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On March 01 2013 20:53 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 20:49 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 01 2013 20:46 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:44 Talack wrote:On March 01 2013 20:42 negativedge wrote:
if you dismiss these champions, then you have to dismiss the GomTvT champions. there is no way around that. give the players credit, it's not fair to dismiss them because your feelings are hurt. The TvT champions were consistently good for a very long period of time and the TvT champions almost always showed up in the top 8. This zerg meta game shit has a random zerg who didn't come top 8 the season before or ever make it to a finals and then another random zerg takes the next championship. We're tired of it, HOTS hopefully will change it or sc2 will become even more of a niche than it currently is. yes, Roro is a "random" zerg. specifically because you don't watch proleague. Symbol, who has been one of the top five zergs on the planet for nearly a full year is a "random" zerg. good to know. and I didn't know it was required for a game to be dominated by the same people in order to be worth viewing. I guess I better stop watching the NFL, which is the most popular sporting league in America. Life, Leenock, Sniper, Hyun, Symbol, Roro, DRG... Etc. Etc. Yes, those players are all "random." If you want to stretch it, you can say Sniper and Hyun "came from nowhere," but that's it. And it is far too early to make a call on either of them. I don't get the argument that TvT was somehow more valid because the top tier players were more consistently top tier. If anything, that's preference. If you watch baseball, do you think it is good that the Yankees are always good? Real Madrid in soccer? And even if you hate parity for some reason, check it out, GomTvT era consistently had over 15 Terrans in Code S. There have never been 15 Zergs in Code S. So your rule would only apply to the very very top of the pile. There are maybe ten Zerg players on the planet capable of winning a GSL. Give them credit.
With the difference that during the GomTvT era there was not 15 Terrans who actually could win Code S 
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Netherlands2895 Posts
On March 01 2013 20:53 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 20:49 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 01 2013 20:46 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:44 Talack wrote:On March 01 2013 20:42 negativedge wrote:
if you dismiss these champions, then you have to dismiss the GomTvT champions. there is no way around that. give the players credit, it's not fair to dismiss them because your feelings are hurt. The TvT champions were consistently good for a very long period of time and the TvT champions almost always showed up in the top 8. This zerg meta game shit has a random zerg who didn't come top 8 the season before or ever make it to a finals and then another random zerg takes the next championship. We're tired of it, HOTS hopefully will change it or sc2 will become even more of a niche than it currently is. yes, Roro is a "random" zerg. specifically because you don't watch proleague. Symbol, who has been one of the top five zergs on the planet for nearly a full year is a "random" zerg. good to know. and I didn't know it was required for a game to be dominated by the same people in order to be worth viewing. I guess I better stop watching the NFL, which is the most popular sporting league in America. Life, Leenock, Sniper, Hyun, Symbol, Roro, DRG... Etc. Etc. Yes, those players are all "random." If you want to stretch it, you can say Sniper and Hyun "came from nowhere," but that's it. And it is far too early to make a call on either of them. I don't get the argument that TvT was somehow more valid because the top tier players were more consistently top tier. If anything, that's preference. If you watch baseball, do you think it is good that the Yankees are always good? Real Madrid in soccer? And even if you hate parity for some reason, check it out, GomTvT era consistently had over 15 Terrans in Code S. There have never been 15 Zergs in Code S. So your rule would only apply to the very very top of the pile. There are maybe ten Zerg players on the planet capable of winning a GSL. Give them credit.
Even during the GomTvT era, nobody ever thought of players like Ensnare as championship quality. There's maybe 10 zergs in the world capable of winning a GSL, namely all the zergs currently in code S.
