EPT##Vote: Sharrant
Doctor Who Mafia - Page 21
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
##Vote: Sharrant | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
On May 16 2013 22:48 Vivax wrote: I missed crossfire's post about how movement works. I was still stuck into thinking you pick a cardinal direction and have to move into just one direction. Even if you missed it, your plan goes completely against what we are trying to do to find out positions. As soon as you let all people walk in the same direction, you run the risk that several use the same speed, and afterwards we still don't know who is who. This is why I don't understand why you brought this even up. We need to know which player has which position first, and for that we need the highest possible diversity in move patterns to minimize chances that two people are doing the exact same move. So, no, your explanation does not cut it. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
On May 17 2013 00:28 marvellosity wrote: ferry, I think they didn't not make sense, if you get my drift. Sharrant, explain to me like I'm stupid. Why does thinking we use cardinal directions mean something towards working out where B and J go? I'm definitely missing something here. Could you also explain to me why you'd want to lynch an Oats playing like town-Oats on Day 2 but you wouldn't want to lynch an Oats playing like town-Oats on Day 1? I can't explain Vivax's thought patterns, but I can explain mine. I fucking love puzzles, and thinking problems. The reason I signed up for this game is because it's a mafia game based on a puzzle essentially, so the first thing I did was look at the game to see if it could be solved as a puzzle or which solution would give us the greatest chance of winning. You cannot work out moves for a subset of players (B and J) but what you can do, is work out an optimal list of ordered moves for players. The idea was to create a list that primarily moves players to the left of the board. Moving players to the left is going to give us more visual overlap. The ideal scenario would be all 12 players in a corner, against the wall, players on outer edges facing parallel to the wall, everyone else a step or two out from the wall randomly alternating the direction they're looking between perpendicular to the wall nearest them, and out from the group parallel to the wall nearest them. This makes it hardest for the angels to identify a pattern in which they can enter or get close to our group without being spotted. It also potentially outs puppets for making Angel favoured moves, or making improper reports. Using Cardinal movements it was possible to begin moving players to the lower left hand corner, while giving a move pattern which would identify at least 50% of players, up to a possible 100%. The difference in potential identification is due to people running into walls/other players causing their actual movement to be inconsistent with their stated movement. There were certainly problems with my plan, but it seemed to be the optimal plan when cardinal movements were allowed. Does that adequately explain it? I'm not sure if I'm capable of conveying it very well. Can Angels feed AND use their conventional KP on the same night? If a player is fed upon are they killed that same night? | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
On May 17 2013 00:44 Sharrant wrote: I can't explain Vivax's thought patterns, but I can explain mine. I fucking love puzzles, and thinking problems. The reason I signed up for this game is because it's a mafia game based on a puzzle essentially, so the first thing I did was look at the game to see if it could be solved as a puzzle or which solution would give us the greatest chance of winning. You cannot work out moves for a subset of players (B and J) but what you can do, is work out an optimal list of ordered moves for players. The idea was to create a list that primarily moves players to the left of the board. Moving players to the left is going to give us more visual overlap. The ideal scenario would be all 12 players in a corner, against the wall, players on outer edges facing parallel to the wall, everyone else a step or two out from the wall randomly alternating the direction they're looking between perpendicular to the wall nearest them, and out from the group parallel to the wall nearest them. This makes it hardest for the angels to identify a pattern in which they can enter or get close to our group without being spotted. It also potentially outs puppets for making Angel favoured moves, or making improper reports. Using Cardinal movements it was possible to begin moving players to the lower left hand corner, while giving a move pattern which would identify at least 50% of players, up to a possible 100%. The difference in potential identification is due to people running into walls/other players causing their actual movement to be inconsistent with their stated movement. There were certainly problems with my plan, but it seemed to be the optimal plan when cardinal movements were allowed. Does that adequately explain it? I'm not sure if I'm capable of conveying it very well. Can Angels feed AND use their conventional KP on the same night? If a player is fed upon are they killed that same night? why are you posting this now? Is Vivax town off of this? Scum? Conclusion? Since we cant actually do this now, so I can only assume you are defending Vivax. Why dont you say so? | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
It also potentially outs puppets for making Angel favoured moves, or making improper reports. What are the improper reports you're referring to? | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
