Complain to Blizzard because their game design is revolved around people playing many short games. Remember Steppes of War right? Metalopolis was the first "big" map.... though it's actually so small. The high DPS of units, the skills that impede retreat, and so on. With this in mind, Blizzard can't allow comebacks, or give the defender an advantage, decrease the DPS of units, or else, games would get longer (and also more interesting imo), and that would be bad! The battle has to end right there and now, so the game can end. The player losing the battle has almost no time to react. And the remaining units under fire of a lot of DPS can't even escape, (fungal, forcefield, concussive, hellions, abduct) so that you really have no chance of coming back. They want you to have huge numbers on your statistics. A lot of games played, a lot of wins, etc, even if many of those suck as hell.
On the "Artosis Curse", Luck and Liquibet in SC2. - Page 16
Forum Index > SC2 General |
Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
Complain to Blizzard because their game design is revolved around people playing many short games. Remember Steppes of War right? Metalopolis was the first "big" map.... though it's actually so small. The high DPS of units, the skills that impede retreat, and so on. With this in mind, Blizzard can't allow comebacks, or give the defender an advantage, decrease the DPS of units, or else, games would get longer (and also more interesting imo), and that would be bad! The battle has to end right there and now, so the game can end. The player losing the battle has almost no time to react. And the remaining units under fire of a lot of DPS can't even escape, (fungal, forcefield, concussive, hellions, abduct) so that you really have no chance of coming back. They want you to have huge numbers on your statistics. A lot of games played, a lot of wins, etc, even if many of those suck as hell. | ||
Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Changes to the map size have been beneficial, if any of you remember steppes of war. Most patches have been beneficial to game balance. So go play the game and root on your favorites without getting bogged down in philosophically where the balance should lie between the interplay of luck and skill, dice and chess. | ||
magicallypuzzled
United States588 Posts
In starcraft if you put the work in you can become as great as you ever want to be/play who ever you want to play all that's need is for you to literally eat breath sleep starcraft. in any sport you care to name no matter how many peple eat/breath/ sleep (insert sport name here) there is still an absolute limit on the number of players that are needed/wanted in the sport. if a thousand people said hey I have he skill and want to be the best basketball player and I am going to do nothing but basketball 24/7 for how ever many years it takes to reach that goal 900 of them atleast are going to be completely out of luck no matter how good they actually get. there just isn't and won't be the teams/management/what ever to support them nor is there any desire to have such. not so with starcraft there is no actual limit to the number of teams/players theres no ok we are drafting these many people for the nba and no more. if they get the skill there is nothing but perhaps common sense that says there can't be millions of pro players. | ||
Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
Could you imagine Federer playing the Wimbledon final as a best of 5 games,two bad games and he is basically out? The 5 set system lets the players adjust to each other tactics and skill thus eventually the best player on the day will win, hence the stability at the top tier 60% win rate is exceptional for SC players, in order to get better best of 7 games would have to be standard at the very least imho | ||
Aerisky
United States12128 Posts
And yeah, people have raised the tennis comparison, but honestly you can only compare specific (and extremely limited) aspects. Extrapolating from the analogy with tennis won't get you anywhere; it's different in many, many ways. | ||
Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
On February 23 2013 17:16 magicallypuzzled wrote: no the problem isn't what ever random bull crap most of you are spouting. the problem/cause of the randomness compared to most quote sports unquote is the number of people who have the opportunity to play against the pros in starcraft is hugely disproportionate to the number of people who can play the pro's in any other actual sport. In starcraft if you put the work in you can become as great as you ever want to be/play who ever you want to play all that's need is for you to literally eat breath sleep starcraft. in any sport you care to name no matter how many peple eat/breath/ sleep (insert sport name here) there is still an absolute limit on the number of players that are needed/wanted in the sport. if a thousand people said hey I want to be the best basketball player and I am going to do nothing but basketball 24/7 for how ever many years it takes to reach that goal 900 of them atleast are going to be completely out of luck no matter how good they actually get. there just isn't and won't be the teams/management/what ever to support them nor is there any desire to have such. not so with starcraft there is no actual limit to the number of teams/players theres no ok we are drafting these many people for the nba and no more. if they get the skill there is nothing but perhaps common sense that says there can't be millions of pro players. You can't really compare a sport that has been around for 90+ years ?? (give or take) to something very new though. This simply is not fair. I don't know why people keep doing this, sports like Basketball managed to get such an structure over the years that you simply can not compare it to any new sport be it "real" or an E-sport. | ||