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On March 01 2013 20:55 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 20:53 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:49 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 01 2013 20:46 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:44 Talack wrote:On March 01 2013 20:42 negativedge wrote:
if you dismiss these champions, then you have to dismiss the GomTvT champions. there is no way around that. give the players credit, it's not fair to dismiss them because your feelings are hurt. The TvT champions were consistently good for a very long period of time and the TvT champions almost always showed up in the top 8. This zerg meta game shit has a random zerg who didn't come top 8 the season before or ever make it to a finals and then another random zerg takes the next championship. We're tired of it, HOTS hopefully will change it or sc2 will become even more of a niche than it currently is. yes, Roro is a "random" zerg. specifically because you don't watch proleague. Symbol, who has been one of the top five zergs on the planet for nearly a full year is a "random" zerg. good to know. and I didn't know it was required for a game to be dominated by the same people in order to be worth viewing. I guess I better stop watching the NFL, which is the most popular sporting league in America. Life, Leenock, Sniper, Hyun, Symbol, Roro, DRG... Etc. Etc. Yes, those players are all "random." If you want to stretch it, you can say Sniper and Hyun "came from nowhere," but that's it. And it is far too early to make a call on either of them. I don't get the argument that TvT was somehow more valid because the top tier players were more consistently top tier. If anything, that's preference. If you watch baseball, do you think it is good that the Yankees are always good? Real Madrid in soccer? And even if you hate parity for some reason, check it out, GomTvT era consistently had over 15 Terrans in Code S. There have never been 15 Zergs in Code S. So your rule would only apply to the very very top of the pile. There are maybe ten Zerg players on the planet capable of winning a GSL. Give them credit. With the difference that during the GomTvT era there was not 15 Terrans who actually could win Code S.
It would be hard to argue that there are 15 Zergs that could win Code S, considering there have never even been 15 Zergs in any given Code S season.
But again: this is the most trivial way to judge balance that I've ever seen. The fact that 4 Terrans were the best 4 completely negates the fact that entire tournaments were nothing but Terran over and over again? Why does that even matter? And you know what? If Sniper won another GSL you would just hate on him more, this "the best 4 Terrans" argument is a smoke screen.
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Looking at the amount of balance whining here (or design whining, as it's now called), I don't think it's worth catching the vods of this series 
Go go Symbol, beat charity zerg.
And welcome HoTS. May the reapers mine a hell'uva lot of zerg tears.
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I'm actually pretty sad that Wings of Liberty is going to end with yet another finals that likely a good portion of fans won't bother to watch =( WoL had its balance issues over the years, but theres been a lot of epic games/series throughout, yet the amount of good finals we got in the GSL was far and few...
Here's to hoping HOTS will make SC2 more enjoyable for players and fans alike~
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On March 01 2013 20:56 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 20:53 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:49 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 01 2013 20:46 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:44 Talack wrote:On March 01 2013 20:42 negativedge wrote:
if you dismiss these champions, then you have to dismiss the GomTvT champions. there is no way around that. give the players credit, it's not fair to dismiss them because your feelings are hurt. The TvT champions were consistently good for a very long period of time and the TvT champions almost always showed up in the top 8. This zerg meta game shit has a random zerg who didn't come top 8 the season before or ever make it to a finals and then another random zerg takes the next championship. We're tired of it, HOTS hopefully will change it or sc2 will become even more of a niche than it currently is. yes, Roro is a "random" zerg. specifically because you don't watch proleague. Symbol, who has been one of the top five zergs on the planet for nearly a full year is a "random" zerg. good to know. and I didn't know it was required for a game to be dominated by the same people in order to be worth viewing. I guess I better stop watching the NFL, which is the most popular sporting league in America. Life, Leenock, Sniper, Hyun, Symbol, Roro, DRG... Etc. Etc. Yes, those players are all "random." If you want to stretch it, you can say Sniper and Hyun "came from nowhere," but that's it. And it is far too early to make a call on either of them. I don't get the argument that TvT was somehow more valid because the top tier players were more consistently top tier. If anything, that's preference. If you watch baseball, do you think it is good that the Yankees are always good? Real Madrid in soccer? And even if you hate parity for some reason, check it out, GomTvT era consistently had over 15 Terrans in Code S. There have never been 15 Zergs in Code S. So your rule would only apply to the very very top of the pile. There are maybe ten Zerg players on the planet capable of winning a GSL. Give them credit. Even during the GomTvT era, nobody ever thought of players like Ensnare as championship quality. There's maybe 10 zergs in the world capable of winning a GSL, namely all the zergs currently in code S.
