EPT:D
Power Rank 03/03/2007 - Page 7
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KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
On March 06 2007 08:46 Mynock wrote: Oh one more thing. I completely disagree with putting down Midas for choosing sAviOr twice, either. No, he's NOT dumb, he sure is a lot smarter that you think in fact. Midas's choice is explained easily. First of all, he's confident. He had to use that to his advantage. Had he disabled sAviOr right then and there I'd have given him all the chances to win the league. Midas has some of the best chances to take sAviOr out, and he wanted to do that as quickly as possible. Ad second, NO, he did NOT have no obligation to the fans to fight sAviOr in a BO5. He has however an obligation to his fans and his team to win games. Which he tried his best at, choosing the route most suitable for his goals. Eliminating SaviOr early was his best shot at winning the league. And he's a guy who's not in a position where he'd be satisfied with crumbles. He wants the title, and you have to take that into consideration when deciding his strategy for him the next time. He plays for himself and not for you. -Mynock i never claimed the "owe the fans" argument. it was just stupid for many other reasons. i already explained why it was stupid for midas to pick savior. i do not see ANY positives in midas' choice other than that it's a Bo3 in the Ro16 instead of a Bo5, but even that might not be a positive given that they are pro terran maps, so the Bo5 means Longinus, RLT, and HH will ALL be included, instead of one possibly being excluded (as is what happened). Negatives to midas' choice: 1. Zergman, July, Hwasin, Casy, (and now IriS) have all shown capability to beat Savior, especially in a fluke Bo3. I don't see how "being confident" or "disabling savior right then" matters in this case. if someone else eliminates him, he's still eliminated. Midas has an OK chance to not even have to play Savior at all, which would've made it much easier for him to win the whole thing. it's misplaced pride and overestimation of himself that caused him to pick savior, it was by no means a "smart" decision. if you want to justify arguments with results, here they are: it was dumb because he took a huge risk and fucking lost. had he won maybe you can argue that it was a smart choice, but since he lost i cant believe we're still talking about this. did you watch midas, all smiley and joking at the group stage? he has to back up what he puts out there with wins, not fake confidence. 2. Builds. Savior will have had to play a ton of ZvTs, and the more builds on these maps midas sees the less likely he will be fooled like he was in Game 3 of their Bo3. Hwasin's win vs the savior's guardian build on Blitz in the MSL semis benefited hugely from watching the Midas loss on HH in the Ro16. Midas could've done the same, watching Savior and analyzing his style even more on the same maps. Why would he go into it cold, against the most strategic player in the OSL? How could he not think savior had special builds prepared? 3. Motivation. Savior's play, as evidenced by the recent MSL, is heavily influenced by how motivated he is. Its the sense of complacency at the top, and by picking Savior in groups, then beating him, then picking him again in brackets, Midas was straight up disrespecting him (savior, iirc, actually asked midas not to pick him). You remember the OGN Sparkz incident right? Savior is one vindictive motherfucker, and the champion in him would simply not allow a loss to midas. it meant too much to him after the insult. when put in that situation savior just wins. it's proven again and again. why would you give the most vengeful, scary, killer-instinct guy extra motivation to beat you? thats just like talking about michael jordan's mother or insulting federer's girlfriend. its not done because you get punished for it. 4. Seed and confidence. Midas should be playing for a seed and playing for confidence. he should not be saying to himself "omg finals winnar or nothing." his career is on the upswing and he chokes because he does not have enough big-game experience. winning a bunch of matches against lower level guys would do wonders to build that, and a seed into the next OSL would be absolutely huge. now what happened? midas might not make the next one and his confidence is shot. his career seriously could turn right around. as for your nada post, we are arguing about 1 or 2 spots, i believe it should've been savior-bisu-iris-nada, you think savior-bisu-nada-iris, its not a huge difference. i think i see the merits in your argument for nada and you clearly see (and disagree with) the points on why iris should be one spot lower and nada one spot higher. | ||
mrmin123
Korea (South)2971 Posts
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KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
On March 06 2007 14:16 mrmin123 wrote: These Power Ranking threads end up with the longest posts ever. omg you're right. I'm such a dick, I can't be bothered to read anymore than 3 lines -_-. | ||
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Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
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Daveed