On May 17 2013 00:14 Sharrant wrote: Hey, guys. Glad to see people moved off of lynching Oatsmaster. I can't say I have him as a distinct town read, but the last game I played with him be played virtually identical to this as town, and was lynched day one. That said, if he continues this into day two, I'll want to lynch him. I think it was mentioned before, but this paragraph makes no sense at all. On May 17 2013 00:14 Sharrant wrote: Vivax: Honestly, the thing that sticks out to me the most about Vivax is his willingness to lynch Oats despite the first hand knowledge he has of Oats doing this as town last game. On the one hand, I could see a townie frustrated with how the game went last time because of Oats, and wanting to punish that behaviour in town while still giving himself a 1/4 chance to hit scum. Or I could see mafia going for what he thinks is an easy mislynch, like last game. The second most important thing in his filter, is the mention of B and J. When under the assumption he later mentioned, that players moved via cardinal direction, this was something I had thought of as well. I had tried my hand at creating a movement pattern that would put as many people in the optimal position as possible. I could never figure one out because of the spread of the board. He could be scum or not. wishy-washy. On May 17 2013 00:14 Sharrant wrote: My problem with a Vivax lynch right now is that I don't think he's lying about believing the game operated with cardinal directions. If he earnestly believed that, I don't think his post is scummy at all. I think it might be a bit counter productive, but not scummy. Now if he's lying, then absolutely he's scum and he got caught trying to fish for player movements. So I ask everyone, do you think he's lying about his knowledge of the movement scheme. If you do, what is it that makes you think he's lying? Convince me that he is, and I'll happily vote him. Oh, ok, you think Vivax is probably not scum since you don't think he lied, right? On May 17 2013 00:14 Sharrant wrote: Sentinel: Sentinel is where my vote would feel safest. His filter just seems off, but not in the "paranoia/jumping at shadows" way that a town player can feel off. He spent so much time defending himself about his weird read early on, but people were asking him questions about it, so he gets a little bit of a pass on that part. The biggest thing that reads as scum in his filter to me, is his dropping of Vivax as a suspect just when everyone else was warming up to his lynch. Waaaait, but this implies Vivax is scum, cause why else does sentinel (as scum) have to move his vote away from Vivax? So why does anyone have to convince you that Vivax is indeed scum by proving he lied? And what is this anyway, association cases of unflipped players? Also, how did his filter feel off if not in the "paranoia/jumping at shadows" way? On May 17 2013 00:14 Sharrant wrote: Vivax, what do you think about keeping Oats alive for today, and lynching him if his play does not improve over the next cycle? Again, if this is how Town Oats plays, then why do you even want to lynch him at all? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
On May 17 2013 00:37 marvellosity wrote: Sharrant I don't like a lot of your post actually. Further stuff: You spend a long time talking about Vivax without coming to a conclusion, including this. You give two options but you distinctly don't give a stance on either. Not even a leaning, it's just words for the sake of words. It's bad. Sentinel is your primary scum suspect, but why? What's the justification here? His filter is "off" in an unexplained way, that's useless. He defended himself when he was attacked, that's not a reason either. And as for the biggest thing that reads as scum in his filter - you need to explain very, very clearly to me exactly why what you said makes him mafia. Why does BlazingHand voting Vivax sometime after Sentintel unvoted him make Sentinel mafia? Again this says very little about ghost, other than insinuating that you find him mafia because you're not on his wavelength this time. Is ghost mafia or not? What's the purpose of all this? Let's nip this in the bud then. Vivax isn't a mafia suspect for me at this point. I do not see in his filter the same things that in the last two games have given me instant strong town reads on him, but their absence is not reason for me to believe he is scum. His thought process about the player movement is something that I had thought of as well, the difference though is his seems more specific to a subset of players. I do not, at this time, have reason to believe Vivax is scum. He is a light town read, the only thing holding him back from being a stronger town read is that his plan focused on the subset of B and J, when it should be applied to everyone. The reason I mentioned Sentinel having defended himself to other people's questions is because I am not sure if I'm reaching on this one. His weird defence of fferyllt does not look like it comes from a townie, it looks like it came from scum. If his defense had been unprompted by questions, I'd be sure he was scum. As it is, I don't really know how I feel about his defense. It was driven by other peoples questions, but he seemed to be content JUST defending himself, rather than answering the questions and pushing a town objective at the same time. I'm not insinuating that Ghost is scum, whether that is how it reads to you or not. I am hoping to have a discussion with him because I do know that we think similarly, but we have had very different experiences with Vivax after the last game we both played with him. I want to be able to determine if we can get on the same page this game, and if we can't whether it's because of differing experiences with the player base or set up, or whether it's because we're of differing alignments. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
On May 17 2013 00:58 marvellosity wrote: phagga, you are verily my Iago. I have no idea what that means. I have to head off to the train, I should be online again in about 3 hours hopefully (depends on the kids). | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On May 17 2013 00:59 phagga wrote: I have no idea what that means. I have to head off to the train, I should be online again in about 3 hours hopefully (depends on the kids). Jafar's parrot in Aladdin ^_^ | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
