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[Code S] RO4 Day 2 2013 GSL Season 1 - Page 77

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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edgeOut
Profile Joined February 2013
United States945 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-01 12:29:53
March 01 2013 12:29 GMT
#1521
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period. It's not broodlords and infestors, problem is the queen. 4 larva each time is just too much, zerg with strong econ is unstoppable.
Fuck you Zealously! For the fuck you give to those players.
SayfT
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia298 Posts
March 01 2013 12:29 GMT
#1522
I am very sad no because I have some sort of rage at balance or whatnot but because a fellow Terran is out nooooo last WoL finals is a ZvZ, will still watch the finals but would have been so much more fun if it was TvZ ><
For no man will ever turn homewards from beyond Vega to greet again those he knew and loved on Earth
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
March 01 2013 12:30 GMT
#1523
On March 01 2013 21:16 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 21:09 Ghanburighan wrote:
On March 01 2013 21:04 negativedge wrote:
[Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.


That's a good thing. It means the game is more competitive. It means there are more skilled players around. You knew who the best Terrans were in the middle of 2011 because people like Ensare, Bitbybit, et. al were still around. The top players were much better because the other players weren't any good. Now everyone in Code S is a gosu. How terrible!


Yeah... Symbol and Roro both have some dreadfully embarrassing showings in recent history:

Symbol v Curious death animation, Symbol v Snute, Roro v Bear, etc...

They aren't BitByBit, and I actually like Symbol a lot, but they don't have that Life, DRG, Rain, MC, Mvp, MKP, Taeja, etc vibe about them. So, don't pretend you can take the high ground and that everyone else is stupid. It's just not black and white right now.


I just have to jump in a little OT here; I feel that Symbol's play has lately become much more Leenock-esque, which is a good thing. He seems to be playing very cleverly, as opposed to mid-2012 when he was all about late game deathballs. Liking him more and more.

His original play was exceptional and then he fell victim to the deathball mentality. His games vs Seed were incredible, and after he lost he just never really looked the same. No one has used the zvp style that he absolutely crushed seed with, not even him. Which is a shame because ultra ling infestor was so much more enjoyable then bl/infestor, and neural is a million times more enjoyable then fungal. Maybe now that he's gotten to the finals of a gsl, and now that hes on a new team that spark will keep going.
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
March 01 2013 12:30 GMT
#1524
On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period.

Rofl.
keglu
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland485 Posts
March 01 2013 12:32 GMT
#1525
On March 01 2013 21:20 negativedge wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 21:09 liberate71 wrote:
On March 01 2013 21:07 negativedge wrote:
Let me be straight with you.

People dont have problems with Zergs winning.
People have problems with that ANY Zerg making it into Code S is a potenial candidate to win.

If One, Two or Three Zergs had shown amazing play and dominated code S for season after season after season this discussion would not excist.

You, however, seem to be blind for the fact that it seems like any top-level Z is a candidate to win Code S which is what is boring.

Had Life played DRG in the third GSL-final in row I had gladly watched and claimed them to be the two best players in the world. During the last 3 finals we have had... 5 diffrent Zerg players in the finals? It just feels random at the moment and that is what makes it sad to watch. Not especially that it is ZvZ, but that there is always new ZvZ without any signs of domination.


So exactly what I said, then.

And just in case you didn't notice, there are dominant Zerg players. Life, DRG, Leenock, and Symbol have been dominant players. Other players are good enough to beat those guys, whereas other players in GomTvT were not good enough to beat MVP et. al. So you are complaining that players are better now than they were in 2011. That's a terrible argument.


At least we've realised how you're missing the point. You're assuming the variety is due to a "larger pool of skilled players" yet all the variety falls on one race?

As mentioned earlier - the Terran skill cap was very high, and as such, a minority could compete at that level. thats not the same case here.


3) Zerg dominance now is not on the same level as Terran dominance used to be.



Based on what?
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
March 01 2013 12:32 GMT
#1526
On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period. It's not broodlords and infestors, problem is the queen. 4 larva each time is just too much, zerg with strong econ is unstoppable.

