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On March 01 2013 21:00 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 20:54 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On March 01 2013 20:52 Big J wrote:On March 01 2013 20:44 Talack wrote:On March 01 2013 20:42 negativedge wrote:
if you dismiss these champions, then you have to dismiss the GomTvT champions. there is no way around that. give the players credit, it's not fair to dismiss them because your feelings are hurt. The TvT champions were consistently good for a very long period of time and the TvT champions almost always showed up in the top 8. This zerg meta game shit has a random zerg who didn't come top 8 the season before or ever make it to a finals and then another random zerg takes the next championship. We're tired of it, HOTS hopefully will change it or sc2 will become even more of a niche than it currently is. out of all the Zerg champions, the only one who wasn't strong for an extended periode of time is Sniper. He might pull a Jjakji. All the others have been quite dominant. Also Fruity sadly :/ Was on top of the world for a few weeks then MKP ruined the party, and Nestea showed up to completely overshadow him. Fruitdealer won 1GSL, ran into the semifinals of the next GSL and stayed in Code S until July 2011. People really forget how dominant he was in the first seasons. Sure MKP and Nestea and MC may have been better, but it's not like he fell of the radar after his title.
Huh? The best result Fruitdealer pulled after becoming a champ was ro8 in open season 3, a ro16 in May, and 2nd at an IEM. Yeah he stayed in code S, but it was pretty hard to fall out back then. He didn't completely disappear but he was definitely far from even being considered a top player, which is hardly strong and certainly not dominant.
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On March 01 2013 21:04 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +[Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.
That's a good thing. It means the game is more competitive. It means there are more skilled players around. You knew who the best Terrans were in the middle of 2011 because people like Ensare, Bitbybit, et. al were still around. The top players were much better because the other players weren't any good. Now everyone in Code S is a gosu. How terrible!
Yeah... Symbol and Roro both have some dreadfully embarrassing showings in recent history:
Symbol v Curious death animation, Symbol v Snute, Roro v Bear, etc...
They aren't BitByBit, and I actually like Symbol a lot, but they don't have that Life, DRG, Rain, MC, Mvp, MKP, Taeja, etc vibe about them. So, don't pretend you can take the high ground and that everyone else is stupid. It's just not black and white right now.
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On March 01 2013 21:09 liberate71 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:07 negativedge wrote:Let me be straight with you.
People dont have problems with Zergs winning.
People have problems with that ANY Zerg making it into Code S is a potenial candidate to win.
If One, Two or Three Zergs had shown amazing play and dominated code S for season after season after season this discussion would not excist.
You, however, seem to be blind for the fact that it seems like any top-level Z is a candidate to win Code S which is what is boring.
Had Life played DRG in the third GSL-final in row I had gladly watched and claimed them to be the two best players in the world. During the last 3 finals we have had... 5 diffrent Zerg players in the finals? It just feels random at the moment and that is what makes it sad to watch. Not especially that it is ZvZ, but that there is always new ZvZ without any signs of domination. So exactly what I said, then. And just in case you didn't notice, there are dominant Zerg players. Life, DRG, Leenock, and Symbol have been dominant players. Other players are good enough to beat those guys, whereas other players in GomTvT were not good enough to beat MVP et. al. So you are complaining that players are better now than they were in 2011. That's a terrible argument. At least we've realised how you're missing the point. You're assuming the variety is due to a "larger pool of skilled players" yet all the variety falls on one race? As mentioned earlier - the Terran skill cap was very high, and as such, a minority could compete at that level. thats not the same case here.
Nah there's tons of Protoss players that can win the GSL on any given day as well, like uh, Parting, MC, Rain, Squirtle, and uh, all those random terrans.
Or all the championship candidate terrans like Innovation, MVP, Taeja, Ryung and uh, some other guys.
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Like others said:
Ro-ro-ROLLED! Nice RorO, keep on rolling.
