So, let's have a look at Foolish's read on me.
On March 14 2013 08:07 Foolishness wrote:I was suspicious of him day 1 because he failed to do anything for the town. He's spammy, he clutters everything up, and he's not being productive. He's not getting the town organized, and that's the major problem.
Now you might say, "well he always does that!", to which I quickly respond, no he does not. The most obvious example is when he smurfed as Fivetouch
here. At a quick glance you can see how much he tried that game. He writes post detailing his thoughts. He doesn't derail the thread, he organizes the town. He does everything he should once he becomes mayor, and he wins the game for it. He hasn't done anything this game, look at his filter! One liners, one liners, one liners.
So Foolishness says I'm not getting town organised. This is despite
VisceraEyes saying I'm carrying the game for town (don't mind the if he's scum bit ;D)
On March 13 2013 11:59 VisceraEyes wrote:
marv is carrying this game for town, and if he's scum you guys should be ashamed of yourselves.
Well, there's a divergance already. Now read the line I've bolded carefully. Foolishness isn't even claiming that as town I *always* get town organised a la FiveTouch, he's saying *sometimes* I do this. What he neglects to mention is that I've often had directionless Day 1s in the past. Many times in fact. LVIII being a good, reasonably recent example.
He hasn't done anything this game, look at his filter! One liners, one liners, one liners. What of this? I often spam as town. All my longest filters with the most spam come from my town games. ALL OF THEM. All my least spammy filters are from when I am mafia. So why is he using this as an argument against me? It's intellectually dishonest, and if Foolishness had truly looked at my past games, he would know that. I spam far more one liners as town than I do as mafia, that's simply basic fact.
On March 14 2013 08:07 Foolishness wrote:Here are his filters to the game's where he's town:
here and
here and
here. I like to use the last one (Bureaucracy mafia) cause I thought he did well for himself that game.
What is clear from these posts? He accurately posts his reads and make judgments about the players alignment (and they are mostly all correct as well). If you look through his other filters you notice posts similar to these. These posts are made by him and virtually say "these 3 people are mafia, here's why". And they are good. He's right most of the time and his content is clear. He makes a
huge effort. Fivetouch he also made an effort, just an even bigger one.
Now look through his filter this game and you see that it's all absent. He doesn't have these posts. All his posts are effortless. He is posting pictures and nonsensical one-liners calling people fucktards. And I even asked him to make a nice post but he refused. What townie would refuse to make a case on someone he thinks is mafia (unless he had a clear plan)? He's not organizing the town and he's not putting in an effort.
On a side note, I find marvellosity to be less abrasive when he's town than he's mafia. This is the wherebugsgo mentality as I stated above. When these guys are mafia they are trololol all over the place, posting pictures and calling people stupid. But come time they roll town they put ithe best killn the effort, do the analysis and read the filters, make long posts, and win games.
The absolutely worst thing about any of this is that he decides to use Bureaucracy as a comparison for my play. This is terrible for several reasons. I had been playing the game for only 4 months at that stage. Regardless of anything else, it's fairly clear that my style will have changed as I've grown and played more games. That game is literally 15-20 town games ago for me. Further to this and related, this was my first big game with all the 'big names' - foolish, sandroba, syllogism, palmar, MZ, BC, bugs, VE and probably others I forgot. Wow! I was somewhat overawed, indeed in my filter for that game there is a period of the game where I go quiet because Foolishness called me mafia, that's how much that game affected me. I'm quite clearly not that same scared kid anymore (for good or bad ;o). Foolishness is taking a game from a long time ago which has little to no bearing on how I play now. It's stupid.