United States236 Posts
On March 06 2007 10:00 KizZBG wrote: But Midas hair is better than Nada's. :D No one's hair is better than NaDa's | ||
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SiZ.FaNtAsY
Korea (South)1497 Posts
Well except for the fact that intotherainbow should be #10 for no reason. Great list! Wait!!!! What happened to your anti-nal_ra anti iris COMMENTS!??!!?!! I miss them... I will do them for you! Nal_Ra - finally you lose please die Iris - Whatever craterface | ||
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rS.NonY
United States286 Posts
On March 06 2007 20:00 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: What happened to your anti-nal_ra anti iris COMMENTS!??!!?!! I miss them... I will do them for you! Nal_Ra - finally you lose please die Iris - Whatever craterface Shhh!! Etter is maturing... just let it happen  | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
On March 06 2007 12:38 Hot_Bid wrote:midas might not make the next one and his confidence is shot. his career seriously could turn right around. I think that's a bit of a stretch. SKT1 does look shakey but Midas is Midas -_-;; | ||
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KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
Blasphemy! | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
 I dunno why you take it so close to heart but anyway, I disagree with pretty much everything you said there, however I guess we're both entitled to our opinion. Well I agree on one thing there tho: In hindsight we know that Midas lost, and results should count. That's why Midas in my eyes is nowhere near NaDa, let alone in front of him. But again, hindsight is 20/20, I said Midas's choice was good back then, and I'm sticking to it now, I won't change my opinion regardless of the outcome. And I explained my opinion I think, I don't want to explain it again. You're telling Midas to go for seeds? If I was in his place I'd feel insulted to the core. Oh and btw, are you calling sAviOr THE most strategic player in the OSL? -_- You have got to be kidding there. PS.: NaDa's hairstyle is second to no one. -Mynock | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
i never argued about nada vs midas, i even agreed with you that nada should be in front of midas. i argued for iris being above nada, and look at Iris recent play, i believe he's above nada in power ranking, if not pure results. hindsight is 20/20 but saying something like "i wont change my opinion regardless of outcome" is ridiculous. there's absolutely no way what midas did can be interpreted as a "smart" decision especially now that we know he has lost. think of it this way, if 2 basketball players on different teams, Player A and Player B, with 2 seconds left on the clock both demand the ball in a game winning shot situation... Player A has a history of missing in close situations like these and never won a title. Player B has a history of coming through no matter the odds in these situations, and has won many titles. It's a smart decision for the coach to give Player B the shot 100% of the time. The coach will never be criticized ever, regardless of whether Player B misses or not. But the coach giving the shot to Player A is entirely results dependent. In the sports media and to the fans, they don't care whether something was a "borderline ok" decision at the time. If coach gives Player A the shot despite all the shaky history, the coach will look like a genius or idiot given what happens. All is decided on whether Player A can make it. It's hindsight, but that sort of second-guessing is natural to ALL THINGS, from sports to Iraq. It's the same rhetoric, "oh we believe it was a good decision at the time and we won't change our opinions despite any result" even though lots of evidence clearly hinting that it probably is a dumb decision. There's some sort of admiration for people being brave and demanding the shot, but there's a clear line between bravery and stupidity. It's obvious Player A is midas and Player B is savior, and that's why midas picking the best player in the field is 180 degrees different than savior doing it. That alone, coupled with my point about the maps and studying saviors build and midas gaining confidence, added to the actual LOSS BY MIDAS, should be enough to show that it was a fucking idiotic decision by him at the selection. (not to mention all the extra motivation it gives savior). i just get angry and have no respect for people who are all talk, wanna-be champions and crumble under pressure. midas is that. savior is not. that is why i feel so strongly about this issue and why i feel the need to respond to people who say "lol midas took his shot, he should be admired for being brave!" when if you broke it down it really is very clear how badly midas miscalculated. as ive said all along, midas actually winning in the Ro16 after the savior is the only way he would redeem himself for this dumb decision, and the odds on that were quite poor. it just boggles my mind that people would be stubborn enough to still think that it was "smart" for midas to pick savior. edit: also, nobody has ever articulated a good reason for midas choosing savior. not one. there's no tangible reason or positive for midas choosing him other than its a bo3 instead of a bo5, which still is dubious given that bo5 means more games on imba maps. the whole "well midas would have to take him on anyway" or "midas would have a good shot to win osl if he won" is pointless, the first statement is not true at all and midas would still have a good shot on the other side of the bracket, except with more time to analyze style, builds, and less motivation / more tiredness for double league practice savior. | ||