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United States32908 Posts
On March 01 2013 21:09 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:00 Big J wrote:On March 01 2013 20:54 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On March 01 2013 20:52 Big J wrote:On March 01 2013 20:44 Talack wrote:On March 01 2013 20:42 negativedge wrote:
if you dismiss these champions, then you have to dismiss the GomTvT champions. there is no way around that. give the players credit, it's not fair to dismiss them because your feelings are hurt. The TvT champions were consistently good for a very long period of time and the TvT champions almost always showed up in the top 8. This zerg meta game shit has a random zerg who didn't come top 8 the season before or ever make it to a finals and then another random zerg takes the next championship. We're tired of it, HOTS hopefully will change it or sc2 will become even more of a niche than it currently is. out of all the Zerg champions, the only one who wasn't strong for an extended periode of time is Sniper. He might pull a Jjakji. All the others have been quite dominant. Also Fruity sadly :/ Was on top of the world for a few weeks then MKP ruined the party, and Nestea showed up to completely overshadow him. Fruitdealer won 1GSL, ran into the semifinals of the next GSL and stayed in Code S until July 2011. People really forget how dominant he was in the first seasons. Sure MKP and Nestea and MC may have been better, but it's not like he fell of the radar after his title. Huh? The best result Fruitdealer pulled after becoming a champ was ro8 in open season 3, a ro16 in May, and 2nd at an IEM. Yeah he stayed in code S, but it was pretty hard to fall out back then. He didn't completely disappear but he was definitely far from even being considered a top player, which is hardly strong and certainly not dominant.
fruit dealer was faaar from dominant after his first GSL win
still, one of my favorite SC2 memories is him going to IEM NY, playing LOL the entire time, and still getting second place on pure talent -_-;
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Norway10161 Posts
On March 01 2013 21:09 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:04 negativedge wrote:[Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.
That's a good thing. It means the game is more competitive. It means there are more skilled players around. You knew who the best Terrans were in the middle of 2011 because people like Ensare, Bitbybit, et. al were still around. The top players were much better because the other players weren't any good. Now everyone in Code S is a gosu. How terrible! Yeah... Symbol and Roro both have some dreadfully embarrassing showings in recent history: Symbol v Curious death animation, Symbol v Snute, Roro v Bear, etc... They aren't BitByBit, and I actually like Symbol a lot, but they don't have that Life, DRG, Rain, MC, Mvp, MKP, Taeja, etc vibe about them. So, don't pretend you can take the high ground and that everyone else is stupid. It's just not black and white right now.
I just have to jump in a little OT here; I feel that Symbol's play has lately become much more Leenock-esque, which is a good thing. He seems to be playing very cleverly, as opposed to mid-2012 when he was all about late game deathballs. Liking him more and more.
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On March 01 2013 21:13 HolydaKing wrote:
Like others said:
Ro-ro-ROLLED! Nice RorO, keep on rolling.
Roro has that relaxed look before or after every game, he's either very confident or used to be in pressure situation.
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On March 01 2013 21:12 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:09 liberate71 wrote:On March 01 2013 21:07 negativedge wrote:Let me be straight with you.
People dont have problems with Zergs winning.
People have problems with that ANY Zerg making it into Code S is a potenial candidate to win.
If One, Two or Three Zergs had shown amazing play and dominated code S for season after season after season this discussion would not excist.
You, however, seem to be blind for the fact that it seems like any top-level Z is a candidate to win Code S which is what is boring.
Had Life played DRG in the third GSL-final in row I had gladly watched and claimed them to be the two best players in the world. During the last 3 finals we have had... 5 diffrent Zerg players in the finals? It just feels random at the moment and that is what makes it sad to watch. Not especially that it is ZvZ, but that there is always new ZvZ without any signs of domination. So exactly what I said, then. And just in case you didn't notice, there are dominant Zerg players. Life, DRG, Leenock, and Symbol have been dominant players. Other players are good enough to beat those guys, whereas other players in GomTvT were not good enough to beat MVP et. al. So you are complaining that players are better now than they were in 2011. That's a terrible argument. At least we've realised how you're missing the point. You're assuming the variety is due to a "larger pool of skilled players" yet all the variety falls on one race? As mentioned earlier - the Terran skill cap was very high, and as such, a minority could compete at that level. thats not the same case here. Nah there's tons of Protoss players that can win the GSL on any given day as well, like uh, Parting, MC, Rain, Squirtle, and uh, all those random terrans. Or all the championship candidate terrans like Innovation, MVP, Taeja, Ryung and uh, some other guys.