Wait wait wait, let me get this right now for a second.
You say zerg was too strong during the reaper bullshit? And during the 20code S terrans?
negativedge
Profile Joined December 2011
4279 Posts
March 01 2013 12:32 GMT
#1527
On March 01 2013 21:32 keglu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 21:20 negativedge wrote:
On March 01 2013 21:09 liberate71 wrote:
On March 01 2013 21:07 negativedge wrote:
Let me be straight with you.

People dont have problems with Zergs winning.
People have problems with that ANY Zerg making it into Code S is a potenial candidate to win.

If One, Two or Three Zergs had shown amazing play and dominated code S for season after season after season this discussion would not excist.

You, however, seem to be blind for the fact that it seems like any top-level Z is a candidate to win Code S which is what is boring.

Had Life played DRG in the third GSL-final in row I had gladly watched and claimed them to be the two best players in the world. During the last 3 finals we have had... 5 diffrent Zerg players in the finals? It just feels random at the moment and that is what makes it sad to watch. Not especially that it is ZvZ, but that there is always new ZvZ without any signs of domination.


So exactly what I said, then.

And just in case you didn't notice, there are dominant Zerg players. Life, DRG, Leenock, and Symbol have been dominant players. Other players are good enough to beat those guys, whereas other players in GomTvT were not good enough to beat MVP et. al. So you are complaining that players are better now than they were in 2011. That's a terrible argument.


At least we've realised how you're missing the point. You're assuming the variety is due to a "larger pool of skilled players" yet all the variety falls on one race?

As mentioned earlier - the Terran skill cap was very high, and as such, a minority could compete at that level. thats not the same case here.


3) Zerg dominance now is not on the same level as Terran dominance used to be.



Based on what?


based on the last ten pages of posts. go read them.
edgeOut
Profile Joined February 2013
United States945 Posts
March 01 2013 12:32 GMT
#1528
On March 01 2013 21:30 bo1b wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period.

Rofl.

Your room's floor must be very clean. Hope you shower though.
Fuck you Zealously! For the fuck you give to those players.
Uni1987
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands642 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-01 12:33:24
March 01 2013 12:33 GMT
#1529
On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period. It's not broodlords and infestors, problem is the queen. 4 larva each time is just too much, zerg with strong econ is unstoppable.


Just as long as people like you have been whining... So much tears tt
.............
Rannasha
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Netherlands2398 Posts
March 01 2013 12:33 GMT
#1530
On March 01 2013 21:30 bo1b wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period.

Rofl.


Hey, the 1 supply 2 armor Roach was pretty good in beta.
Such flammable little insects!
illidanx
Profile Joined November 2011
United States973 Posts
March 01 2013 12:33 GMT
#1531
ROROLLLLLEDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!! Kespa powa!!!!
Die-hard KeSPA fan
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
March 01 2013 12:33 GMT
#1532
On March 01 2013 21:32 keglu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 21:20 negativedge wrote:
On March 01 2013 21:09 liberate71 wrote:
On March 01 2013 21:07 negativedge wrote:
Let me be straight with you.

People dont have problems with Zergs winning.
People have problems with that ANY Zerg making it into Code S is a potenial candidate to win.

If One, Two or Three Zergs had shown amazing play and dominated code S for season after season after season this discussion would not excist.

You, however, seem to be blind for the fact that it seems like any top-level Z is a candidate to win Code S which is what is boring.

Had Life played DRG in the third GSL-final in row I had gladly watched and claimed them to be the two best players in the world. During the last 3 finals we have had... 5 diffrent Zerg players in the finals? It just feels random at the moment and that is what makes it sad to watch. Not especially that it is ZvZ, but that there is always new ZvZ without any signs of domination.


So exactly what I said, then.

And just in case you didn't notice, there are dominant Zerg players. Life, DRG, Leenock, and Symbol have been dominant players. Other players are good enough to beat those guys, whereas other players in GomTvT were not good enough to beat MVP et. al. So you are complaining that players are better now than they were in 2011. That's a terrible argument.


At least we've realised how you're missing the point. You're assuming the variety is due to a "larger pool of skilled players" yet all the variety falls on one race?

As mentioned earlier - the Terran skill cap was very high, and as such, a minority could compete at that level. thats not the same case here.


3) Zerg dominance now is not on the same level as Terran dominance used to be.



Based on what?