magicallypuzzled
United States588 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On February 23 2013 05:03 TheRabidDeer wrote: Yes, this is true. This is also why we are currently at a point where we are close to the probably 2009 area of BW in terms of game knowledge (in WoL). However, a year ago even we were much much lower in skill. Also, this rapid rapid change that we have undergone is another reason things seem so volatile. In BW, players saw a year of dominance. It took a lot of time for people to figure out what to do, then get it known throughout all of the players to be able to consistently beat them. Just look at the stats posted about boxer/iloveoov/Nada. They had stellar YEARS then fell off a bit as people learned how to play against them. Now compare that to SC2, people had stellar SEASONS then started to fall off. To go 4-5 months with a 70% win rate is the equivalent of a dominant year in BW just because of how quickly information and strategy travels. Once the game is truly figured out, only then will we see a Flash in SC2. Flash was so dominant because he knew everything about the game, had great play and mechanics and everything. You cant have a dominant force when things are still changing so quickly. NO actually once the game gets fully figured out (I would argue that it already is) we will have a lot of people being " the best " because they won't be able to differantiate themselves from others and while I agree mostly on what you've said the mechanical restrictions were also a reason for it being figured out so late in it's life span. The mechanical restrictions was THE one and only reason for BWs strategies being more complex and taking longer for them to be figured out | ||
Fearest
854 Posts
I really want to see a TERRAN/ZERG/PROTOSS ONLY TOURNAMENT. That is more like other sports, both are given the same premises | ||
thezanursic
5478 Posts
On February 23 2013 17:16 magicallypuzzled wrote: no the problem isn't what ever random bull crap most of you are spouting. the problem/cause of the randomness compared to most quote sports unquote is the number of people who have the opportunity to play against the pros in starcraft is hugely disproportionate to the number of people who can play the pro's in any other actual sport. In starcraft if you put the work in you can become as great as you ever want to be/play who ever you want to play all that's need is for you to literally eat breath sleep starcraft. in any sport you care to name no matter how many peple eat/breath/ sleep (insert sport name here) there is still an absolute limit on the number of players that are needed/wanted in the sport. if a thousand people said hey I have he skill and want to be the best basketball player and I am going to do nothing but basketball 24/7 for how ever many years it takes to reach that goal 900 of them atleast are going to be completely out of luck no matter how good they actually get. there just isn't and won't be the teams/management/what ever to support them nor is there any desire to have such. not so with starcraft there is no actual limit to the number of teams/players theres no ok we are drafting these many people for the nba and no more. if they get the skill there is nothing but perhaps common sense that says there can't be millions of pro players. That's a bunch of BS while it might be true to small extent it just doesn't work that way. Have you never watched any olympic sport? If you did you would know what kinds of differences there are. In skiing for instance (I used to compete when I was younger although I didn't achieve anything I am still pretty good at it and understand the sport) in woman's league a competitor from my country Tina Maze has been totally dominating this season with 8 wins this season over several disciplines, she was also 2nd and 3rd several times and if you look at the sport itself you will NEVER see a no-name take a championship the difference between the winner and the 30th is often above 3 secs which is fucking a lot if you've ever competed like I have. The dame goes for chess a top grandmaster in FIDE rating usually doesn't lose to a lower tier GM (and both of them are among the best) you could put a Grandmaster against as many national champions that aren't as established and he just wouldn't lose (if he played to the best of his abilities that is). I am not very into sports I follow a couple of winter sports since they are close to heart, but I can tell you that everyone who has ever followed or better yet competed at a sport can tell you that what you've spouted is utter bullshit. There are sports of course that are more luck based and teamsports are also a little bit more unpredictable because of the larger number of competitors | ||
thezanursic
5478 Posts