lol yeh 
Anyway I don't want to appear to be "balance whining" as I have a number of favourite players from all the races - so its not really what I want to get across or anything. I just prefered it when there were a bunch of "heroes" from each race that you could really get behind. It feels so volatile now for all the wrong reasons.
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On March 01 2013 21:09 liberate71 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:07 negativedge wrote:Let me be straight with you.
People dont have problems with Zergs winning.
People have problems with that ANY Zerg making it into Code S is a potenial candidate to win.
If One, Two or Three Zergs had shown amazing play and dominated code S for season after season after season this discussion would not excist.
You, however, seem to be blind for the fact that it seems like any top-level Z is a candidate to win Code S which is what is boring.
Had Life played DRG in the third GSL-final in row I had gladly watched and claimed them to be the two best players in the world. During the last 3 finals we have had... 5 diffrent Zerg players in the finals? It just feels random at the moment and that is what makes it sad to watch. Not especially that it is ZvZ, but that there is always new ZvZ without any signs of domination. So exactly what I said, then. And just in case you didn't notice, there are dominant Zerg players. Life, DRG, Leenock, and Symbol have been dominant players. Other players are good enough to beat those guys, whereas other players in GomTvT were not good enough to beat MVP et. al. So you are complaining that players are better now than they were in 2011. That's a terrible argument. At least we've realised how you're missing the point. You're assuming the variety is due to a "larger pool of skilled players" yet all the variety falls on one race? As mentioned earlier - the Terran skill cap was very high, and as such, a minority could compete at that level. thats not the same case here.
Zerg is the best race at the very highest levels of professional starcraft. I'm not disputing that. What I am saying is 1) it's not the best by some ridiculous margin, 2) the best Zerg players are highly skilled, and 3) Zerg dominance now is not on the same level as Terran dominance used to be. Now all of a sudden people are agreeing, but they are privileging the Terran dominance with idiotic arguments. Yes, the Terran skill cap is high. So is the Zerg skill cap. There were fewer Terrans (MAYBE) approaching it than there are Zergs currently doing the same thing because there were fewer supremely skilled players playing the game in mid 2011 than there are now. That is a fact.
And this "top 4" Terran stuff is all silly post hoc argumentation anyway. For one, you're including Polt as a dominant Terran player when, if you actually watched Starcraft during the Super Tournament era, you'd know that he came out of nowhere to win that tournament, just as Zerg players apparently do today. And even within the this supposed big 4 domination, TOP got to a finals, Jjakji won a GSL, and Bomber and Byun were contenders. How much different is that from the top tier of today's Zerg situation? Be honest with yourself.
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On March 01 2013 21:09 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:04 negativedge wrote:[Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.
That's a good thing. It means the game is more competitive. It means there are more skilled players around. You knew who the best Terrans were in the middle of 2011 because people like Ensare, Bitbybit, et. al were still around. The top players were much better because the other players weren't any good. Now everyone in Code S is a gosu. How terrible! Yeah... Symbol and Roro both have some dreadfully embarrassing showings in recent history: Symbol v Curious death animation, Symbol v Snute, Roro v Bear, etc... They aren't BitByBit, and I actually like Symbol a lot, but they don't have that Life, DRG, Rain, MC, Mvp, MKP, Taeja, etc vibe about them. So, don't pretend you can take the high ground and that everyone else is stupid. It's just not black and white right now.
Please don't put Taeja in that list...the only thing he has for him is that he's from TL(which means a lot in this site).
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It was funny to watch Artosis shitting on wol balance, showing relief that wol is finally ending and saying there are lots of zergs who are placing/ranked much higher than they should skill wise (SOTG). Then couple of hours later cast these games like a true professional without showing any signs of that.