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~chut~
France1317 Posts
And all pro haircuts badly suck. Maybe it's fashionable, but it's so incredibly ugly, Nada was much better looking before imo. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
On March 07 2007 03:38 SuperJongMan wrote: I think that's a bit of a stretch. SKT1 does look shakey but Midas is Midas -_-;; midas is 1-4 since choosing savior kekekeke of course its vs savior and iris so it doesn't really matter but slump begins now!!!! (at least im hoping it will) | ||
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Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On March 06 2007 08:39 Mynock wrote: [ If anybody tries making a point out of "Iris destroying Casy" we have to stop right there. Are you honestly implying that Casy was fighting equally strongly for the #3 spot as for his entry into the Finals? Surely not. How the fuck you can know it ? Maybe you don't know but pros are usually playing for the honor because their monthly salaries (big dogs) are higher then price for the first place. The price is nothing compared to possible salary and income from commercials when they're winning players. When you're winning player you generate interest and interest generates money.A lot of money. | ||
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On March 07 2007 05:19 Mynock wrote: Oh and btw, are you calling sAviOr THE most strategic player in the OSL? -_- You have got to be kidding there. -Mynock Hot_Bid is right and if you're not able to see it then you have no qualification on commenting anything regarding strategy. Seriously. Nada got outplayed. Learn to live with it. | ||
jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
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TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
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Beamo
France1279 Posts
On March 07 2007 05:36 Hot_Bid wrote: <hr>edit: also, nobody has ever articulated a good reason for midas choosing savior. not one. there's no tangible reason or positive for midas choosing him other than its a bo3 instead of a bo5, which still is dubious given that bo5 means more games on imba maps. I'll give you reasons why it was not a stupid choice First of all momentum. Think of the momentum he would of had taking Savior out of the OSL. How do you think a player like Zergman would have felt playing Midas right after he got rid of Savior ? In terms of mechanics all the top players are pretty close. The psychology can be a strong deciding factor. Midas had a psycological advantage having beaten Savior in group stage. Psycological advantage that would have been diminished if Savior had time to beat other strong Terrans on the same maps on the way to their confrontation. You say Midas should have waited to analyse Savior's play on these maps but that would of also given Savior time to analyse Midas' play and find solutions on these maps. Take a map like 815, it started off as a horrible PvT map but as time went (before modifications were made on the map) Protoss players started to find solutions and even if the map kept a T > P record, the gap decreased. When the maps are at your advantage it is not always wise to give the opponent too much time to think it through. Look at Longinus, it still stays a Terran map, but Savior now knows how to exploit the early 4 gases and win on it. In both semis and in final this map became one of his strong map. Last point we all know Midas chokes. But he doesn't choke against strong players he chokes, the closer he gets to the final. Taking out the strongest players while he plays his best will be an asset for the rest of the tourney. Sum up : Momentum/Confidence he would have had winning the game (enough to compensate his choking ability ?) Striking before Savior builds back his confidence on these maps Striking before Savior finds solutions on these maps Striking while he plays his best Starcraft I'm not saying your points aren't valid and I clearly agree it was a bad decision since he lost but I don't think it was a stupid one. He would of had a lot to win of it had worked out. Yes it was a gamble but he probably thought a gamble was one of the best way to overcome his choking pattern. At this level of play gambles are necessary. This is why we see so many do or die builds, so many proxy tries, why we see Nal_ra stupidly lose to mutas because he thought his opponent was going lurks and decided not to invest in canons. Progamers will do anything to get an edge. And when it fails everyone clearly sees it was a bad decision but that doesn't mean it was a stupid one from the start | ||
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