studies that compare the effectiveness of different measures for evaluating changes in body fat during weight reduction, the panel bases its recommendation on expert judgment from clinical experience."
From: http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/ob_gdlns.htm
BMI is not a helpful metric for all individuals, but it is the best metric for alerting physicians that an individual might have a weight problem that could cause long-term health problems.
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Mo money for doctors, decided by... doctors, what a coincidence
as it states, the designation of obesity as a disease simply means that more patients can be reimbursed for it, through government or insurance..ie doctors make more money by "treating" it ...this will also likely raise the cost of insurance for people labeled as overweight/obese because insurance will be paying more money for it (they don't eat costs, they pass them on to you).
if you are overweight or obese, you know it. You can blame it on genetics, call it a disease, or w.e you want, but it doesn't change your weight. If you want to be healthy, you need to be proactive and work at it, some more than others (life isn't fair).
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On June 22 2013 06:11 paradox719 wrote:
It's not my fault my grades are bad, I have ADHD
It's not my fault I have a drug addiction, I have a disease
It's not my fault I'm morbidly obese, I have a disease
Because really, who actually wants to be accountable for their actions.
No one is truly acountable.
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On June 22 2013 06:51 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:26 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:05 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On June 22 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:53 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:39 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:22 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
If under-eating and self starvation can be considered a disease, the same goes for over eating. They are both based on the persons mental ability to control how much food they intake. It being a disease does not mean anything beyond how it is treated by the health care industry and the coverage people get. Self control has nothing to do with the discussion, it factors little into the reasoning why the AMA classified being obese as a disease. If those are considered diseases the flip side would be that overeating, not obesity, is a disease. Obesity would simply be a symptom of the overeating "disease". You have no trouble cutting to the heart of the issue when it comes to people who are unhealthily thin, but when it comes to unhealthily fat people you remove personal responsibility from the equation. Why is that? And just to clarify, you are tacitly admitting that my post you called "not true" was actually 100% true and you were mistaken, right? Not to sound like a broken record but I'd like an explicit admission of error from you. No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers. I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease. I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full: "Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong. Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises. In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct. well unless some other underlying issue is the cause then hes right. and lets be honest, hte vast majority just simply eat too much cause they are lazy/never knew a different style/really dig fastfood or candy etc. yes habits and the constant sugar reward are hard to shake off but that doesnt mean its always on the same level as serious mental illness. if that was the case then most like 99% on this board have a disease cause the are seriously addicted to the internet/games/porn. most people just stuff way too much shit down their throat cause its convenient/they are used to it. no crazy deep reasons, just a habit you need to change and get through the little time you feel bad cause of it. But once again, the AMA doesn't care what the cause is, only how treatment is applied to the health issue. They do not care that people will use the word disease as an excuse socially. Combat related PTSD is caused people joining the armed services and then going to war. All those are personal choices as well, but it is still treated by health care providers as a disordered that requires treatment. The same goes for being obese. They don't care how it happened and are only concerned with how to fix the health issue. But obesity is just a symptom at best. The actual "disease" we are talking about here is gluttony. In an attempt to excuse personal responsibility people are attacking the symptom (weight gain) instead of the problem (overeating). You are dead set on trolling this thread. You points and posts have nothing to do with the AMA reasoning or the why they would label obesity as a disease. Your only purpose is to demand that people admit that gaining weight it do to eating to much. which is a give in. If that is your only goal, please leave. No one wants to have such a simplistic debate. I don't consider it "trolling" to point out that obesity is caused by eating habits. People are personally responsible for what they put in their mouth, unless they are orally raped. People are way too sensitive these days. Every personal shortcoming always has to be excused as the result of some external factor (disease, oppression, discrimination, etc.) instead of just admitting some people are lazy, gluttonous, or unmotivated. Fat people are not afflicted by some external factor outside of their control. Even if they have a real medical problem that makes them prone to obesity--to be realistic, most fat people don't have such problems--they still make the final decision as to what and how much they eat.