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To say it in the words of  Ryung: IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA!
 broken for so long... WoL is gone, leaving with a bitter taste for the last period of it....
Heads up Teaja you did your best. HotS is coming 
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On March 01 2013 21:22 Jarree wrote:
It was funny to watch Artosis shitting on wol balance, showing relief that wol is finally ending and saying there are lots of zergs who are placing/ranked much higher than they should skill wise (SOTG). Then couple of hours later cast these games like a true professional without showing any signs of that.
Have you got the link for that SOTG? I'd definitely like to watch, and I think negativedge should too 
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On March 01 2013 21:22 Rhaegar_tar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 01 2013 21:04 negativedge wrote:[Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.
That's a good thing. It means the game is more competitive. It means there are more skilled players around. You knew who the best Terrans were in the middle of 2011 because people like Ensare, Bitbybit, et. al were still around. The top players were much better because the other players weren't any good. Now everyone in Code S is a gosu. How terrible! Yeah... Symbol and Roro both have some dreadfully embarrassing showings in recent history: Symbol v Curious death animation, Symbol v Snute, Roro v Bear, etc... They aren't BitByBit, and I actually like Symbol a lot, but they don't have that Life, DRG, Rain, MC, Mvp, MKP, Taeja, etc vibe about them. So, don't pretend you can take the high ground and that everyone else is stupid. It's just not black and white right now. Please don't put Taeja in that list...the only thing he has for him is that he's from TL(which means a lot in this site).
Yeah, not like he got to the fucking GSL semifinals or anything...
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United States2209 Posts
On March 01 2013 21:22 Rhaegar_tar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 01 2013 21:04 negativedge wrote:[Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.
That's a good thing. It means the game is more competitive. It means there are more skilled players around. You knew who the best Terrans were in the middle of 2011 because people like Ensare, Bitbybit, et. al were still around. The top players were much better because the other players weren't any good. Now everyone in Code S is a gosu. How terrible! Yeah... Symbol and Roro both have some dreadfully embarrassing showings in recent history: Symbol v Curious death animation, Symbol v Snute, Roro v Bear, etc... They aren't BitByBit, and I actually like Symbol a lot, but they don't have that Life, DRG, Rain, MC, Mvp, MKP, Taeja, etc vibe about them. So, don't pretend you can take the high ground and that everyone else is stupid. It's just not black and white right now. Please don't put Taeja in that list...the only thing he has for him is that he's from TL(which means a lot in this site).
You weren't around when Taeja was destroying Code S players on Korean weeklys, destroying faces after being signed by the best non-Korean SC talent scout, then carrying an entire team on his shoulders on more than a few occasions, huh...
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I hate roro. Everytime I vote for him he loses, and every time I don't he wins. bleh
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On March 01 2013 21:09 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:04 negativedge wrote:[Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.
That's a good thing. It means the game is more competitive. It means there are more skilled players around. You knew who the best Terrans were in the middle of 2011 because people like Ensare, Bitbybit, et. al were still around. The top players were much better because the other players weren't any good. Now everyone in Code S is a gosu. How terrible! Yeah... Symbol and Roro both have some dreadfully embarrassing showings in recent history: Symbol v Curious death animation, Symbol v Snute, Roro v Bear, etc... They aren't BitByBit, and I actually like Symbol a lot, but they don't have that Life, DRG, Rain, MC, Mvp, MKP, Taeja, etc vibe about them. So, don't pretend you can take the high ground and that everyone else is stupid. It's just not black and white right now.
MVP and MKP each fell to Code A during periods of Terran dominance (MKP was actually a fringe Code S player for just about the entire second half of 2011), and MVP has been wildly inconsistent since then (yes, he has regrettably had wrist troubles). Taeja is not in that group. If you want to extend it beyond Terrans, we all know of MC's inconsistencies, Rain is not at all worthy of some kind of enshrinement, DRG went through a 4 month period in which he was not considered a serious contender for major tournaments. You're making things up.
