EPTI'm not quite sure about Midas/Nada, they're pretty evenly matched now, Midas being more smarter and Nada having superior mechanics, but both choking/losing control up on big moments -_-. Perhaps when they do vs each other, it should be interesting. :D
Power Rank 03/03/2007 - Page 6
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
I'm not quite sure about Midas/Nada, they're pretty evenly matched now, Midas being more smarter and Nada having superior mechanics, but both choking/losing control up on big moments -_-. Perhaps when they do vs each other, it should be interesting. :D | ||
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The Storyteller
Singapore2486 Posts
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rS.NonY
United States286 Posts
On March 05 2007 17:54 QuietIdiot wrote: The only thing I disagree with you was from last power rank where you said Bisu's PvP was weak..WTF? Well, Etter justifies it now by saying that the Bisu vs rA match wasn't overly convincing -- 2 of the games were determined by build and only one was outplaying. However I think it more accurate to say that rA was outplayed all 3 games or, at least, that rA was counting on Bisu not being able to do a few of the things he did (or not even expecting Bisu to do such things). Bisu prepared and played better than rA in the series. When he wasn't doing one, it was the other. And none of it was "build order luck" so to speak. Bisu simply showed twice that given an opportunity to prepare for a Bo5 against a big name opponents with a scary vsP record, he can overwhelmingly overcome his opponent with a combo of all the tools at his disposal (build order choice, tactics, micro/macro execution). So I agree with the #2 ranking, but I don't see any need to defend the ranking as though his pair of 3-0's can be diminished by any number of rationalizations. Bisu straight up put out and got the rank he deserves. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
Iris above NaDa is okey but midas above NaDa's just .. seriously.. Its Midas own fault if he takes the hardest opponent. He barely had to play games after he lost vs savior and so he couldnt even show anything great. But if he doesnt keep on playing because he got kicked out of the tourney this is a clear sign of being NOT SO POWERFUL. NaDa made it to the final and lost there for the first time... That is quite powerful, isnt it ? And judging a ranking by playing style and how clear the wins were, come on wtf.. I just remember the stupid comments about anytime being better than NaDa in the OSL Final and about Casy playing better than NaDa in the semi finals. Thats blind bias and hatred towards NaDa. You just can justify to give a player more credits for a game who he lost vs the guy than the one who actually won. Now i dont exactly know how much thats the case with the power ranking, but thats not the entire point. It just makes no sense to rank someone depending on how much you like his game style , how you liked his strats or special movements. Thats totally unimportant. Its about if the guy wins or loses. Simple as that. If you win all the time you are powerful and it doesnt matter how you win. If you lose all the time you are not powerful and no one cares if you lost all your games in a close battle.. Winning many games and losing one or two games horribly is better than making a few cool moves winning some games but losing the most of your parties.. All in all this has no directly something to do with the NaDa above Midas case ( or vice versa ), but after i heard, that this was a absolute CURRENT power ranking, meaning it checks the power of the pros for a very short period of time; for like a month or something i dont see how midas can be above NaDa.. That is not bias, that is just a wrong decision. Iris above NaDa is bias, but thats okey, cause its all bias, but midas above nada makes no sense for me.. I would even put casy above midas.. but whatever.. except nada being a bit to low for what he achieved and midas being far too high for what he did ( again choosing savior is his very own fault ) the list is quite good imho | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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Beamo
France1279 Posts
On March 06 2007 03:38 MaGic~PhiL wrote: Winning many games and losing one or two games horribly is better than making a few cool moves winning some games but losing the most of your parties.. This is where you are wrong. PR does take in consideration how the players won or lost, vs who and on what maps. If you are only fetching statistic ranking you already have the Kespa Ranking. You may not find this objective and it is true it does bring a bit of bias but this is how this ranking works. This is also why contestations are welcomed if they are well backed-up and why this list is open to debate. You can't debate a list build on statistics | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
 Btw, a good list actually (appropriate write-up too, I like that), altho I'm sure you know what my problem with it is, but that has been so ever since the very first issue, so I'm kinda used to it by now. -Mynock | ||
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rgfdxm
United States239 Posts