On February 23 2013 17:35 Aerisky wrote: Whoa, I'm going to stay out of what probably has been an extremely heated back-and-forth (16 pages' worth in a matter of days!! D: ) but I definitely also have to say that I've kind of noticed the same thing. It's really quite odd how the top players really can't dominate that hard, and we instead have a multitude of players considered super top-tier and yet....they're not particularly consistent either by most other standards. And yeah, people have raised the tennis comparison, but honestly you can only compare specific (and extremely limited) aspects. Extrapolating from the analogy with tennis won't get you anywhere; it's different in many, many ways. The thing is that the way that SC2 is designed doesn't give you enough ways to express your skill (yes one player is better than the other, but witha little luck thrown in the better player will lose because he can't over come that luck) The former is proven by the fact that team houses are much more relaxed now than in BW players still play a lot, but significantly less because they know that the jump from 8 hours a day to 12-14 hours will give you a 1% winrate instead of anything from 1 to 25% giving you a 75% winrate as several players had for half a year or so, but that is obviously really hard to maintain. iF for instance in BW everybody would be on a 8 hour schedule except for 1 talented player who would be practising 14 hours a day his winrate would surpass FlasH's by far (of course that didnydt happen since everybody practised as much and it came down to the player and how he practised during that time) A good example of above would be grrr although he was very intelligent which kind of gave him the edge in the beginning lesser players just overcame him by deciding to practise a lot more than him. | ||
Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On February 23 2013 17:16 magicallypuzzled wrote: no the problem isn't what ever random bull crap most of you are spouting. The problem/cause of the randomness compared to most quote sports unquote is the number of people who have the opportunity to play against the pros in starcraft is hugely disproportionate to the number of people who can play the pro's in any other actual sport. In starcraft if you put the work in you can become as great as you ever want to be/play who ever you want to play all that's need is for you to literally eat breath sleep starcraft. in any sport you care to name no matter how many peple eat/breath/ sleep (insert sport name here) there is still an absolute limit on the number of players that are needed/wanted in the sport. if a thousand people said hey I have he skill and want to be the best basketball player and I am going to do nothing but basketball 24/7 for how ever many years it takes to reach that goal 900 of them atleast are going to be completely out of luck no matter how good they actually get. there just isn't and won't be the teams/management/what ever to support them nor is there any desire to have such. not so with starcraft there is no actual limit to the number of teams/players theres no ok we are drafting these many people for the nba and no more. if they get the skill there is nothing but perhaps common sense that says there can't be millions of pro players. Let's disconstruct this bullshit so everyone sees that there are a lot of people like this guy, just throwing things out and creating a baseless discussion. Learn to fundament your opinions or simply don't voice them. This guy for instance, created a stupid discussion because he didn't gave reasons for his arguments and now people are arguing like confused angry babuins beating around the bush. [Starts by ridiculling other peoples' opinions, then proceeds] Other sports [that is, other than SC2] have a different mechanism which limits the number of players needed at any time. [care to explain?] (1) ∴ In other sports there is a limit of pro players that can exist at any time. (from 1) (2) If you put in the effort, you can become good (Pro) at what you do. (3) The number of players being needed at any time is reflected in a team accepting or not applicants. (assumed) (4) ∴ Even if you are a pro player, you have a chance of not getting accepted into any team. (from 1-4)(5) Not getting accepted into a team means you fail at the sport. [why? does it happen to all sports?] (6) ∴ Even if you are a pro player, you have a chance of failing at the sport. [what chance is that? where did you get that from? how do you know those sports have reached or surpassed the limit you talked about?] (from1-6) (7) There are many more people that can play aggainst pros in SC2 than any other sport. [how do you know that? what do you mean by "can play"? if i'm in diamond it's very unlikely i'll ever play aggainst a pro for instance. Of course if i improve, the likelyhood increases. But doesn't that happen as well in other sports?] (8) In SC2 there is no limit of pro players that can exist at any time. [why not?] (9) If you put in the effort, you can become good (Pro) at what you do. (10) ∴ If you put in the effort, you can become a ProSC2 player. (from 9,10) (11) [does this really follow? why don't you mention teams? how does success in SC2 depend on being a team? how do you know you'll get accepted into a team? how do you know there isn't a limit for players a team can accept? how do you know there isn't a limit for teams that can exist in SC2? You just assume the answers are the ones that best support your view, and don't explain why.] There. I know thinking is a lot of work, but at least try to do it before you post. | ||
thezanursic
5478 Posts
On February 23 2013 15:31 Cuce wrote: its not abour skill ceeling, or luck. simply game is too hard. its impossible to perform perfectly everygame. best players are best players when they play their best, on his avarage day best players is no better than a less good players prime. OHh I see now everything makes sense BW is a lot easier FlasH was playing perfectly and the rest of the koreans who also played 14 hours a day were just to stupid to play an easy game perfectly! /close thread | ||
kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