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On March 01 2013 21:20 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:09 liberate71 wrote:On March 01 2013 21:07 negativedge wrote:Let me be straight with you.
People dont have problems with Zergs winning.
People have problems with that ANY Zerg making it into Code S is a potenial candidate to win.
If One, Two or Three Zergs had shown amazing play and dominated code S for season after season after season this discussion would not excist.
You, however, seem to be blind for the fact that it seems like any top-level Z is a candidate to win Code S which is what is boring.
Had Life played DRG in the third GSL-final in row I had gladly watched and claimed them to be the two best players in the world. During the last 3 finals we have had... 5 diffrent Zerg players in the finals? It just feels random at the moment and that is what makes it sad to watch. Not especially that it is ZvZ, but that there is always new ZvZ without any signs of domination. So exactly what I said, then. And just in case you didn't notice, there are dominant Zerg players. Life, DRG, Leenock, and Symbol have been dominant players. Other players are good enough to beat those guys, whereas other players in GomTvT were not good enough to beat MVP et. al. So you are complaining that players are better now than they were in 2011. That's a terrible argument. At least we've realised how you're missing the point. You're assuming the variety is due to a "larger pool of skilled players" yet all the variety falls on one race? As mentioned earlier - the Terran skill cap was very high, and as such, a minority could compete at that level. thats not the same case here. Zerg is the best race at the very highest levels of professional starcraft. I'm not disputing that. What I am saying is 1) it's not the best by some ridiculous margin, 2) the best Zerg players are highly skilled, and 3) Zerg dominance now is not on the same level as Terran dominance used to be. Now all of a sudden people are agreeing, but they are privileging the Terran dominance with idiotic arguments. Yes, the Terran skill cap is high. So is the Zerg skill cap. There were fewer Terrans (MAYBE) approaching it than there are Zergs currently doing the same thing because there were fewer supremely skilled players playing the game in mid 2011 than there are now. That is a fact. And this "top 4" Terran stuff is all silly post hoc argumentation anyway. For one, you're including Polt as a dominant Terran player when, if you actually watched Starcraft during the Super Tournament era, you'd know that he came out of nowhere to win that tournament, just as Zerg players apparently do today. And even within the this supposed big 4 domination, TOP got to a finals, Jjakji won a GSL, and Bomber and Byun were contenders. How much different is that from the top tier of today's Zerg situation? Be honest with yourself.
The difference is that it was never all at the same time. Even during the height of GomTvT, there weren't as many championship contenders from T as there are from Z now. And if Z/T are equally hard to play, how do you explain this graphic:
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Ver/sc2/funnyarticle/new/real/secondary/rsz_since_mlg_anaheim_korean.jpg)
And remember, saying 'x race players are just better' isn't a valid excuse as debunked by you. Better koreans don't play Terran just like better foreigners don't play Zerg.
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On March 01 2013 21:25 Vesky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 21:22 Rhaegar_tar wrote:On March 01 2013 21:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 01 2013 21:04 negativedge wrote:[Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.
That's a good thing. It means the game is more competitive. It means there are more skilled players around. You knew who the best Terrans were in the middle of 2011 because people like Ensare, Bitbybit, et. al were still around. The top players were much better because the other players weren't any good. Now everyone in Code S is a gosu. How terrible! Yeah... Symbol and Roro both have some dreadfully embarrassing showings in recent history: Symbol v Curious death animation, Symbol v Snute, Roro v Bear, etc... They aren't BitByBit, and I actually like Symbol a lot, but they don't have that Life, DRG, Rain, MC, Mvp, MKP, Taeja, etc vibe about them. So, don't pretend you can take the high ground and that everyone else is stupid. It's just not black and white right now. Please don't put Taeja in that list...the only thing he has for him is that he's from TL(which means a lot in this site). Yeah, not like he got to the fucking GSL semifinals or anything...
Yeah or...
![[image loading]](http://i49.tinypic.com/112h7xw.jpg)
Amongst other very strong showings in mid 2012
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EPT