So let me get this straight: you like it better when the vast majority of a tournament is completely inconsequential?
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On March 01 2013 20:54 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 20:52 Big J wrote:On March 01 2013 20:44 Talack wrote:On March 01 2013 20:42 negativedge wrote:
if you dismiss these champions, then you have to dismiss the GomTvT champions. there is no way around that. give the players credit, it's not fair to dismiss them because your feelings are hurt. The TvT champions were consistently good for a very long period of time and the TvT champions almost always showed up in the top 8. This zerg meta game shit has a random zerg who didn't come top 8 the season before or ever make it to a finals and then another random zerg takes the next championship. We're tired of it, HOTS hopefully will change it or sc2 will become even more of a niche than it currently is. out of all the Zerg champions, the only one who wasn't strong for an extended periode of time is Sniper. He might pull a Jjakji. All the others have been quite dominant. Also Fruity sadly :/ Was on top of the world for a few weeks then MKP ruined the party, and Nestea showed up to completely overshadow him.
Fruitdealer won 1GSL, ran into the semifinals of the next GSL and stayed in Code S until July 2011.
People really forget how dominant he was in the first seasons. Sure MKP and Nestea and MC may have been better, but it's not like he fell of the radar after his title.
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On March 01 2013 20:57 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 20:55 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 01 2013 20:53 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:49 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 01 2013 20:46 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:44 Talack wrote:On March 01 2013 20:42 negativedge wrote:
if you dismiss these champions, then you have to dismiss the GomTvT champions. there is no way around that. give the players credit, it's not fair to dismiss them because your feelings are hurt. The TvT champions were consistently good for a very long period of time and the TvT champions almost always showed up in the top 8. This zerg meta game shit has a random zerg who didn't come top 8 the season before or ever make it to a finals and then another random zerg takes the next championship. We're tired of it, HOTS hopefully will change it or sc2 will become even more of a niche than it currently is. yes, Roro is a "random" zerg. specifically because you don't watch proleague. Symbol, who has been one of the top five zergs on the planet for nearly a full year is a "random" zerg. good to know. and I didn't know it was required for a game to be dominated by the same people in order to be worth viewing. I guess I better stop watching the NFL, which is the most popular sporting league in America. Life, Leenock, Sniper, Hyun, Symbol, Roro, DRG... Etc. Etc. Yes, those players are all "random." If you want to stretch it, you can say Sniper and Hyun "came from nowhere," but that's it. And it is far too early to make a call on either of them. I don't get the argument that TvT was somehow more valid because the top tier players were more consistently top tier. If anything, that's preference. If you watch baseball, do you think it is good that the Yankees are always good? Real Madrid in soccer? And even if you hate parity for some reason, check it out, GomTvT era consistently had over 15 Terrans in Code S. There have never been 15 Zergs in Code S. So your rule would only apply to the very very top of the pile. There are maybe ten Zerg players on the planet capable of winning a GSL. Give them credit. With the difference that during the GomTvT era there was not 15 Terrans who actually could win Code S. It would be hard to argue that there are 15 Zergs that could win Code S, considering there have never even been 15 Zergs in any given Code S season. But again: this is the most trivial way to judge balance that I've ever seen. The fact that 4 Terrans were the best 4 completely negates the fact that entire tournaments were nothing but Terran over and over again? Why does that even matter? And you know what? If Sniper won another GSL you would just hate on him more, this "the best 4 Terrans" argument is a smoke screen.
Not really, its not just the champions either, its the semis... general Zerg success has widened to a larger audience.
GomTVT was dominated by a solid few... Sure there were more Terrans in the GSL (and even now its not "overwhelmed" by Zergs) - but of those Terrans, you knew who was going to get far as they were better players.
At the moment with Zerg, the gaps are closer. Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.