On February 23 2013 19:04 thezanursic wrote: OHh I see now everything makes sense BW is a lot easier FlasH was playing perfectly and the rest of the koreans who also played 14 hours a day were just to stupid to play an easy game perfectly! /close thread SC2 foreigners like EG.Stephano are such horrible players that they can't get into Code S or even Code A even though the game is so easy and does not require much training. They kept getting dominated even in foreign events because they are just so terrible. You have an entire world vs one country and yet you can't produce players that beat Koreans in an easy, luck-based game. | ||
roym899
Germany426 Posts
On February 23 2013 15:31 Cuce wrote: its not abour skill ceeling, or luck. simply game is too hard. its impossible to perform perfectly everygame. best players are best players when they play their best, on his avarage day best players is no better than a less good players prime. What? That doesn't make sense at all. | ||
Godwrath
Spain10091 Posts
On February 23 2013 17:16 magicallypuzzled wrote: no the problem isn't what ever random bull crap most of you are spouting. the problem/cause of the randomness compared to most quote sports unquote is the number of people who have the opportunity to play against the pros in starcraft is hugely disproportionate to the number of people who can play the pro's in any other actual sport. In starcraft if you put the work in you can become as great as you ever want to be/play who ever you want to play all that's need is for you to literally eat breath sleep starcraft. in any sport you care to name no matter how many peple eat/breath/ sleep (insert sport name here) there is still an absolute limit on the number of players that are needed/wanted in the sport. if a thousand people said hey I have he skill and want to be the best basketball player and I am going to do nothing but basketball 24/7 for how ever many years it takes to reach that goal 900 of them atleast are going to be completely out of luck no matter how good they actually get. there just isn't and won't be the teams/management/what ever to support them nor is there any desire to have such. not so with starcraft there is no actual limit to the number of teams/players theres no ok we are drafting these many people for the nba and no more. if they get the skill there is nothing but perhaps common sense that says there can't be millions of pro players. Why people compare it to sports that had been around for decades even a century ? 20 years ago, most football players in Spain except the very top notch had two proffessions because they couldn't really make a living out of football. | ||
Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
On February 23 2013 19:08 kheldorin wrote: SC2 foreigners like EG.Stephano are such horrible players that they can't get into Code S or even Code A even though the game is so easy and does not require much training. They kept getting dominated even in foreign events because they are just so terrible. You have an entire world vs one country and yet you can't produce players that beat Koreans in an easy, luck-based game. Yes but how long will Korean dominance last once LOL and DOTA2 start to become really popular with large prize pools to fight for, perhaps in 3 years time the SC2 may be on a decline by then( GOMTV are already experimenting with LOL arnt they?). Who knows !!! | ||
Ghostcom
Denmark4776 Posts
On February 23 2013 19:08 kheldorin wrote: SC2 foreigners like EG.Stephano are such horrible players that they can't get into Code S or even Code A even though the game is so easy and does not require much training. They kept getting dominated even in foreign events because they are just so terrible. You have an entire world vs one country and yet you can't produce players that beat Koreans in an easy, luck-based game. Denmark, with a population of 5.5 million, is the only country outside of Asia who can compete in Badminton. We are so good at it that we have a player in top10 in all categories, most categories we are top 5 and in mens doubles were are nr 1. Sometimes it doesn't matter if you are outnumbered by billions - what matters is your foundation, tradition and methods. No one is saying that there is NO possibility to showcase skill in SC2. It is quite obvious that there are tiers of players which a completely random game would not. People are saying that these tiers are not distinct enough and that luck therefore still plays too big of a factor. | ||
AKnopf
Germany259 Posts
Starcraft players are often very young. Imagine Federer in a big final game being 16. I bet he would be more nervous then now, in the age of 32. Same goes for consistency. I guess a younger player is more likely to become cocky and train not as hard when he reaches the top then an older player. The factor of the players being very young may not be the biggest in regards of predictability, but im sure it has its part. | ||
Timmsh
Netherlands201 Posts
In SC2 there are certain points in time where choices need to be made to let the game go in your favor. Even when you have limited knowledge (scouting information for instance) you still need to make those choices. Other factors have also been mentioned, such as high dps, no retreat possibilities because of Fungal etc etc. But these are the abilities that punish the lack of information in the game, the problem is still the lack of information. So you can formulate solutions whatever you like, the problem remains and theres always a (high) possibility for a lower player to win. | ||
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