The problem is that medically diseases aren't "some external factor outside their control." Hypertension? Within your control. Diabetes? Within your control. Calling it a disease doesn't excuse it, or make it any less of an issue. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what a disease is.
If anything, the stigmatization of "being diseased" is more of a negative factor to discourage a given behavior.
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On June 22 2013 07:12 Prplppleatr wrote:
Mo money for doctors, decided by... doctors, what a coincidence
as it states, the designation of obesity as a disease simply means that more patients can be reimbursed for it, through government or insurance..ie doctors make more money by "treating" it ...this will also likely raise the cost of insurance for people labeled as overweight/obese because insurance will be paying more money for it (they don't eat costs, they pass them on to you).
if you are overweight or obese, you know it. You can blame it on genetics, call it a disease, or w.e you want, but it doesn't change your weight. If you want to be healthy, you need to be proactive and work at it, some more than others (life isn't fair).
More like more money for insurance companies, hospitals, and bureaucrats. The government certainly will not be helped by this; obesity is an incredible economic drain on medicare and Medicaid because of the high cost of obese patients. I don't see the disease designation reducing costs on those programs. Also, many overweight/obese individuals are not actually aware of their health situation. Overweight/obese families have a different view of normal weight.
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On June 22 2013 07:44 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 06:51 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:26 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:05 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On June 22 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:53 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:39 Zaqwe wrote:
[quote]
If those are considered diseases the flip side would be that overeating, not obesity, is a disease. Obesity would simply be a symptom of the overeating "disease".
You have no trouble cutting to the heart of the issue when it comes to people who are unhealthily thin, but when it comes to unhealthily fat people you remove personal responsibility from the equation. Why is that?
And just to clarify, you are tacitly admitting that my post you called "not true" was actually 100% true and you were mistaken, right? Not to sound like a broken record but I'd like an explicit admission of error from you. No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers. I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease. I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full: "Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong. Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises. In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct. well unless some other underlying issue is the cause then hes right. and lets be honest, hte vast majority just simply eat too much cause they are lazy/never knew a different style/really dig fastfood or candy etc. yes habits and the constant sugar reward are hard to shake off but that doesnt mean its always on the same level as serious mental illness. if that was the case then most like 99% on this board have a disease cause the are seriously addicted to the internet/games/porn. most people just stuff way too much shit down their throat cause its convenient/they are used to it. no crazy deep reasons, just a habit you need to change and get through the little time you feel bad cause of it. But once again, the AMA doesn't care what the cause is, only how treatment is applied to the health issue. They do not care that people will use the word disease as an excuse socially. Combat related PTSD is caused people joining the armed services and then going to war. All those are personal choices as well, but it is still treated by health care providers as a disordered that requires treatment. The same goes for being obese. They don't care how it happened and are only concerned with how to fix the health issue. But obesity is just a symptom at best. The actual "disease" we are talking about here is gluttony. In an attempt to excuse personal responsibility people are attacking the symptom (weight gain) instead of the problem (overeating). You are dead set on trolling this thread. You points and posts have nothing to do with the AMA reasoning or the why they would label obesity as a disease. Your only purpose is to demand that people admit that gaining weight it do to eating to much. which is a give in. If that is your only goal, please leave. No one wants to have such a simplistic debate. I don't consider it "trolling" to point out that obesity is caused by eating habits. People are personally responsible for what they put in their mouth, unless they are orally raped. People are way too sensitive these days. Every personal shortcoming always has to be excused as the result of some external factor (disease, oppression, discrimination, etc.) instead of just admitting some people are lazy, gluttonous, or unmotivated. Fat people are not afflicted by some external factor outside of their control. Even if they have a real medical problem that makes them prone to obesity--to be realistic, most fat people don't have such problems--they still make the final decision as to what and how much they eat. The problem is that medically diseases aren't "some external factor outside their control." Hypertension? Within your control. Diabetes? Within your control. Calling it a disease doesn't excuse it, or make it any less of an issue. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what a disease is. If anything, the stigmatization of "being diseased" is more of a negative factor to discourage a given behavior.
