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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:10 Bill Murray wrote: yes I think SnB is scum ok i will quit posting for you austin, see you all at night You should unvote sn0. He's town. What you were doing D1 was helpful, and probably would be so again once today's discussion picks up somewhat and we get more votes. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Gonna clear my head for a few hours and be productive, then come back and be more active. Please think about whether mass claiming (probably from the bottom up, in an orderly manner, so as to make it more risky to fakeclaim for scum) makes sense to you and whether there are downsides that I'm not seeing. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9387 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:06 Oatsmaster wrote: Is this serious?+ Show Spoiler + On April 10 2013 22:44 Mocsta wrote: Hi Everyone. I think we can all benefit by steering conversation more towards critical thought, and fleshed out thoughts. Instead of just saying "Person X" is scum. Let us create debate; detail the scum mindset, and justify the vote. If someone builds a case, and you disagree. Let us create debate; challenge the points, and work together to come to a well-reasoned conclusion For example, ===================== Oatsmaster + Show Spoiler [Re:Sn0_Man] + ]Im still not sure why you think he is scum. On April 10 2013 21:36 Oatsmaster wrote: Was that the 'he doesnt care what he posts argument? the too scummy too be scum argument?' Cause that is not so good. Its like ~~~ not ^^^ Yes, I am referring to the Keirathi "he doesnt care what he posts" argument. After a second review, I thought his points were of merit and showed a town confidence. Can you walk me through what you disagree with. ===================== BillMurray + Show Spoiler [Re:Sinani] + On April 10 2013 22:16 Bill Murray wrote: sinani has been pressuring people, and regardless if one of them is me, made a good case on strongandbig... he hasn't been useless this game, like sn0_man, sharrant, obviousone, just to name a few off the top of my head Do you think SnB is scum? If not, why do you think the case is "good"? Regardless of whether the case is good or bad though; it was made prior to the Artanis case (i.e. very early game Day 1). Futher, Sinani never updated his vote from that pivotal moment in the game. Do you truly believe that SnB case was good enough to warrant leaving the vote their for an entire cycle? Please keep in mind, Sinani was up to date with the thread enough, to request Gonzaw use his day-vig to shoot "BillMurray". ===================== Sharrant + Show Spoiler [Re:Keirathi] + Keirathi Case I am very curious to hear your response to the issues regarding the assassin claim knowledge + vested interest in ascertaining blue roles. Why are you so helpful in asking questions, but not helpful in making cases? Im the one who shot Deconduo... and I have been making cases all game. Please answer the questions I laid out. They are quite straight forward. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9387 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:15 austinmcc wrote: Gonna get a little work done. Those posts were just some basic setup/thread thoughts, but there's no scumhunting from me yet today and my best suspect from the end of yesterday is off the table for me. Gonna clear my head for a few hours and be productive, then come back and be more active. Please think about whether mass claiming (probably from the bottom up, in an orderly manner, so as to make it more risky to fakeclaim for scum) makes sense to you and whether there are downsides that I'm not seeing. Sorry Austin. Im not against "hard to reads" claiming. Or if the information is useful (e.g. Kei -> checked Austin) But I am not planning to claim. I think my actions should make me probably town for most, if not all. Hence: My role *may* or *may not* have more to offer. I prefer to keep scum on their toes with that. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:19 Mocsta wrote: Is this serious? Im the one who shot Deconduo... and I have been making cases all game. Please answer the questions I laid out. They are quite straight forward. I absolutely knew that you would answer this way. Taking the easy way out. Who the fuck cares even if you singlehandly caught all the scum but one, IF you dont know who that one is and you keep asking questions to other people IN ORDER to get a read on the PEOPLE THEY are making cases on. Terrible. Who is scum Mocsta? | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9387 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:10 Bill Murray wrote: yes I think SnB is scum So, it is natural to expect; that you believe SnB tried to save Artanis by bussing VE? & You also think that early game: Deconduo decided to bus StrongandBig by voting him? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:23 Mocsta wrote: Sorry Austin. Im not against "hard to reads" claiming. Or if the information is useful (e.g. Kei -> checked Austin) But I am not planning to claim. I think my actions should make me probably town for most, if not all. Hence: My role *may* or *may not* have more to offer. I prefer to keep scum on their toes with that. This is true of the VAST majority of roles. Most of the benefit to claiming is to force claims/fake claims early, to be able to potentially catch people in that way, to potentially be able to confirm certain players based on roles and whatnot, and also to coordinate actions. At this point it's a very large group against a small one, checking different targets, protecting valuable targets, etc., has some value. