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On March 01 2013 21:36 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:33 Rannasha wrote:On March 01 2013 21:30 bo1b wrote:On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period.
Rofl. Hey, the 1 supply 2 armor Roach was pretty good in beta. He was talking about the queen, I doubt he even played when the roach's cost 1 supply. And he sure as shit implied that Zergs have been op since the beta continuously which is just lolzish.
Zerg is just a harder race to master, they need time to be on top. That's why terran got their period.
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On March 01 2013 21:35 Kreb wrote:
While obviously a lot of people will be complaining about race balance, to me a lot of the "blame" for the recent zerg domination lies on map maker (or those who choose the map pool if you like). We've pretty much constantly been going towards bigger and bigger maps all through WoL, and I definitely feel we've hit the point when its time to take a step back. Antiga wasnt a very interesting map, and Entombed might have lived its course too, but they were both felt to me like very good size. So does Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak. But when these maps are replaced by BelShir Vestige and Whirlwind (and Atlantis Spacebear before that) it just favors macro play too much.
Couple that with some very hard to defend thirds (Planet S and maybe to a lesser extent Icarus) you also give the mobile race an adantage since they can move between bases much more easily to defend. They also dont suffer from open areas outside their base which are hard to defend (Planet S, Whirlwind).
The other mid-sized maps had their problems too (Im not too fond of how Daybreak always seem to favor 5base vs 5base plays for example), but we should be looking towards those sizes. And the 3rd should be relatively easily defended. Cloud Kingdom is pretty much the role model map to me, it offers possibilities for aggression off of two bases while simultaneuosly makes taking a 3rd quite doable. It also doesnt promote turtle play like some other maps do (Metropolis, Daybreak). The high amount of passages offers great possibilites for agression on pretty much all numbers of bases. Personally I would really like to see more maps like that.
TLDR: More maps like CK. Maps should be
-Not too big
-Not have too wide open areas, especially not around bases
-Not too hard to take 3rd's
-Offer multiple attack paths
I agree. Cloud Kingdom is the best SC2 map we've seen by far, and map makers in general need to help with the balance of the game at the pro level. Kespa map makers are going to help out with this (look at bifrost). I think Icarus was an attempt to address this as well.
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United States2209 Posts
On March 01 2013 21:36 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:33 Rannasha wrote:On March 01 2013 21:30 bo1b wrote:On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period.
Rofl. Hey, the 1 supply 2 armor Roach was pretty good in beta. He was talking about the queen, I doubt he even played when the roach's cost 1 supply. And he sure as shit implied that Zergs have been op since the beta continuously which is just lolzish.
Pretty sure Zerg was ridiculously weak against Terran, which is one of the many reasons we all loved Fruitdealer and by extension Nestea, who was pretty much the only Zerg that knew how to handle Terrans.
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On March 01 2013 21:39 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:36 bo1b wrote:On March 01 2013 21:33 Rannasha wrote:On March 01 2013 21:30 bo1b wrote:On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period.
Rofl. Hey, the 1 supply 2 armor Roach was pretty good in beta. He was talking about the queen, I doubt he even played when the roach's cost 1 supply. And he sure as shit implied that Zergs have been op since the beta continuously which is just lolzish. Pretty sure Zerg was ridiculously weak against Terran, which is one of the many reasons we all loved Fruitdealer and by extension Nestea, who was pretty much the only Zerg that knew how to handle Terrans.
Yep, nestea showing the path of 15 hatch was massive, and fruitdealers run was very impressive.
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On March 01 2013 21:39 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:36 bo1b wrote:On March 01 2013 21:33 Rannasha wrote:On March 01 2013 21:30 bo1b wrote:On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period.
Rofl. Hey, the 1 supply 2 armor Roach was pretty good in beta. He was talking about the queen, I doubt he even played when the roach's cost 1 supply. And he sure as shit implied that Zergs have been op since the beta continuously which is just lolzish. Pretty sure Zerg was ridiculously weak against Terran, which is one of the many reasons we all loved Fruitdealer and by extension Nestea, who was pretty much the only Zerg that knew how to handle Terrans.
Fruidealer stopping the reaper bullshit back then was like magic. He even defended nonsense like a tank on the cliff overlooking your natural.
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Helll yeaaahhh!
What a perfect ending to WoL.
Swarm + Kespa is coming in HoTS!!!!!
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On March 01 2013 21:38 edgeOut wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:36 bo1b wrote:On March 01 2013 21:33 Rannasha wrote:On March 01 2013 21:30 bo1b wrote:On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period.
Rofl. Hey, the 1 supply 2 armor Roach was pretty good in beta. He was talking about the queen, I doubt he even played when the roach's cost 1 supply. And he sure as shit implied that Zergs have been op since the beta continuously which is just lolzish. Zerg is just a harder race to master, they need time to be on top. That's why terran got their period.
Maybe, but not so much different from terran in difficulty that there was an 18 month stretch of terrans dominating.
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On March 01 2013 21:40 papaz wrote:
Helll yeaaahhh!