Based on numbers, this is the first season that there been more zergs then terran in code S.
Yet how much seasons we had terran completely dominating code S? GSL october 2011, 20 terrans...
ChrisXIV
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Austria3553 Posts
March 01 2013 12:34 GMT
#1533
On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period. It's not broodlords and infestors, problem is the queen. 4 larva each time is just too much, zerg with strong econ is unstoppable.

Maybe you're talking about the 1 supply Roaches in beta? Z only got strong after their buffs to the Infestor and Queen.
"Just stay on 1 base, make a lot of shit, keep attacking. It doesn't work? Keep attacking." -Chill
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
March 01 2013 12:35 GMT
#1534
On March 01 2013 21:32 keglu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 21:20 negativedge wrote:
On March 01 2013 21:09 liberate71 wrote:
On March 01 2013 21:07 negativedge wrote:
Let me be straight with you.

People dont have problems with Zergs winning.
People have problems with that ANY Zerg making it into Code S is a potenial candidate to win.

If One, Two or Three Zergs had shown amazing play and dominated code S for season after season after season this discussion would not excist.

You, however, seem to be blind for the fact that it seems like any top-level Z is a candidate to win Code S which is what is boring.

Had Life played DRG in the third GSL-final in row I had gladly watched and claimed them to be the two best players in the world. During the last 3 finals we have had... 5 diffrent Zerg players in the finals? It just feels random at the moment and that is what makes it sad to watch. Not especially that it is ZvZ, but that there is always new ZvZ without any signs of domination.


So exactly what I said, then.

And just in case you didn't notice, there are dominant Zerg players. Life, DRG, Leenock, and Symbol have been dominant players. Other players are good enough to beat those guys, whereas other players in GomTvT were not good enough to beat MVP et. al. So you are complaining that players are better now than they were in 2011. That's a terrible argument.


At least we've realised how you're missing the point. You're assuming the variety is due to a "larger pool of skilled players" yet all the variety falls on one race?

As mentioned earlier - the Terran skill cap was very high, and as such, a minority could compete at that level. thats not the same case here.


3) Zerg dominance now is not on the same level as Terran dominance used to be.



Based on what?

Based on reality? Zerg dominance atm is disgusting but pretending its anywhere near the same as terran dominance for the same level or the same length of time is silly.
Kreb
Profile Joined September 2010
4834 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-01 12:35:50
March 01 2013 12:35 GMT
#1535
While obviously a lot of people will be complaining about race balance, to me a lot of the "blame" for the recent zerg domination lies on map maker (or those who choose the map pool if you like). We've pretty much constantly been going towards bigger and bigger maps all through WoL, and I definitely feel we've hit the point when its time to take a step back. Antiga wasnt a very interesting map, and Entombed might have lived its course too, but they were both felt to me like very good size. So does Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak. But when these maps are replaced by BelShir Vestige and Whirlwind (and Atlantis Spacebear before that) it just favors macro play too much.

Couple that with some very hard to defend thirds (Planet S and maybe to a lesser extent Icarus) you also give the mobile race an adantage since they can move between bases much more easily to defend. They also dont suffer from open areas outside their base which are hard to defend (Planet S, Whirlwind).

The other mid-sized maps had their problems too (Im not too fond of how Daybreak always seem to favor 5base vs 5base plays for example), but we should be looking towards those sizes. And the 3rd should be relatively easily defended. Cloud Kingdom is pretty much the role model map to me, it offers possibilities for aggression off of two bases while simultaneuosly makes taking a 3rd quite doable. It also doesnt promote turtle play like some other maps do (Metropolis, Daybreak). The high amount of passages offers great possibilites for agression on pretty much all numbers of bases. Personally I would really like to see more maps like that.

TLDR: More maps like CK. Maps should be
-Not too big
-Not have too wide open areas, especially not around bases
-Not too hard to take 3rd's
-Offer multiple attack paths
Jarree
Profile Joined January 2012
Finland1004 Posts
March 01 2013 12:36 GMT
#1536
On March 01 2013 21:24 liberate71 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 21:22 Jarree wrote:
It was funny to watch Artosis shitting on wol balance, showing relief that wol is finally ending and saying there are lots of zergs who are placing/ranked much higher than they should skill wise (SOTG). Then couple of hours later cast these games like a true professional without showing any signs of that.