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Taeja totally choked there. He was playing immaculately in games 1 and 2. OK on game 3.
Then... what was that build on Icarus? 3 command centers on the most rush-friendly map? Roro cheesed, and it was just way too easy.
Game 5, Taeja looked like crap. Wasn't controlling his units, wasn't micro'ing in battles. Ouch. I'm disappointed.
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On March 01 2013 20:58 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 20:56 Serelitz wrote:On March 01 2013 20:53 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:49 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 01 2013 20:46 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:44 Talack wrote:On March 01 2013 20:42 negativedge wrote:
if you dismiss these champions, then you have to dismiss the GomTvT champions. there is no way around that. give the players credit, it's not fair to dismiss them because your feelings are hurt. The TvT champions were consistently good for a very long period of time and the TvT champions almost always showed up in the top 8. This zerg meta game shit has a random zerg who didn't come top 8 the season before or ever make it to a finals and then another random zerg takes the next championship. We're tired of it, HOTS hopefully will change it or sc2 will become even more of a niche than it currently is. yes, Roro is a "random" zerg. specifically because you don't watch proleague. Symbol, who has been one of the top five zergs on the planet for nearly a full year is a "random" zerg. good to know. and I didn't know it was required for a game to be dominated by the same people in order to be worth viewing. I guess I better stop watching the NFL, which is the most popular sporting league in America. Life, Leenock, Sniper, Hyun, Symbol, Roro, DRG... Etc. Etc. Yes, those players are all "random." If you want to stretch it, you can say Sniper and Hyun "came from nowhere," but that's it. And it is far too early to make a call on either of them. I don't get the argument that TvT was somehow more valid because the top tier players were more consistently top tier. If anything, that's preference. If you watch baseball, do you think it is good that the Yankees are always good? Real Madrid in soccer? And even if you hate parity for some reason, check it out, GomTvT era consistently had over 15 Terrans in Code S. There have never been 15 Zergs in Code S. So your rule would only apply to the very very top of the pile. There are maybe ten Zerg players on the planet capable of winning a GSL. Give them credit. Even during the GomTvT era, nobody ever thought of players like Ensnare as championship quality. There's maybe 10 zergs in the world capable of winning a GSL, namely all the zergs currently in code S. So let me get this straight: you like it better when the vast majority of a tournament is completely inconsequential?
Not really, I suspect he likes it better when the list of players one expects to win is "Mvp, MMA, Polt, MKP, MC, San, HongUn, NesTea, July, DRG" rather than "any of the 10 zergs"
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Netherlands2895 Posts
On March 01 2013 20:57 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 20:55 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 01 2013 20:53 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:49 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 01 2013 20:46 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:44 Talack wrote:On March 01 2013 20:42 negativedge wrote:
if you dismiss these champions, then you have to dismiss the GomTvT champions. there is no way around that. give the players credit, it's not fair to dismiss them because your feelings are hurt. The TvT champions were consistently good for a very long period of time and the TvT champions almost always showed up in the top 8. This zerg meta game shit has a random zerg who didn't come top 8 the season before or ever make it to a finals and then another random zerg takes the next championship. We're tired of it, HOTS hopefully will change it or sc2 will become even more of a niche than it currently is. yes, Roro is a "random" zerg. specifically because you don't watch proleague. Symbol, who has been one of the top five zergs on the planet for nearly a full year is a "random" zerg. good to know. and I didn't know it was required for a game to be dominated by the same people in order to be worth viewing. I guess I better stop watching the NFL, which is the most popular sporting league in America. Life, Leenock, Sniper, Hyun, Symbol, Roro, DRG... Etc. Etc. Yes, those players are all "random." If you want to stretch it, you can say Sniper and Hyun "came from nowhere," but that's it. And it is far too early to make a call on either of them. I don't get the argument that TvT was somehow more valid because the top tier players were more consistently top tier. If anything, that's preference. If you watch baseball, do you think it is good that the Yankees are always good? Real Madrid in soccer? And even if you hate parity for some reason, check it out, GomTvT era consistently had over 15 Terrans in Code S. There have never been 15 Zergs in Code S. So your rule would only apply to the very very top of the pile. There are maybe ten Zerg players on the planet capable of winning a GSL. Give them credit. With the difference that during the GomTvT era there was not 15 Terrans who actually could win Code S. It would be hard to argue that there are 15 Zergs that could win Code S, considering there have never even been 15 Zergs in any given Code S season. But again: this is the most trivial way to judge balance that I've ever seen. The fact that 4 Terrans were the best 4 completely negates the fact that entire tournaments were nothing but Terran over and over again? Why does that even matter? And you know what? If Sniper won another GSL you would just hate on him more, this "the best 4 Terrans" argument is a smoke screen.