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:23 Mocsta wrote: Sorry Austin. Im not against "hard to reads" claiming. Or if the information is useful (e.g. Kei -> checked Austin) But I am not planning to claim. I think my actions should make me probably town for most, if not all. Hence: My role *may* or *may not* have more to offer. I prefer to keep scum on their toes with that. I'd say that everybody claiming probably just makes you safer from mafia (although I guess keeping them afraid of a spent role is helpful?). However, nobody can force you to claim I guess... (unless there is an extractor, which I kind of wonder given RO's funny claim yesterday shortly after gonzaw's death). Anyway, BM has now basically claimed justice vigi. I find it pretty hard to believe that he justice-vigged Caller and is still alive, but it might not interact the way I think. If the Justice Vigilante shoots a TOWN player who is already the subject of other KP, does the Justice Vigilante live? The OP seems to indicate that said justice vigi would die if he ever aimed his gun at a townie regardless of other interactions, but I'm not sure. also Do roleblocked people recieve notifications? | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9387 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:25 Oatsmaster wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 10 2013 23:19 Mocsta wrote: Is this serious? Im the one who shot Deconduo... and I have been making cases all game. Please answer the questions I laid out. They are quite straight forward. I absolutely knew that you would answer this way. Taking the easy way out. Who the fuck cares even if you singlehandly caught all the scum but one, IF you dont know who that one is and you keep asking questions to other people IN ORDER to get a read on the PEOPLE THEY are making cases on. Terrible. Who is scum Mocsta? Firstly, Why are you avoiding answering my question? This will now be the third request: Oatsmaster Regarding: Sn0_Man Im still not sure why you think he is scum. Yes, I am referring to the Keirathi "he doesnt care what he posts" argument. After a second review, I thought his points were of merit and showed a town confidence. Can you walk me through what you disagree with. ================ Secondly, On April 10 2013 23:25 Oatsmaster wrote: Who the fuck cares even if you singlehandly caught all the scum but one, IF you dont know who that one is and you keep asking questions to other people IN ORDER to get a read on the PEOPLE THEY are making cases on. Im asking you questions to get a read on you. I think your stance on Sn0 is fallacious. Im trying to ascertain whether genuine or lazy. If lazy, whether due to being scum. ================ To address your question: Who do I think is scum? On April 10 2013 11:18 Mocsta wrote: Day2 ##VOTE:SINANI On April 10 2013 11:33 Mocsta wrote: Day 2 2nd lynch ##vote:obviousone I am seriously giving thought you swapping you for Obvious. This is not the first time I have requested you expound on a stance you have given in the thread. Yet each time, asking you for more information is like pulling teeth. Town oats is normally much more confidence to put it out there. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9387 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:27 austinmcc wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 10 2013 23:23 Mocsta wrote: Sorry Austin. Im not against "hard to reads" claiming. Or if the information is useful (e.g. Kei -> checked Austin) But I am not planning to claim. I think my actions should make me probably town for most, if not all. Hence: My role *may* or *may not* have more to offer. I prefer to keep scum on their toes with that. This is true of the VAST majority of roles. Most of the benefit to claiming is to force claims/fake claims early, to be able to potentially catch people in that way, to potentially be able to confirm certain players based on roles and whatnot, and also to coordinate actions. At this point it's a very large group against a small one, checking different targets, protecting valuable targets, etc., has some value. Well, according to BC. Your dead in 36hr. You might as well claim? | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
with 23 players 3 dead day 1 7 total dead day 2 double lynch + nuke in the air means 10 will be dead by the end of today. Leaving 13 players alive. While I hope (and think it is possible) to win or put scum to 1 remaining player by the end of today, towns numbers are also dwindling fast. I feel like some sense of urgency is not unreasonable. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