Have you got the link for that SOTG? I'd definitely like to watch, and I think negativedge should too

Nope watched it live, try going to JP's VODs or SOTG thread.
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
March 01 2013 12:36 GMT
#1537
On March 01 2013 21:33 Rannasha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 21:30 bo1b wrote:
On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period.

Rofl.


Hey, the 1 supply 2 armor Roach was pretty good in beta.

He was talking about the queen, I doubt he even played when the roach's cost 1 supply. And he sure as shit implied that Zergs have been op since the beta continuously which is just lolzish.
edgeOut
Profile Joined February 2013
United States945 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-01 12:41:24
March 01 2013 12:37 GMT
#1538
On March 01 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 21:29 edgeOut wrote:
Always believe Zerg is too strong even in WOL beta period. It's not broodlords and infestors, problem is the queen. 4 larva each time is just too much, zerg with strong econ is unstoppable.


Just as long as people like you have been whining... So much tears tt


I'm not whining, I play zerg and I am a KeSPA fan, and love roro for several years already. That's just my thought, queen is the most important part of zerg domination.
Fuck you Zealously! For the fuck you give to those players.
bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
March 01 2013 12:38 GMT
#1539
On March 01 2013 21:35 Kreb wrote:
While obviously a lot of people will be complaining about race balance, to me a lot of the "blame" for the recent zerg domination lies on map maker (or those who choose the map pool if you like). We've pretty much constantly been going towards bigger and bigger maps all through WoL, and I definitely feel we've hit the point when its time to take a step back. Antiga wasnt a very interesting map, and Entombed might have lived its course too, but they were both felt to me like very good size. So does Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak. But when these maps are replaced by BelShir Vestige and Whirlwind (and Atlantis Spacebear before that) it just favors macro play too much.

Couple that with some very hard to defend thirds (Planet S and maybe to a lesser extent Icarus) you also give the mobile race an adantage since they can move between bases much more easily to defend. They also dont suffer from open areas outside their base which are hard to defend (Planet S, Whirlwind).

The other mid-sized maps had their problems too (Im not too fond of how Daybreak always seem to favor 5base vs 5base plays for example), but we should be looking towards those sizes. And the 3rd should be relatively easily defended. Cloud Kingdom is pretty much the role model map to me, it offers possibilities for aggression off of two bases while simultaneuosly makes taking a 3rd quite doable. It also doesnt promote turtle play like some other maps do (Metropolis, Daybreak). The high amount of passages offers great possibilites for agression on pretty much all numbers of bases. Personally I would really like to see more maps like that.

TLDR: More maps like CK. Maps should be
-Not too big
-Not have too wide open areas, especially not around bases
-Not too hard to take 3rd's
-Offer multiple attack paths

Yeah its weird, map makers keep making maps like zerg is just going to die early game when thats clearly not the case. I honestly wonder what the balance would be like if there were rocks at the third again.
liberate71
Profile Joined October 2011
Australia10252 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-01 12:39:17
March 01 2013 12:38 GMT
#1540
On March 01 2013 21:35 Kreb wrote:
TLDR: More maps like CK. Maps should be
-Not too big
-Not have too wide open areas, especially not around bases
-Not too hard to take 3rd's
-Offer multiple attack paths


Yeah good call. It'd be interesting to grab a handful of maps from the "olden days" and see how they are played now. Things like Metalopolis - even just for a novelty tourney or something. Obviously they had their issues at the time, but since this current game-state evolved, we've been subjected to these large maps like you said.

On March 01 2013 21:36 Jarree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 21:24 liberate71 wrote:
On March 01 2013 21:22 Jarree wrote:
It was funny to watch Artosis shitting on wol balance, showing relief that wol is finally ending and saying there are lots of zergs who are placing/ranked much higher than they should skill wise (SOTG). Then couple of hours later cast these games like a true professional without showing any signs of that.


Have you got the link for that SOTG? I'd definitely like to watch, and I think negativedge should too

Nope watched it live, try going to JP's VODs or SOTG thread.


Thanks mate, I'll have a squiz
Minelord Stimfestor, also known as karma.
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