When I look up definitions of disease they say things like: "impairs normal functioning", "interruption of the normal structure or function", "abnormal condition", etc.
So by those definitions I would still argue that obesity is not a disease. It is actually completely normal to gain weight when you eat too much. And when they stop overeating, they return to normal weight because their normal bodily function has not actually been interrupted at all.
Is sunburn a disease? It's not good to have a sunburn, and it carries health risks like skin cancer, but it is a completely natural and expected result of getting too much sun without sunscreen.
Diabetes is abnormal functioning of the body and requires treatment. It's not a completely natural and guaranteed result of a specific behaviour.
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On June 22 2013 07:59 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 07:44 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 22 2013 06:51 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:26 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:05 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On June 22 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:53 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
No you're still wrong. Personal responsibility and the reasons why people gain to much weight has nothing to do with the AMA decision to label being obese as disease. They are not concerned with that and it has little to do with the argument. Being labeled a disease is so treating it will be covered by health care providers.
I can give myself diabetes by eating to much sugar over a longer period of time. Self inflected or not, it is still considered a disease. I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full: "Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong. Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises. In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct. well unless some other underlying issue is the cause then hes right. and lets be honest, hte vast majority just simply eat too much cause they are lazy/never knew a different style/really dig fastfood or candy etc. yes habits and the constant sugar reward are hard to shake off but that doesnt mean its always on the same level as serious mental illness. if that was the case then most like 99% on this board have a disease cause the are seriously addicted to the internet/games/porn. most people just stuff way too much shit down their throat cause its convenient/they are used to it. no crazy deep reasons, just a habit you need to change and get through the little time you feel bad cause of it. But once again, the AMA doesn't care what the cause is, only how treatment is applied to the health issue. They do not care that people will use the word disease as an excuse socially. Combat related PTSD is caused people joining the armed services and then going to war. All those are personal choices as well, but it is still treated by health care providers as a disordered that requires treatment. The same goes for being obese. They don't care how it happened and are only concerned with how to fix the health issue. But obesity is just a symptom at best. The actual "disease" we are talking about here is gluttony. In an attempt to excuse personal responsibility people are attacking the symptom (weight gain) instead of the problem (overeating). You are dead set on trolling this thread. You points and posts have nothing to do with the AMA reasoning or the why they would label obesity as a disease. Your only purpose is to demand that people admit that gaining weight it do to eating to much. which is a give in. If that is your only goal, please leave. No one wants to have such a simplistic debate. I don't consider it "trolling" to point out that obesity is caused by eating habits. People are personally responsible for what they put in their mouth, unless they are orally raped. People are way too sensitive these days. Every personal shortcoming always has to be excused as the result of some external factor (disease, oppression, discrimination, etc.) instead of just admitting some people are lazy, gluttonous, or unmotivated. Fat people are not afflicted by some external factor outside of their control. Even if they have a real medical problem that makes them prone to obesity--to be realistic, most fat people don't have such problems--they still make the final decision as to what and how much they eat. The problem is that medically diseases aren't "some external factor outside their control." Hypertension? Within your control. Diabetes? Within your control. Calling it a disease doesn't excuse it, or make it any less of an issue. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what a disease is. If anything, the stigmatization of "being diseased" is more of a negative factor to discourage a given behavior. When I look up definitions of disease they say things like: "impairs normal functioning", "interruption of the normal structure or function", "abnormal condition", etc. So by those definitions I would still argue that obesity is not a disease. It is actually completely normal to gain weight when you eat too much. And when they stop overeating, they return to normal weight because their normal bodily function has not actually been interrupted at all. Is sunburn a disease? It's not good to have a sunburn, and it carries health risks like skin cancer, but it is a completely natural and expected result of getting too much sun without sunscreen. Diabetes is abnormal functioning of the body and requires treatment. It's not a completely natural and guaranteed result of a specific behaviour.