I'm glad to see I was wrong about Artanis and VisceraEyes. I'll be writing up a longer post in a minute but I wanted to ask two questions first: If the role reverser were used on a justice vigi when they shot a mafia member, what would be the end result? Would both/either player live through the shot? If the role reverser used his power on the janitor when the janitor did not use his power, would it activate or would the role reverser fizzle out because no action was taken by the janitor? | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9387 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:33 Sn0_Man wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 10 2013 23:23 Mocsta wrote: Sorry Austin. Im not against "hard to reads" claiming. Or if the information is useful (e.g. Kei -> checked Austin) But I am not planning to claim. I think my actions should make me probably town for most, if not all. Hence: My role *may* or *may not* have more to offer. I prefer to keep scum on their toes with that. I'd say that everybody claiming probably just makes you safer from mafia (although I guess keeping them afraid of a spent role is helpful?). However, nobody can force you to claim I guess... (unless there is an extractor, which I kind of wonder given RO's funny claim yesterday shortly after gonzaw's death). Anyway, BM has now basically claimed justice vigi. I find it pretty hard to believe that he justice-vigged Caller and is still alive, but it might not interact the way I think. If the Justice Vigilante shoots a TOWN player who is already the subject of other KP, does the Justice Vigilante live? The OP seems to indicate that said justice vigi would die if he ever aimed his gun at a townie regardless of other interactions, but I'm not sure. also Do roleblocked people recieve notifications? Im really struggling to keep up with all the role claim logic (as you could tell with the showtime decacle) Do you think BM is Justice Vig, because he was sure Caller was scum & he shot him? Also, not sure if you will get host answers. He never replied to my question about janitor & I PM too. I guess if you beleive palmar was emperor, and we got double lynch, it makes sense deconduo coudl be janitor & still managed to get off power before death. (my question to host was because, i thought dec mighta pretended to be janitor, so we dont know that 1 remaining scum has exhausted poewr) | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:38 Mocsta wrote: I'm going to.Well, according to BC. Your dead in 36hr. You might as well claim? But in general, because of the way picking works and what I remember about other PYP games, you want claiming to be from the bottom up. That way any player who wants to try and fakeclaim takes a big risk - if player 20 claims role x and player 10 claims role x, one is lying. You can't be SAFE fake claiming, because someone may actually have that role above you. Adding more risk to fake claiming, forcing more truth = good. If I claim my role right now, scum know not to fakeclaim that role if they're below me. So yeah, you'll get a claim from me today, either on its own or as part of an overall scheme, but if we're going to massclaim, doing so in an organized manner is best. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9387 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:40 Sharrant wrote: Interesting question. But it also relies on BM being targeted by Role Reverser.If the role reverser were used on a justice vigi when they shot a mafia member, what would be the end result? Would both/either player live through the shot? Based on thread sentiment, I find that highly unlikely. I look forward to your detailed response - I presume in relation to Keirathi case. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9387 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:42 austinmcc wrote: OK, fair point. I will play along and role claim when it is my turn.I'm going to. But in general, because of the way picking works and what I remember about other PYP games, you want claiming to be from the bottom up. That way any player who wants to try and fakeclaim takes a big risk - if player 20 claims role x and player 10 claims role x, one is lying. You can't be SAFE fake claiming, because someone may actually have that role above you. Adding more risk to fake claiming, forcing more truth = good. If I claim my role right now, scum know not to fakeclaim that role if they're below me. So yeah, you'll get a claim from me today, either on its own or as part of an overall scheme, but if we're going to massclaim, doing so in an organized manner is best. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
I expect all night actions occur even if the perpetrator dies that night as well (as in the case of deconduo/janitor I think). In the case of a full-claim (which I'm not convinced is the right choice but I wouldn't mind seeing it at least begin) Yamato, Oats and Vivax are the first up (going with Justice vig BM for now, since he's asleep). If yamato and oats are around they can probably begin safely. I don't really care about yam but Oats I'd really like to see his claim  | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
On April 10 2013 23:49 Sn0_Man wrote: BM is Justice Vig because he has essentially outright claimed it in thread a billion times but is somehow afraid of actually saying the words (hes asleep now so can't get any more from him ATM). I expect all night actions occur even if the perpetrator dies that night as well (as in the case of deconduo/janitor I think). In the case of a full-claim (which I'm not convinced is the right choice but I wouldn't mind seeing it at least begin) Yamato, Oats and Vivax are the first up (going with Justice vig BM for now, since he's asleep). If yamato and oats are around they can probably begin safely. I don't really care about yam but Oats I'd really like to see his claim Because? Im like 22nd. Whut. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Exactly. Claims happen from bottom up. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
I LIKE SNOMAN. K. Um so yeah Vivax and sinani. | ||
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