What a perfect ending to WoL.
Swarm + Kespa is coming in HoTS!!!!!
Nope. I hope they won't fix zerg's state in HotS 
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On March 01 2013 21:40 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:39 Xpace wrote:On March 01 2013 21:36 bo1b wrote:On March 01 2013 21:33 Rannasha wrote:On March 01 2013 21:30 bo1b wrote:On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period.
Rofl. Hey, the 1 supply 2 armor Roach was pretty good in beta. He was talking about the queen, I doubt he even played when the roach's cost 1 supply. And he sure as shit implied that Zergs have been op since the beta continuously which is just lolzish. Pretty sure Zerg was ridiculously weak against Terran, which is one of the many reasons we all loved Fruitdealer and by extension Nestea, who was pretty much the only Zerg that knew how to handle Terrans. Fruidealer stopping the reaper bullshit back then was like magic. He even defended nonsense like a tank on the cliff overlooking your natural.
More exciting to me was him beating bitbybits shenanigans lol.
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Ahh well, I'm still pretty certain that this set of games in the finals will be better then MVP vs Squirtle at least.
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On March 01 2013 21:27 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 01 2013 21:04 negativedge wrote:[Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.
That's a good thing. It means the game is more competitive. It means there are more skilled players around. You knew who the best Terrans were in the middle of 2011 because people like Ensare, Bitbybit, et. al were still around. The top players were much better because the other players weren't any good. Now everyone in Code S is a gosu. How terrible! Yeah... Symbol and Roro both have some dreadfully embarrassing showings in recent history: Symbol v Curious death animation, Symbol v Snute, Roro v Bear, etc... They aren't BitByBit, and I actually like Symbol a lot, but they don't have that Life, DRG, Rain, MC, Mvp, MKP, Taeja, etc vibe about them. So, don't pretend you can take the high ground and that everyone else is stupid. It's just not black and white right now. MVP and MKP each fell to Code A during periods of Terran dominance (MKP was actually a fringe Code S player for just about the entire second half of 2011), and MVP has been wildly inconsistent since then (yes, he has regrettably had wrist troubles). Taeja is not in that group. If you want to extend it beyond Terrans, we all know of MC's inconsistencies, Rain is not at all worthy of some kind of enshrinement, DRG went through a 4 month period in which he was not considered a serious contender for major tournaments. You're making things up.
I'm making up that Mvp was dominant in WoL? Honestly now... You're just arguing for the sake of arguing with no restraint or reason.
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This was a great series, really fun to watch, and the outcome was very unexpected. Looking forward to this ZvZ finals, such a great matchup, haven't seen a ZvZ finals in a while!
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Whoa all the /sarcasm posts all came at once  hahaha
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On March 01 2013 21:43 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:27 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 21:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 01 2013 21:04 negativedge wrote:[Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.
That's a good thing. It means the game is more competitive. It means there are more skilled players around. You knew who the best Terrans were in the middle of 2011 because people like Ensare, Bitbybit, et. al were still around. The top players were much better because the other players weren't any good. Now everyone in Code S is a gosu. How terrible! Yeah... Symbol and Roro both have some dreadfully embarrassing showings in recent history: Symbol v Curious death animation, Symbol v Snute, Roro v Bear, etc... They aren't BitByBit, and I actually like Symbol a lot, but they don't have that Life, DRG, Rain, MC, Mvp, MKP, Taeja, etc vibe about them. So, don't pretend you can take the high ground and that everyone else is stupid. It's just not black and white right now. MVP and MKP each fell to Code A during periods of Terran dominance (MKP was actually a fringe Code S player for just about the entire second half of 2011), and MVP has been wildly inconsistent since then (yes, he has regrettably had wrist troubles). Taeja is not in that group. If you want to extend it beyond Terrans, we all know of MC's inconsistencies, Rain is not at all worthy of some kind of enshrinement, DRG went through a 4 month period in which he was not considered a serious contender for major tournaments. You're making things up. I'm making up that Mvp was dominant in WoL? Honestly now... You're just arguing for the sake of arguing with no restraint or reason.
Thats not what he said at all lol.
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On March 01 2013 21:43 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:27 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 21:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 01 2013 21:04 negativedge wrote:[Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.
That's a good thing. It means the game is more competitive. It means there are more skilled players around. You knew who the best Terrans were in the middle of 2011 because people like Ensare, Bitbybit, et. al were still around. The top players were much better because the other players weren't any good. Now everyone in Code S is a gosu. How terrible! Yeah... Symbol and Roro both have some dreadfully embarrassing showings in recent history: Symbol v Curious death animation, Symbol v Snute, Roro v Bear, etc... They aren't BitByBit, and I actually like Symbol a lot, but they don't have that Life, DRG, Rain, MC, Mvp, MKP, Taeja, etc vibe about them. So, don't pretend you can take the high ground and that everyone else is stupid. It's just not black and white right now. MVP and MKP each fell to Code A during periods of Terran dominance (MKP was actually a fringe Code S player for just about the entire second half of 2011), and MVP has been wildly inconsistent since then (yes, he has regrettably had wrist troubles). Taeja is not in that group. If you want to extend it beyond Terrans, we all know of MC's inconsistencies, Rain is not at all worthy of some kind of enshrinement, DRG went through a 4 month period in which he was not considered a serious contender for major tournaments. You're making things up. I'm making up that Mvp was dominant in WoL? Honestly now... You're just arguing for the sake of arguing with no restraint or reason.