What else does he say? I'm posting one-liners and calling people fucktards? Been over the one-liners thing. And I'm way, way, way more likely to call people fucktards as town than as mafia. Anyone who's played with me even a little knows this to be true. Tied into this is how Foolish says I'm less abrasive as town than as mafia. This is simply completely false. Everyone knows this is false. From where I made Acro and Dandel rage in MTG 2, to where I ragequit in LVIII, to where I told town they were all bad in Mad Men and called my mafia target a snivelling little bitch, to Rock Band where I repeatedly called Palmar awful because he was mafia. I'm far more likely to lose the plot and be aggressive as town. This is a basic fact which, if he'd looked at my meta, is easily verifiable.
In short, all his arguments here are basically completely untrue, and easily verifiable as untrue.
On March 14 2013 08:07 Foolishness wrote:So what of this trap you set for him?As I said before, in the past 3 games I was mafia and called him mafia (even though he was town). So I decided to play on that to get him to react to my posts.
Now I wanted to do the same thing this game but slightly different. My idea was, if I called him out on being mafia would he accuse me back? Probably yes, no matter what role he was. So what I needed to do was tweak the scenario to see if it differentiated from his normal town play. So first let's look at how exactly marvellosity responded to my accusations in these past 3 games where I was mafia.
In Bureaucracy he played it very cool and posted only this initially:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 17 2012 06:41 marvellosity wrote:
yeah mainly i'm just gonna lurk now if i don't get modkilled
Foolishness is bad if he thinks i'm scum
He only questions my motives and never hard attacks me. If you look through his filter (just ctrl+F my name for clarification) you see he's suspicious but doesn't hard push me until later when he's certain:
+ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 19:37 marvellosity wrote:
Fuckity crap crap
I get convinced to change my vote to a consolidation wagon and then at deadline if I'd just left my vote where it was before bed we would have had a lynch >.<
Foolishness needs to die. The idea he's admonishing other people for what happened is laughable considering he did less than nothing to help. Well done him. "everyone's vote was wasted because there was a no lynch" - what kind of bs argument is that for the fact that he was one of the primary reasons town didn't secure a lynch?
Stupid deadline. Game is partially ruined because like a third of the people playing can't be awake at 5 or 6 in the morning to move their vote around.
And you'll see this is about all he does. No spam or one-liners or memes about me, just suspicion until he's certain I'm mafia when he pushes.
In TL Mafia LVIII he again plays it cool and only really brings me up when necessary. This is about his only post responding to me:
+ Show Spoiler +On January 04 2013 10:12 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 10:08 VisceraEyes wrote:
Foolishness - LOL
Palmar - /facepalm
supersoft - started out strong, puttered out.
MZ - Clearly not even trying. Null.
BC - ....hold me.
Marv - I'm sensing disappointment. Usually means scum.
VE - Townie town towningtons.
Toad - Is scum. Kill it.
Actually you're right for the first, but it's not quite what you think, and I don't mind explaining it a little. I was quite looking forward to this game because I felt there was a pretty decent chance I was going to be able to play town with at least 1 of Palmar or Foolishness. I've played with Fool twice only and he rolled scum, unfortunately, in both. Palmar I've played with a bunch of times, but so far always with the opposite alignment. Then after that Palmar has basically trolled most of the game (at least, playing nothing like his last few town games where I was either hosting or scum) and Foolishness is doing even worse than this. So yes, I've been disappointed with the game so far.
A few times later in the game he says he'll gladly lynch me, but never pushed me hard or spams one-liners or posts memes.
And now I will observe how he called me out in parallel worlds:
+ Show Spoiler +On December 13 2012 07:48 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 07:36 Foolishness wrote:On December 13 2012 06:40 Palmar wrote:
I'm all for this discussion thing Foolishness. Let's start with you explaining in detail why you think marv is scum.
He hasn't made a post longer than 30 words (most of them are just one liners full of nothing). He's not contributed anything of substance, all he has done is start a silly counter vote on me, backed by horrible reasoning. He says my vote is exactly the same as bureaucratic mafia, but it's not anywhere close. In bureaucracy, I just said he should die, I didn't give reasoning, and I don't even think I ever voted for him, I just made the comments in passing and never really elaborated on them. Poor comparison to try to get something going (though the amount of people jumping on it is great for the town).