On March 06 2007 03:38 MaGic~PhiL wrote: And judging a ranking by playing style and how clear the wins were, come on wtf.. [...] It just makes no sense to rank someone depending on how much you like his game style , how you liked his strats or special movements. Thats totally unimportant. Its about if the guy wins or loses. Phil, I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of the Power Rank. We already have a system for ranking players that looks at nothing subjective and counts a win as a win and a loss as a loss. That's the KeSPA rankings. KeSPA is a totally objective, mechanical, point-based system that tells us unarguably who's been winning and who's been losing lately. If that was all we wanted, there would be no Power Rank, Sure, there are quibbles over weighting events and length of the time period counted, but even if you had several different KeSPA rankings that dealt with different windows of time and changed it so different events aren't weighted differently, there would still be a reason to create something like the Power Rank. While the KeSPA ranking does what it was designed to do perfectly well, given the nature of BW and the system used for competitive progaming, a simple tally of wins and losses ignores a lot of information. As the simplest example, imagine that Iris played against Savior in the semifinals but got crushed 3-0. Outplayed from start to finish every single game, never stood a chance. To the KeSPA ranking, this is no different from the result that actually occurred. But anyone would say that affects their perception of how good Iris is at TvZ. Iris's performance in that semi-final was eye-opening to a lot of people, and for good reason. Iris showed definitively that he's not a one-trick TvT pony. How close a game or series is DOES matter in evaluating a player's skill. A second factor that KeSPA ignores is one introduced by the structure of progaming: not everyone plays against everyone else. If all events were played round robin then we could do direct comparisons between players. Since instead we have the much smaller bracket system, luck of the draw will play a part in your simple win/loss tally. Yarnc played against a slumping oov and 2-0ed his way into the OSL Ro8. What if his opponent had been Midas instead? Or Savior? While we can't say what might have been, we can certainly try to take into account when someone wins against an easy opponent or loses to someone they should have beaten (Anytime vs DarkElf, anyone?). Having to play against strong players could make you exit an event earlier than someone else who had weaker opponents, despite the fact that you are the better player. #3 source of information loss in the KeSPA ranking: matchups. This is closely tied to the second that I described above. The source is partially the same: the fact that which opponents you draw affects your record. But to throw in another monkey wrench, BW is a game of three races and nine matchups. How do you decide whether a player of one race is better than a player of another? For that matter, what about people who are good in some matchups but weak in others? Light[alive] is monstrous (or at least was in 2006) TvP and TvZ, but a pushover TvT. Yellow[ArnC] is a fearsome ZvTer, but his ZvP and ZvZ are suspect. Who's better? Yarnc killed some terrans, and that was all he needed to make it to the OSL Ro8. Light also had to play against a bunch of terrans. Sucks to be him. All this information about matchups and opponents drawn is lost when converting a player's hours of gaming into a yes-no tally system. #4: Maps. Yes, there is imbalance in maps. Maybe you think it's exaggerated, maybe you think a bunch of armchair generals such as us can't properly evaluate the imbalance, but you must admit that at least SOME imbalance must exist. KeSPA has to ignore whether a loss was a close game on a tough map. We do not. Why throw out such information? So, to summarize. KeSPA is useful and good. It has its problems. In order to achieve objectivity, it reduces a complex game of strategy, speed, timing, and psychology into a tally. In the process of this conversion, much information is lost, and the Power Rank is an attempt to create a parallel (NOTE: NOT REPLACEMENT) ranking system that encompasses those aspects of the game that we know matter but that we can't quantify. Simply because we can't quantify these factors in no way means they should be ignored. Everything I have said in this post is a fact. Unarguable. There is a reason for the Power Rank to exist, a vacuum in the available ranking information. You can disagree with DJEtterStyle's individual choices or reasoning, but to argue with why the Power Rank exists simply shows that you are missing the point. Just to make that crystal clear, the point of the Power Rank is to take into account all the unquantifiable, and therefore subjective, details of this game that KeSPA must ignore. Read that again. It's not possible for the Power Rank to be objective. This is ON PURPOSE. Saying that the rankings are biased or subjective is pointless. In order to disagree, it is necessary to post your own (subjective!) ranking, and defend it. | ||
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~chut~
France1317 Posts
I see the PR as a way to determine who would be a favourite in liquibet. Imo, if you take out all fanboys voting with their heart, in any Nada vs X or Midas vs X bet, you should get more vote for Midas than for Nada, cause Midas is just playing better at the moment. Yes, he didn't achieve a lot in osl because of his stupid choice, but he was the second big favourite behind Savior to win it all. Stop it with the controversy | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Honestly, mucho mucho gratitude. You are one sensible cutie pie. If you guys disagree, then write your own list with justifications. This is etter's and his will be the OP but just because he is OP doesn't mean you can't justify your own PR. | ||
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~chut~
France1317 Posts
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Locke.