Either that or you named a whole bunch of players and have now reduced your list to exactly one. Good job.
Not that this is relevant at all, your original post attempted to claim that the Zergs today have had periods of failure, whereas the players you all named did not. Which is an extremely idiotic argument that was extremely easy to deflect by actually using my brain. But luckily you couched it all in the meaningless term "vibe" so you could rearrange the parameters of your argument when it did not turn out according to plan.
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France12738 Posts
On March 01 2013 19:53 cutler wrote:
wow...Players were disqualified for chatting...but BMing non stop is not? Dance etc...worst sportmanship ever.
RorO played really well...but shitting on your opponent?
TaeJa taking one game off a decent zerg on WoL is far more impressive than Roro 4-1ing a terran so he should not brag.
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On March 01 2013 21:44 SharkStarcraft wrote:
This was a great series, really fun to watch, and the outcome was very unexpected. Looking forward to this ZvZ finals, such a great matchup, haven't seen a ZvZ finals in a while!
9/10 well done.
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On March 01 2013 21:45 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:43 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 01 2013 21:27 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 21:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 01 2013 21:04 negativedge wrote:[Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.
That's a good thing. It means the game is more competitive. It means there are more skilled players around. You knew who the best Terrans were in the middle of 2011 because people like Ensare, Bitbybit, et. al were still around. The top players were much better because the other players weren't any good. Now everyone in Code S is a gosu. How terrible! Yeah... Symbol and Roro both have some dreadfully embarrassing showings in recent history: Symbol v Curious death animation, Symbol v Snute, Roro v Bear, etc... They aren't BitByBit, and I actually like Symbol a lot, but they don't have that Life, DRG, Rain, MC, Mvp, MKP, Taeja, etc vibe about them. So, don't pretend you can take the high ground and that everyone else is stupid. It's just not black and white right now. MVP and MKP each fell to Code A during periods of Terran dominance (MKP was actually a fringe Code S player for just about the entire second half of 2011), and MVP has been wildly inconsistent since then (yes, he has regrettably had wrist troubles). Taeja is not in that group. If you want to extend it beyond Terrans, we all know of MC's inconsistencies, Rain is not at all worthy of some kind of enshrinement, DRG went through a 4 month period in which he was not considered a serious contender for major tournaments. You're making things up. I'm making up that Mvp was dominant in WoL? Honestly now... You're just arguing for the sake of arguing with no restraint or reason. Either that or you named a whole bunch of players and have now reduced your list to exactly one. Good job.
The list is still there. I'm just pointing out that it makes no sense arguing with you. If Mvp isn't dominant, no-one I can name will be. Which is entirely unreasonable, and deep down you know you're being unreasonable. But go ahead. Keep on arguing.
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I am still baffled why people are talking about balance when this series had absolutely nothing to do with it? It is delusional fanboyism for taeja if you think he played well and lost cause zerg is OP. He went for the most standard terran macro games in a bo7 against roro, without as much as trying to surprise him with cheese or a timing. How can anyone think that what taeja did today should be enough to win him the series? I am 100% sure that players like bogus or flash would have made it a better series, not because they are necessarily better than taeja, but because they are not afraid to gamble and thus they would keep roro guessing. 11/11 proxy starports or wonky 2 base timings mixed up with strong macro builds is what will give you a shot at winning, not being the most predictable player in the world. Grow up an realize what taeja showed today was definetly not a finals worthy play.
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Netherlands201 Posts
On March 01 2013 21:38 liberate71 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:35 Kreb wrote:
TLDR: More maps like CK. Maps should be
-Not too big
-Not have too wide open areas, especially not around bases
-Not too hard to take 3rd's
-Offer multiple attack paths Yeah good call. It'd be interesting to grab a handful of maps from the "olden days" and see how they are played now. Things like Metalopolis - even just for a novelty tourney or something. Obviously they had their issues at the time, but since this current game-state evolved, we've been subjected to these large maps like you said. Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:36 Jarree wrote:On March 01 2013 21:24 liberate71 wrote:On March 01 2013 21:22 Jarree wrote:
It was funny to watch Artosis shitting on wol balance, showing relief that wol is finally ending and saying there are lots of zergs who are placing/ranked much higher than they should skill wise (SOTG). Then couple of hours later cast these games like a true professional without showing any signs of that. Have you got the link for that SOTG? I'd definitely like to watch, and I think negativedge should too  Nope watched it live, try going to JP's VODs or SOTG thread. Thanks mate, I'll have a squiz
Give us back Xel'naga Caverns!
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EPT