On May 17 2013 00:58 Sharrant wrote: Let's nip this in the bud then. Vivax isn't a mafia suspect for me at this point. I do not see in his filter the same things that in the last two games have given me instant strong town reads on him, but their absence is not reason for me to believe he is scum. His thought process about the player movement is something that I had thought of as well, the difference though is his seems more specific to a subset of players. I do not, at this time, have reason to believe Vivax is scum. He is a light town read, the only thing holding him back from being a stronger town read is that his plan focused on the subset of B and J, when it should be applied to everyone. The reason I mentioned Sentinel having defended himself to other people's questions is because I am not sure if I'm reaching on this one. His weird defence of fferyllt does not look like it comes from a townie, it looks like it came from scum. If his defense had been unprompted by questions, I'd be sure he was scum. As it is, I don't really know how I feel about his defense. It was driven by other peoples questions, but he seemed to be content JUST defending himself, rather than answering the questions and pushing a town objective at the same time. I'm not insinuating that Ghost is scum, whether that is how it reads to you or not. I am hoping to have a discussion with him because I do know that we think similarly, but we have had very different experiences with Vivax after the last game we both played with him. I want to be able to determine if we can get on the same page this game, and if we can't whether it's because of differing experiences with the player base or set up, or whether it's because we're of differing alignments. So basically you have no clear read on anyone, and are just naming the 3 guys that have pressure on them anyway, although you don't think anyone is scum? What is this? Who do you want to lynch right now, and why? You don't need to write an essay, I just want at least one name and an explanation for it. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
@Oats I posted that because I was asked to. Yes, I am defending Vivax because at this point I don't think he's mafia. @Phagga I can't read Oats on day one. I'm okay with letting him do what he wants for day one, because there's evidence he'll do this as town. If he continues into day two doing the same thing, I will not be okay with that. He gets a pass for day one, but if he's not giving out reads and playing his heart out then, then I want him to hang. It's as simple as that, either it will motivate him to play properly as town, or he'll swing as scum. The end. And no, that does not imply Vivax is scum. Like I said, I completely can see it as Sentinel wanting to wash his hands of a mislynch he started. If they're both scum? Not really sure, I could see the same scenario, but I could also see him riding it out for cred if there's no one to stop the bandwagon. It's that he got off the bandwagon, but did nothing to STOP the bandwagon. "I no longer think this guy is scum, but you guys go ahead and lynch him". | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
Are you seriously suggesting a mafia Sentinel unvoted a player because one other player voted for him? | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
On May 17 2013 01:04 phagga wrote: So basically you have no clear read on anyone, and are just naming the 3 guys that have pressure on them anyway, although you don't think anyone is scum? What is this? Who do you want to lynch right now, and why? You don't need to write an essay, I just want at least one name and an explanation for it. Sentinel: His early game unprovoked defense of fferyllt was strange in a way that I do not see coming from a townie. His following start up of the bandwagon on Vivax and then hopping off strikes me as mafia motivated 9 times out of 10 because he had weak reasoning coming off of it, but didn't attempt to dissuade anyone else or comment on their positions about Vivax. Ergo: he wants the lynch to happen, but doesn't want to be on the lynch when it happens. I haven't voted him yet because I still have more time to put into looking through the thread, if I don't find someone I think is more likely to be mafia than him, then he'll get my vote soon enough. | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
On May 17 2013 01:07 marvellosity wrote: Sharrant, Sentinel voted for Vivax, ghost voted for Vivax, Sentinel unvoted Vivax. That's the timeline as I see it. Are you seriously suggesting a mafia Sentinel unvoted a player because one other player voted for him? Hey, I wanted to say that! But let me add that thread sentiment at that time was not heavily vs. Vivax. I see no way how sentinel could know at that point that a Vivax bandwagon would leave the station. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
On May 17 2013 01:07 marvellosity wrote: Sharrant, Sentinel voted for Vivax, ghost voted for Vivax, Sentinel unvoted Vivax. That's the timeline as I see it. Are you seriously suggesting a mafia Sentinel unvoted a player because one other player voted for him? Zepphird also voted for him in that time frame. After seeing Vivax get two quick votes from people that sounded like they were ready to pursue him about it, yes I could see him unvoting and just trying to ride out the day. There were 3 votes on him all within 1 or 2 pages, it certainly looked to me, when I was reading through everything, that votes were going to pile up on Vivax from that point on. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
On May 17 2013 01:09 Sharrant wrote: Sentinel: His early game unprovoked defense of fferyllt was strange in a way that I do not see coming from a townie. His following start up of the bandwagon on Vivax and then hopping off strikes me as mafia motivated 9 times out of 10 because he had weak reasoning coming off of it, but didn't attempt to dissuade anyone else or comment on their positions about Vivax. Ergo: he wants the lynch to happen, but doesn't want to be on the lynch when it happens. I haven't voted him yet because I still have more time to put into looking through the thread, if I don't find someone I think is more likely to be mafia than him, then he'll get my vote soon enough. This is quite a lot of assumptions from 1 action. So he is your top scumspect because, 1. Odd defense 2. Weak reasoning for hopping off Vivax? Can you elaborate on both points? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On May 17 2013 01:12 Sharrant wrote: Zepphird also voted for him in that time frame. After seeing Vivax get two quick votes from people that sounded like they were ready to pursue him about it, yes I could see him unvoting and just trying to ride out the day. There were 3 votes on him all within 1 or 2 pages, it certainly looked to me, when I was reading through everything, that votes were going to pile up on Vivax from that point on. you're right, Zeph did. ok, I missed that. *ponders* kinda makes more sense. how do you feel about lynching deconduo? | ||
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