I'm going to assume you'll disregard the ridiculous amount of foreign zerg wins over koreans vs foreign terran wins over koreans?
Fact of the matter is simply that Terran had a higher skillcap when the game was decently balanced (not perfect obviously). Sure that's poor design but forcing the rates to be equal at the highest level when it's obviously much easier for 1 race leads to.. well, this.
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On March 01 2013 20:46 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 20:42 negativedge wrote:
if you dismiss these champions, then you have to dismiss the GomTvT champions. there is no way around that. The difference is the TvT champions were the same players game after game, season after season. MVP, MMA, Polt and MKP. How many different Zergs have we seen dominating for the last period? Life, Leenock, Sniper, Hyun, Symbol, Roro... Etc. Etc.
Opened this thread expecting Zerg hate etc., but this "statement" you made is actually laughable... All of the Zergs you mentioned here are amazing players, and it's silly to consider them "patchzergs" (even though you didn't explicitly say it, that's kind of the whole point of this thread it seems). The only possible exception is Sniper, and you can easily equate him to Jakji... He still played great in one GSL and at IPL5.
One thing that seriously contributes to "instability" of Zerg players' success is that ZvZ is so much more volatile than TvT. When you're likely to play a few Zergs on your way to the top, you have a decent chance to drop out, even if you're the "better player". Using that to argue that these Zerg champions are any worse players than the Terran champions of a year or two ago is pointless. So yes, Zerg has finished WoL as the strongest race by a sizable margin, but really no larger than Terran's used to be. The difference is that Terrans used to use the moronic argument that "better players are playing Terran", and I guess some people actually bought that.
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On March 01 2013 20:58 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 20:56 Serelitz wrote:On March 01 2013 20:53 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:49 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 01 2013 20:46 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:44 Talack wrote:On March 01 2013 20:42 negativedge wrote:
if you dismiss these champions, then you have to dismiss the GomTvT champions. there is no way around that. give the players credit, it's not fair to dismiss them because your feelings are hurt. The TvT champions were consistently good for a very long period of time and the TvT champions almost always showed up in the top 8. This zerg meta game shit has a random zerg who didn't come top 8 the season before or ever make it to a finals and then another random zerg takes the next championship. We're tired of it, HOTS hopefully will change it or sc2 will become even more of a niche than it currently is. yes, Roro is a "random" zerg. specifically because you don't watch proleague. Symbol, who has been one of the top five zergs on the planet for nearly a full year is a "random" zerg. good to know. and I didn't know it was required for a game to be dominated by the same people in order to be worth viewing. I guess I better stop watching the NFL, which is the most popular sporting league in America. Life, Leenock, Sniper, Hyun, Symbol, Roro, DRG... Etc. Etc. Yes, those players are all "random." If you want to stretch it, you can say Sniper and Hyun "came from nowhere," but that's it. And it is far too early to make a call on either of them. I don't get the argument that TvT was somehow more valid because the top tier players were more consistently top tier. If anything, that's preference. If you watch baseball, do you think it is good that the Yankees are always good? Real Madrid in soccer? And even if you hate parity for some reason, check it out, GomTvT era consistently had over 15 Terrans in Code S. There have never been 15 Zergs in Code S. So your rule would only apply to the very very top of the pile. There are maybe ten Zerg players on the planet capable of winning a GSL. Give them credit. Even during the GomTvT era, nobody ever thought of players like Ensnare as championship quality. There's maybe 10 zergs in the world capable of winning a GSL, namely all the zergs currently in code S. So let me get this straight: you like it better when the vast majority of a tournament is completely inconsequential?