What's most sketchy about his accusations against me is that they seem so out of the blue. He was really quick to jump up and point the finger back, so quick that it was made out of panic (oh shit he's onto me...quick! accuse him back to divert the attention!).
Hi there. I'd made 2 small posts at the beginning of the thread when you called me scum
Now you're a pretty clever boy and you know that's not alignment indicative. I start every game ever in the universe like this.
And no, you're stupid accusation didn't panic me. You lost your aura back in Bureaucracy when you were so trivial to catch as scum.
How could I divert the attention when there was nothing to divert it from? Oh look, marv asked why Clarity was in both worlds and said hi, he must be scum! Give me a break.
My accusation of you (shallow as it may seem) had more depth and interest than your accusation of me.
If you're genuinely town then you should know the posts I made at the beginning of the game are in no way alignment indicative, so I can only presume what you were doing was some sort of play to get people talking? Whatever it was, it was bad.
On December 13 2012 09:18 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 09:15 Foolishness wrote:
And I made all of 3 posts before you guys hopped on the train and the case against me is better?
so it's ok that I made 2 posts that were totally null and unalignment indicative, and it's not ok I called you out for your bullshit?
From what I know/have heard of your town games, you usually take a more observing role Day 1 and then bust out your awesome reads come Day 2.
Is this an unfair characterisation? If not, where does randomly calling me scum for something you should know very well isn't scummy come from?
Again he just plays it cool and calls me out on my bullshit. But he doesn't hard press the issue until later in the game when he's sure I'm mafia.
Here Foolishness cites Bureaucracy, LVIII, and Parallels. I'm happy to break them down. In the very quote that Foolishness has provided here is the proof of my feelings of meek awe that I was alluding to earlier. Hadn't even realised, but it's very conveninent. I said
I'm just going to lurk now. I was a babyface and I was thrown for 6 by being called mafia. I explain that later in my Bureaucracy filter if you want to take a look.
Now, LVIII. He only voted for me to save BC. He didn't even call me mafia, this one is literally totally irrelevant.
Also as I should have noted earlier, Foolishness was in LVIII, this game where I was 'useless' Day 1, spammed at town, and ragequit after being emotional and calling people fucktards. And yet somehow he doesn't include this in his earlier meta analysis of me. This is one of the strongest points that I've only just realised as I'm writing this!Finally, Parallels. I was 3rd party in Parallels, and it's pretty apparent from my filter there that I'm quite laid back and don't give much of a shit what's going on, as my only wincon is survival for 5 cycles. But I called him mafia originally and I never dropped that read, but that's really quite irrelevant.
So the only game where Foolish was mafia and outright called me mafia when I was town was Bureaucracy, and I've already talked about the Bureaucracy mentality. All of this already makes Foolish's 'plan' this game look very stupid indeed.
This is where it gets really fun.
On March 14 2013 08:07 Foolishness wrote:So what was my plan? To subtly call out marvellosity to see if he reacts the same way or not. I wanted to see whether he followed the "hmm well, he's certainly wrong, but is he misguided or is he mafia pushing an agenda? Let's analyze his play and figure it out" line of thinking or not. My idea was that if he is mafia, he would react by jumping the gun and immediately accusing me and trying to get me lynched based off our past history, instead of just shrugging it off and taking time to analyze it as the days went on (which he does when he's town).
I had to think long and hard how to write my first post about him. Take a look at what I originally say about him in this game:
Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 10:34 Foolishness wrote:
I'm pretty sure cDgCorazon is town. At least right now he'd be a terrible lynch. Crossfire I don't know I haven't analyzed him yet. I actually think that marvellosity is mafia but I call him scum every game and I'm always wrong so that probably means as much as VE saying he doesn't post a lot.