Obesity impairs normal function, it affects almost all of the systems of the body. Compared to normally functioning people, it IS an abnormal condition.
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On June 22 2013 08:14 gmarshall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 07:59 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 07:44 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 22 2013 06:51 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:26 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:05 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On June 22 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 05:53 Zaqwe wrote:
[quote]
I'm going to go ahead and quote my post which you said was "not true" verbatim and in full:
"Although smoking can cause lung cancer, quitting smoking certainly does not cure it.
"On the contrary this obesity "disease" is guaranteed to result from over consumption of calories and will immediately be "cured" if the afflicted person stops cramming so much food down their throat."
Please be very specific and show me what, if anything, is not true in the above quoted text. Otherwise admit you are wrong. Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises. In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct. well unless some other underlying issue is the cause then hes right. and lets be honest, hte vast majority just simply eat too much cause they are lazy/never knew a different style/really dig fastfood or candy etc. yes habits and the constant sugar reward are hard to shake off but that doesnt mean its always on the same level as serious mental illness. if that was the case then most like 99% on this board have a disease cause the are seriously addicted to the internet/games/porn. most people just stuff way too much shit down their throat cause its convenient/they are used to it. no crazy deep reasons, just a habit you need to change and get through the little time you feel bad cause of it. But once again, the AMA doesn't care what the cause is, only how treatment is applied to the health issue. They do not care that people will use the word disease as an excuse socially. Combat related PTSD is caused people joining the armed services and then going to war. All those are personal choices as well, but it is still treated by health care providers as a disordered that requires treatment. The same goes for being obese. They don't care how it happened and are only concerned with how to fix the health issue. But obesity is just a symptom at best. The actual "disease" we are talking about here is gluttony. In an attempt to excuse personal responsibility people are attacking the symptom (weight gain) instead of the problem (overeating). You are dead set on trolling this thread. You points and posts have nothing to do with the AMA reasoning or the why they would label obesity as a disease. Your only purpose is to demand that people admit that gaining weight it do to eating to much. which is a give in. If that is your only goal, please leave. No one wants to have such a simplistic debate. I don't consider it "trolling" to point out that obesity is caused by eating habits. People are personally responsible for what they put in their mouth, unless they are orally raped. People are way too sensitive these days. Every personal shortcoming always has to be excused as the result of some external factor (disease, oppression, discrimination, etc.) instead of just admitting some people are lazy, gluttonous, or unmotivated. Fat people are not afflicted by some external factor outside of their control. Even if they have a real medical problem that makes them prone to obesity--to be realistic, most fat people don't have such problems--they still make the final decision as to what and how much they eat. The problem is that medically diseases aren't "some external factor outside their control." Hypertension? Within your control. Diabetes? Within your control. Calling it a disease doesn't excuse it, or make it any less of an issue. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what a disease is. If anything, the stigmatization of "being diseased" is more of a negative factor to discourage a given behavior. When I look up definitions of disease they say things like: "impairs normal functioning", "interruption of the normal structure or function", "abnormal condition", etc. So by those definitions I would still argue that obesity is not a disease. It is actually completely normal to gain weight when you eat too much. And when they stop overeating, they return to normal weight because their normal bodily function has not actually been interrupted at all. Is sunburn a disease? It's not good to have a sunburn, and it carries health risks like skin cancer, but it is a completely natural and expected result of getting too much sun without sunscreen. Diabetes is abnormal functioning of the body and requires treatment. It's not a completely natural and guaranteed result of a specific behaviour. Obesity impairs normal function, it affects almost all of the systems of the body. Compared to normally functioning people, it IS an abnormal condition.
Normal body functions only become impaired after obesity has caused a real disease, like heart disease or diabetes. Until then their body is working just as every other human body does.
It's a risk factor for disease but not a disease itself.
The longer I let this dictionary definition sink in the more preposterous calling obesity a disease seems.
Patient: "Doctor, when I eat more calories than I burn my body stores those calories as fat. Help!"
Doctor: "Working as intended."