Let me be straight with you.
People dont have problems with Zergs winning.
People have problems with that ANY Zerg making it into Code S is a potenial candidate to win.
If One, Two or Three Zergs had shown amazing play and dominated code S for season after season after season this discussion would not excist.
You, however, seem to be blind for the fact that it seems like any top-level Z is a candidate to win Code S which is what is boring.
Had Life played DRG in the third GSL-final in row I had gladly watched and claimed them to be the two best players in the world. During the last 3 finals we have had... 5 diffrent Zerg players in the finals? It just feels random at the moment and that is what makes it sad to watch. Not especially that it is ZvZ, but that there is always new ZvZ without any signs of domination.
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Norway10161 Posts
On March 01 2013 20:58 Ghanburighan wrote:Looking at the amount of balance whining here (or design whining, as it's now called), I don't think it's worth catching the vods of this series Go go Symbol, beat charity zerg. And welcome HoTS. May the reapers mine a hell'uva lot of zerg tears.
Actually most games were good in their own way:
Game 1 is great macro play with a nice end.
Game 2 is also pretty cool, nice zoning.
Game 3 is just weird
Game 4 is another in a long list of annoying terran decisions on icarus
Game 5 is kind of meh. Taeja looked a bit tired. Nice demonstration is zerg macro play.
They both looked good today, I'd say Taeja looked better in game 1 and 2, while roro looked better in game 5.
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[Sure you have your "big 4" with Symbol, DRG, Life and Leenock - but otherwise there are plenty of other Zergs who could potentially make it through to semis that noone would have thought.
That's a good thing. It means the game is more competitive. It means there are more skilled players around. You knew who the best Terrans were in the middle of 2011 because people like Ensare, Bitbybit, et. al were still around. The top players were much better because the other players weren't any good. Now everyone in Code S is a gosu. How terrible!
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On March 01 2013 21:03 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 20:58 Ghanburighan wrote:Looking at the amount of balance whining here (or design whining, as it's now called), I don't think it's worth catching the vods of this series Go go Symbol, beat charity zerg. And welcome HoTS. May the reapers mine a hell'uva lot of zerg tears. Actually most games were good in their own way: Game 1 is great macro play with a nice end. Game 2 is also pretty cool, nice zoning. Game 3 is just weird Game 4 is another in a long list of annoying terran decisions on icarus Game 5 is kind of meh. Taeja looked a bit tired. Nice demonstration is zerg macro play. They both looked good today, I'd say Taeja looked better in game 1 and 2, while roro looked better in game 5.
Thanks ^^ I'll see if I can catch 1 and 2 then.