What did I do here? I said I thought he was mafia but I clearly doubted myself (and even tossed in the nice VE metaphor as well). I did not vote for him (like I did in the past). I did not definitively say that he should die (like I did in the past). In essence, I said he was suspicious but played it off as it wasn't a big deal.
Then when he brought up that I always did it in the past
I lied and told him that one game we were both town too. In actuality this was an honest mistake on my part, I was reading the game where he was Fivetouch and helping townies. I actually thought he might have been mafia on day 1 and into night 1 (you can ask sandroba or wherebugsgo as proof as I talked to them about it during the game). And hence I admitted my mistake, but I decided to outright admit to lying to see if he reacted to it:
Ok, there's two things here. First of all, Foolishness is still admitting lying. This is still kinda important. He tries to explain it away as an honest mistake. First of all, this rests on assumption that we can't prove - that Foolishness found me mafia in LIX according to two people not playing the game. So we can throw that out. It also rests on the idea that Foolishness, one of the great town-players in TL Mafia history, found that I could be mafia into night 1, where I had been elected mayor and lynched mafia. Do you really believe this? I don't.
More importantly is the wording of the first post.
but I call him scum every game and I'm always wrongEVERY GAME. This is just entirely dishonest. Even *one* single game rests on the idea that he genuinely found me scum in LIX, which I dispute - especially as he decided to keep trying to use this game to meta me as my ideal town game. But *every game*? This very clearly means it happens repeatedly. It has not happened repeatedly, and it's arguable that it even happened once.
What did Foolishness expect out of a town-marv when he used layers of dishonesty to call me mafia? Me to go "aww ok babycakes, you can lie repeatedly and that's ok". How could he possibly even expect that reaction? In fact, if you look at my initial reaction, it WAS calm:
On March 12 2013 10:35 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 10:34 Foolishness wrote:
I'm pretty sure cDgCorazon is town. At least right now he'd be a terrible lynch. Crossfire I don't know I haven't analyzed him yet. I actually think that marvellosity is mafia but I call him scum every game and I'm always wrong so that probably means as much as VE saying he doesn't post a lot.
that's because you've been mafia in every game we've played together, dear. infallible tell so far. do carry on down this road, though.
It was only when he subsequently carried on his nonsense that I became convinced of him.
But despite this, if he used my meta he'd know I'm hot-headed. In Rock Band, as soon as Palmar called me mafia, I told him he was absolutely awful and voted for him immediately. If he'd looked at my meta, he would have found this. Now in this instance, when I know he's outright lying to me, what reaction does he 'expect' from this masterplan than me to immediately think he's mafia?
Once again, the reaction of a confirmed town in VE:
On March 13 2013 05:03 VisceraEyes wrote:
His agenda of insinuating that he "always reads marv wrong" when he's never ever had to read marv ever.
On March 14 2013 08:07 Foolishness wrote:Now I don't see what's so bad about me saying this. I actually made a mistake and am correcting myself, he was right. But he flips his shit about it. I don't bring up marvellosity or this topic for a long while and he starts posting stuff like this:
Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 12:10 marvellosity wrote:On March 12 2013 12:08 Foolishness wrote:No, there's only crappy evidence on why Vivax is mafia.
When he's mafia, he spams one liners (with the very rare long post). See TL Mafia LX
here. He's mafia and he literally did nothing day 1 except post one liners and derp around.
Now look when he's town in British II
here. He barely posts any one liners, and his posts have substance; he actually says what he thinks. He doesn't derp.
And this game he doesn't have one liners and is clearly trying.
There's extremely hard evidence that you've outright lied for no reason in this game, though.
Er yes, sorry Foolishness, this is just a statement of fact. When I know someone's lied to me, damn right I'm going to bring it up. Perhaps I'm supposed to forget it... ?
On March 14 2013 08:07 Foolishness wrote:
I shouldn't need to tell you that since then his posts have consisted of "lynch foolish he's mafia" without any substance. Why is this important? He didn't react like he did when he was town. He didn't stop to think about my actions, he just started gunning for me. That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't he just play it cool like in the past and wait a day or two to hammer me once the evidence had solidified? The only reason to gun for me immediately is to push mafia agenda.