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On June 21 2013 03:58 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 03:57 AnomalySC2 wrote:
It's fast food and how our lives have become completely intertwined with them. I feel like a lot of people would be in much better shape if they just cooked at home. I know that's what really tipped the scales for me. I ate as much as I always ate and I still do eat as much I always have eaten, but I cook nearly everything and I carefully crafted my meals so that I eat for instance a lot more vegetables that are much lower calories but can eat in far larger quantities and it fills me up more. People live fast lives and have no time to take an hour out of their day to cook though, so why not head to the local Publix and pick up a box of fresh ready to eat fried chicken for $7.99 or whatever? Show nested quote +I suspect that a lot of skinny people are thin for the same reason that I am: genetics. And therefore it's never quite sat right with me to go around labeling fat people as being lazy and having no self-control. You're a very, very, very unique case. I can't tell you the amount of times I've seen my mom stuffing her face with half a gallon of ice cream going on about how blessed my brother is with his genetics and that's why he's so muscular and in shape. Metabolism is such a cop out argument. Genetics determines your potential, but not your actual gain or loss. No one is above the Laws of Thermodynamics. If someone performs enough activity where they naturally burn off 3000 calories per day, they can eat 2500 calories per day and they will lose weight. That's that. That's all it takes and nothing more.
I'm ignoring the rest of this thread (because 10 pages is a bit much for a casual distinction) but I think in these "I'm lucky because genetics" cases, it's an issue of quantity. This guy probably underestimates his intake; when I was a obese, I myself, and many people I've seen who are overweight (and especially dieting), massively underestimate their intake.
Not to mention overestimate the effects of their activity.
It's confirmation bias; people get heavier when they like eating so they underestimate what they eat, conciously and subconsciously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Genetics, even at the far ends of the spectrum, is in my understanding only 300-400 calories from an average person. This is significant (800 from the 1 percentile to the 99) but not something that you can't account for with intake.
Of course, once you make the mistake, it's extremely difficult to fix. I know from experience.. and especially for women, there are many conditions that can make it even moreso. Still, don't let your kids get fat. Seriously.
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Damn im close to having a disease then :/ with a bf% of 15 -.- HOW can they use BMI to measure something like this? Size =/= fat.
This mean that if this gets passed in Europe or something similar to it, big men that workout and are generally in better health than the average person will get a higher insurance premium because of it.
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On June 22 2013 08:22 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 08:14 gmarshall wrote:On June 22 2013 07:59 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 07:44 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 22 2013 06:51 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:26 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:05 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On June 22 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Much like if a depressed person can fix their mental disorder by being more positive and happy. Or someone with combat related PTSD can solve their problem by not freaking out when they hear loud noises.
In a naive, simple minded way, you are correct. well unless some other underlying issue is the cause then hes right. and lets be honest, hte vast majority just simply eat too much cause they are lazy/never knew a different style/really dig fastfood or candy etc. yes habits and the constant sugar reward are hard to shake off but that doesnt mean its always on the same level as serious mental illness. if that was the case then most like 99% on this board have a disease cause the are seriously addicted to the internet/games/porn. most people just stuff way too much shit down their throat cause its convenient/they are used to it. no crazy deep reasons, just a habit you need to change and get through the little time you feel bad cause of it. But once again, the AMA doesn't care what the cause is, only how treatment is applied to the health issue. They do not care that people will use the word disease as an excuse socially. Combat related PTSD is caused people joining the armed services and then going to war. All those are personal choices as well, but it is still treated by health care providers as a disordered that requires treatment. The same goes for being obese. They don't care how it happened and are only concerned with how to fix the health issue. But obesity is just a symptom at best. The actual "disease" we are talking about here is gluttony. In an attempt to excuse personal responsibility people are attacking the symptom (weight gain) instead of the problem (overeating). You are dead set on trolling this thread. You points and posts have nothing to do with the AMA reasoning or the why they would label obesity as a disease. Your only purpose is to demand that people admit that gaining weight it do to eating to much. which is a give in. If that is your only goal, please leave. No one wants to have such a