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On March 01 2013 21:03 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 20:58 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:56 Serelitz wrote:On March 01 2013 20:53 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:49 Glorfindel! wrote:On March 01 2013 20:46 negativedge wrote:On March 01 2013 20:44 Talack wrote:On March 01 2013 20:42 negativedge wrote:
if you dismiss these champions, then you have to dismiss the GomTvT champions. there is no way around that. give the players credit, it's not fair to dismiss them because your feelings are hurt. The TvT champions were consistently good for a very long period of time and the TvT champions almost always showed up in the top 8. This zerg meta game shit has a random zerg who didn't come top 8 the season before or ever make it to a finals and then another random zerg takes the next championship. We're tired of it, HOTS hopefully will change it or sc2 will become even more of a niche than it currently is. yes, Roro is a "random" zerg. specifically because you don't watch proleague. Symbol, who has been one of the top five zergs on the planet for nearly a full year is a "random" zerg. good to know. and I didn't know it was required for a game to be dominated by the same people in order to be worth viewing. I guess I better stop watching the NFL, which is the most popular sporting league in America. Life, Leenock, Sniper, Hyun, Symbol, Roro, DRG... Etc. Etc. Yes, those players are all "random." If you want to stretch it, you can say Sniper and Hyun "came from nowhere," but that's it. And it is far too early to make a call on either of them. I don't get the argument that TvT was somehow more valid because the top tier players were more consistently top tier. If anything, that's preference. If you watch baseball, do you think it is good that the Yankees are always good? Real Madrid in soccer? And even if you hate parity for some reason, check it out, GomTvT era consistently had over 15 Terrans in Code S. There have never been 15 Zergs in Code S. So your rule would only apply to the very very top of the pile. There are maybe ten Zerg players on the planet capable of winning a GSL. Give them credit. Even during the GomTvT era, nobody ever thought of players like Ensnare as championship quality. There's maybe 10 zergs in the world capable of winning a GSL, namely all the zergs currently in code S. So let me get this straight: you like it better when the vast majority of a tournament is completely inconsequential? Let me be straight with you. People dont have problems with Zergs winning. People have problems with that ANY Zerg making it into Code S is a potenial candidate to win. If One, Two or Three Zergs had shown amazing play and dominated code S for season after season after season this discussion would not excist. You, however, seem to be blind for the fact that it seems like any top-level Z is a candidate to win Code S which is what is boring. Had Life played DRG in the third GSL-final in row I had gladly watched and claimed them to be the two best players in the world. During the last 3 finals we have had... 5 diffrent Zerg players in the finals? It just feels random at the moment and that is what makes it sad to watch. Not especially that it is ZvZ, but that there is always new ZvZ without any signs of domination.
Yep absolutely nailed it.
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Let me be straight with you.
People dont have problems with Zergs winning.
People have problems with that ANY Zerg making it into Code S is a potenial candidate to win.
If One, Two or Three Zergs had shown amazing play and dominated code S for season after season after season this discussion would not excist.
You, however, seem to be blind for the fact that it seems like any top-level Z is a candidate to win Code S which is what is boring.
Had Life played DRG in the third GSL-final in row I had gladly watched and claimed them to be the two best players in the world. During the last 3 finals we have had... 5 diffrent Zerg players in the finals? It just feels random at the moment and that is what makes it sad to watch. Not especially that it is ZvZ, but that there is always new ZvZ without any signs of domination.
So exactly what I said, then.
And just in case you didn't notice, there are dominant Zerg players. Life, DRG, Leenock, and Symbol have been dominant players. Other players are good enough to beat those guys, whereas other players in GomTvT were not good enough to beat MVP et. al. So you are complaining that players are better now than they were in 2011. That's a terrible argument.
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On March 01 2013 21:07 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +Let me be straight with you.
People dont have problems with Zergs winning.
People have problems with that ANY Zerg making it into Code S is a potenial candidate to win.
If One, Two or Three Zergs had shown amazing play and dominated code S for season after season after season this discussion would not excist.
You, however, seem to be blind for the fact that it seems like any top-level Z is a candidate to win Code S which is what is boring.
Had Life played DRG in the third GSL-final in row I had gladly watched and claimed them to be the two best players in the world. During the last 3 finals we have had... 5 diffrent Zerg players in the finals? It just feels random at the moment and that is what makes it sad to watch. Not especially that it is ZvZ, but that there is always new ZvZ without any signs of domination. So exactly what I said, then. And just in case you didn't notice, there are dominant Zerg players. Life, DRG, Leenock, and Symbol have been dominant players. Other players are good enough to beat those guys, whereas other players in GomTvT were not good enough to beat MVP et. al. So you are complaining that players are better now than they were in 2011. That's a terrible argument.
At least we've realised how you're missing the point. You're assuming the variety is due to a "larger pool of skilled players" yet all the variety falls on one race?
As mentioned earlier - the Terran skill cap was very high, and as such, a minority could compete at that level. thats not the same case here.
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EPT