I did wait a day. Otherwise I would have pushed to lynch you on the spot. Did I do that? No, I did not. I looked for other targets to lynch one. In fact quite clearly I did not immediately try to get you lynched for it.
On March 14 2013 08:07 Foolishness wrote:
This may be a bit WIFOM, but it makes perfect sense why I didn't die night 1 if he's mafia. Imagine marvellosity making the post in the quicktopic: "foolishness is no threat guys, I can hammer him hard the entire game like I did in the past, let's kill other important players like BC and VE and supersoft". And that's what he does and that's all he does. Where is his contribution? He hasn't made a case against me. He brings up awful arguments. He quotes numbers and statistics and say it means something when they don't. He spams up the thread with memes about the things I say. He's not helping the town, he's derailing it.
It's getting really desperate now. "This may be a bit WIFOM" - you don't say, Foolish? It's more than a bit WIFOM, you're just making shit up to fit your story that I've amply destroyed already. Then more sensationalist stuff about awful arguments and quoting statistics that don't mean everything. The fact Foolish has never been lynched as town is an excellent statistic, as it amply demonstrates that Foolishness literally never fails at demonstrating that he's town. Never. And yet he failed to do so this game. This isn't irrelevant, it's a broad brush meta point on how good Foolish is at establishing his innocence. The fact he's dismissing it is stupid.
On March 14 2013 08:07 Foolishness wrote:
That was rather long, can you summarize that?
I set a trap for marvellosity to see if he would act like he normally does when he's town. He didn't. This further shows that his actions to get me lynched pushes a mafia agenda by derailing the thread and keeping the town from getting organized. His tunneling me is not how he plays when he's town, and if he was town there was very little reason for him to take this course of action, especially since I never originally voted for him, or hard called him out. (In fact, I never said I was sold on him being mafia until day 2, and never said anything about him in between my first post and then).
That's a lot of emphasis just to set a trap. How do you know it actually means something? He could just be conceited and acting this way because that's how he is.
That's a true statement, however his actions are not congruent with his normal town play outside of this. Furthermore he's derailing the town and not helping to organize it. On it's own, no the trap doesn't mean anything. But all of the evidence combined together is what makes it solid, and why it is proof to him being mafia.
In short, all of this is basically completely untrue and I've demonstrated as much. Tunnelling is very much how I can play as town, but even if it weren't, the fact is that I was going for Corazon until HiroPro pulled me back towards Foolishness. He says my actions are not congruent with my normal town play, but they simple are, and he'd know as much if he checked my meta properly, but he hasn't, not in the slightest. Everything he says is a lie or cherrypicked.
His elaborate 'trap' is simply a post-facto explanation for his major fuckups earlier in the thread. It reads kinda pretty but it's simply a cover for the fact he slipped. The very fact that Foolishness is expecting a different reaction from town-marv when it's pretty apparent he lied and deceived is astonishing. So astonishing in fact it can't be true.
This is all quite apart from the other facets of Foolish's play that indicate him being mafia.
- his uninvolvedness
- a bad throwaway read on Vivax
- his clear demonstration that he is not reading the thread, e.g. the nuke business
- his very convenient roleclaims. austinmcc has said a lot on this and he's said it very well indeed. Claiming unlynchable is very convenient, isn't it? prplhz has a power where he can be unlynchable once if he decides a day in advance, and yet Foolishness is simply unlynchable? No thanks. austin also talks about how he tries to use these other things like this supposedly dud shot on yamato (also incredibly convenient) to prove his townieness. It's all just so much nonsense.
- his reads are poor or have inconsistencies. Nullish on crossfire earlier? no. yamato mafia? I've destroyed that case. me mafia? I've destroyed that case too.
EPT