simplistic debate. I don't consider it "trolling" to point out that obesity is caused by eating habits. People are personally responsible for what they put in their mouth, unless they are orally raped. People are way too sensitive these days. Every personal shortcoming always has to be excused as the result of some external factor (disease, oppression, discrimination, etc.) instead of just admitting some people are lazy, gluttonous, or unmotivated. Fat people are not afflicted by some external factor outside of their control. Even if they have a real medical problem that makes them prone to obesity--to be realistic, most fat people don't have such problems--they still make the final decision as to what and how much they eat. The problem is that medically diseases aren't "some external factor outside their control." Hypertension? Within your control. Diabetes? Within your control. Calling it a disease doesn't excuse it, or make it any less of an issue. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what a disease is. If anything, the stigmatization of "being diseased" is more of a negative factor to discourage a given behavior. When I look up definitions of disease they say things like: "impairs normal functioning", "interruption of the normal structure or function", "abnormal condition", etc. So by those definitions I would still argue that obesity is not a disease. It is actually completely normal to gain weight when you eat too much. And when they stop overeating, they return to normal weight because their normal bodily function has not actually been interrupted at all. Is sunburn a disease? It's not good to have a sunburn, and it carries health risks like skin cancer, but it is a completely natural and expected result of getting too much sun without sunscreen. Diabetes is abnormal functioning of the body and requires treatment. It's not a completely natural and guaranteed result of a specific behaviour. Obesity impairs normal function, it affects almost all of the systems of the body. Compared to normally functioning people, it IS an abnormal condition. Normal body functions only become impaired after obesity has caused a real disease, like heart disease or diabetes. Until then their body is working just as every other human body does. It's a risk factor for disease but not a disease itself. The longer I let this dictionary definition sink in the more preposterous calling obesity a disease seems. Patient: "Doctor, when I eat more calories than I burn my body stores those calories as fat. Help!"
Doctor: "Working as intended."
A person could have heart disease but not notice until they have a heart attack. Does that mean that heart disease is not a disease? I don't understand the distinction you are making. If obesity causes all of these poor, abnormal health outcomes, even if it is one more step away from that outcome than a heart attack, doesn't that make it a disease according to your posted definition? If you are at higher risk for many bad outcomes, you are in an abnormal disease state. Eating too many carbohydrates and excess calories causes diabetes (working as intended?). Heart disease can be caused by the same things (working as intended?). Sorry if I'm not understanding your point correctly.
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On June 22 2013 08:27 Stoli wrote:
Genetics, even at the far ends of the spectrum, is in my understanding only 300-400 calories from an average person.
Well if you think about it, that's a pound every 12 days. Pretty significant in the long run.
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Northern Ireland27032 Posts
Incidentally, what other metrics could replace BMI? Many many posts have mentioned the issues with BMI already but just coming back here.
For men, I've recalled reading that fat distribution, especially around the midriff is a lot of a correlative tell for cardiovascular problems than BMI. I'm sure you guys know a lot more.
Additionally, do the public need more nuanced information, or more simplicity when it comes to this public health issue? I find people are woefully ignorant of nutrition, and exercise outside of 'eating healthy and exercise is good'. For example, low-fat desserts that are loaded with sugars, added to a sedentary lifestyle still lead to weight gains, and I know a lot of people are unaware of this despite the seemingly omnipresent coverage of the 'obesity epidemic'
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On June 22 2013 08:32 gmarshall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 08:22 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 08:14 gmarshall wrote:On June 22 2013 07:59 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 07:44 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 22 2013 06:51 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:26 Zaqwe wrote:On June 22 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2013 06:05 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
[quote]
well unless some other underlying issue is the cause then hes right. and lets be honest, hte vast majority just simply eat too much cause they are lazy/never knew a different style/really dig fastfood or candy etc. yes habits and the constant sugar reward are hard to shake off but that doesnt mean its always on the same level as serious mental illness. if that was the case then most like 99% on this board have a disease cause the are seriously addicted to the internet/games/porn.
most people just stuff way too much shit down their throat cause its convenient/they are used to it. no crazy deep reasons, just a habit you need to change and get through the little time you feel bad cause of it.
But once again, the AMA doesn't care what the cause is, only how treatment is applied to the health issue. They do not care that people will use the word disease as an excuse socially. Combat related PTSD is caused people joining the armed services and then going to war. All those are personal choices as well, but it is still treated by health care providers as a disordered that requires treatment. The same goes for being obese. They don't care how it happened and are only concerned with how to fix the health issue. But obesity is just a symptom at best. The actual "disease" we are talking about here is gluttony. In an attempt to excuse personal responsibility people are attacking the symptom (weight gain) instead of the problem (overeating). You are dead set on trolling this thread. You points and posts have nothing to do with the AMA reasoning or the why they would label obesity as a disease. Your only purpose is to demand that people admit that gaining weight it do to eating to much. which is a give in. If that is your only goal, please leave. No one wants to have such a simplistic debate. I don't consider it "trolling" to point out that obesity is caused by eating habits. People are personally responsible for what they put in their mouth, unless they are orally raped. People are way too sensitive these days. Every personal shortcoming always has to be excused as the result of some external factor (disease, oppression, discrimination, etc.) instead of just admitting some people are lazy, gluttonous, or unmotivated. Fat people are not afflicted by some external factor outside of their control. Even if they have a real medical problem that makes them prone to obesity--to be realistic, most fat people don't have such problems--they still make the final decision as to what and how much they eat. The problem is that medically diseases aren't "some external factor outside their control." Hypertension? Within your control. Diabetes? Within your control. Calling it a disease doesn't excuse it, or make it any less of an issue. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what a disease is. If anything, the stigmatization of "being diseased" is more of a negative factor to discourage a given behavior. When I look up definitions of disease they say things like: "impairs normal functioning", "interruption of the normal structure or function", "abnormal condition", etc. So by those definitions I would still argue that obesity is not a disease. It is actually completely normal to gain weight when you eat too much. And when they stop overeating, they return to normal weight because their normal bodily function has not actually been interrupted at all. Is sunburn a disease? It's not good to have a sunburn, and it carries health risks like skin cancer, but it is a completely natural and expected result of getting too much sun without sunscreen. Diabetes is abnormal functioning of the body and requires treatment. It's not a completely natural and guaranteed result of a specific behaviour. Obesity impairs normal function, it affects almost all of the systems of the body. Compared to normally functioning people, it IS an abnormal condition. Normal body functions only become impaired after obesity has caused a real disease, like heart disease or diabetes. Until then their body is working just as every other human body does. It's a risk factor for disease but not a disease itself. The longer I let this dictionary definition sink in the more preposterous calling obesity a disease seems. Patient: "Doctor, when I eat more calories than I burn my body stores those calories as fat. Help!"
Doctor: "Working as intended." A person could have heart disease but not notice until they have a heart attack. Does that mean that heart disease is not a disease? I don't understand the distinction you are making. If obesity causes all of these poor, abnormal health outcomes, even if it is one more step away from that outcome than a heart attack, doesn't that make it a disease according to your posted definition? If you are at higher risk for many bad outcomes, you are in an abnormal disease state. Eating too many carbohydrates and excess calories causes diabetes (working as intended?). Heart disease can be caused by the same things (working as intended?). Sorry if I'm not understanding your point correctly.
Just because something can cause disease doesn't make the risk factor itself a disease. I would use smoking as an example. Smoking can cause lung cancer, but smokers don't actually have a disease until they lose that lottery in life and become afflicted by cancer (or other disease resulting from smoking).
Obesity is a major risk factor for a host of diseases, but itself is not a disease. Someone could be obese but still have a normally functioning body. If they lose weight they may even return to normal risk levels, just as smokers reduce their risks of lung cancer after quitting.
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EPT