Israel562 Posts
Good list though I don't think Midas should be higher than Nada considering their achievments this month.. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
regarding #3-5, iris destroyed casy and barely lost to savior. nada barely beat casy and was absolutely raped by savior. the midas/nada 4-5 slot is the only controversial one. imo its close between nada and midas given the goals of the power rank (for the 1000th time, its NOT KeSPA) so all the people are essentially going nuts over the difference between #4 and #5, which isn't a monumental difference. chill. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
Guess nobody can complain about Iris being higher than emoboy now anyway hahaha | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
why is NaDa always getting the weaker spot ? Etter is always like '' ok, we got a close one here, but i put this and this guy closely above NaDa''. Then if some people ask why and complain that NaDa should be higher he is like '' well guys dont be angry it are only two or even one rank difference, could almost be the other way around, it was very close'' Anyway, you guys always say we should justify our ''own'' ranking, ok once again i'll explain why i think midas does not deserve to be above NaDa : 1) NaDa got 2nd in OSL midas didnt make it far at all . And NO, you cant defend this with midas losing to the winner of the tourney, because its midas own fault choosing him as an opponent. 2) Midas didnt play much better than NaDa in his games, he didnt win anything, NaDa got 2nd OSL again a few weeks ago.. 3) NaDa didnt play well vs savior, he played not as good as he could have. So did Savior himself vs Bisu. So what ? Dont always compare a player to savior and then judge him by that.. Seriously.. whould you rank savior above nada , if NaDa is 40:5 and lost 5 times to savior and savior is 35:10 and lost 10 times to someone else ? Sometimes it seems to me, you look at savior vs X games and then make your decision.. btw midas today lost vs a as always strong tvt player called Iris, which should give iris a even safer place and should FINALLY move midas down in his ranking.. at least behind midas and casy.. i know myself you didnt include this in your ranking ( how could you've...) | ||
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~chut~
France1317 Posts
How can you say Midas choosing Savior should be a reason to put him down in a power ranking... | ||
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Mynock
4492 Posts
On March 06 2007 08:05 Hot_Bid wrote: #1 and #2 are pretty much indisputable, theres a small but unconvincing argument that bisu should be #1, but savior #1 is better regarding #3-5, iris destroyed casy and barely lost to savior. nada barely beat casy and was absolutely raped by savior. the midas/nada 4-5 slot is the only controversial one. imo its close between nada and midas given the goals of the power rank (for the 1000th time, its NOT KeSPA) so all the people are essentially going nuts over the difference between #4 and #5, which isn't a monumental difference. chill. I naturally disagree. If anybody tries making a point out of "Iris destroying Casy" we have to stop right there. Are you honestly implying that Casy was fighting equally strongly for the #3 spot as for his entry into the Finals? Surely not. There was not a shred of a doubt in me that Iris, to whom the #3 spot really meant something (his highest achievement so far) would trample over a lackluster Casy who having a badge himself already wants nothing but a final win. It's just common sense. As to how the Finals turned out - NaDa was sticking to his strategy (which is horrendously difficult to play against SaviOr) while SaviOr himself did the same thing in the MSL finals and we know the rest of that story... So I disagree completely with this whole "looking strong" thing - it's only the result that counts. That is because no matter what you read into the games themselves it's all your own speculations, and those can be pretty broken off from reality at times. That is because you do not know what the players themselves are actually thinking and why they're playing the way they are. This became profoundly apparent to me after these recent finals, so I'm inclined to revise the whole process of theorycrafting that I have considered obvious until now. I will explain this sometimes later, but right now I have to say that the main merit in deciding a players "hotness" should be his ability to achieve his goals. That is to say there is a degree of importance for each separate game(!), not necessarily a match even, that is the main factor of motivation of achievements for a participant of the bout. And here we have NaDa who went 2nd after winning his previous OSL, SaviOr who won an OSL and went second this MSL, and Bisu winning the MSL. The top 3 is between the three of them, and no one else. You can dislike NaDa as much as you want, you can predict him as dim a fate as you'd like him to have, the fact remains - he gets the job done. He pulls through. (And although this is besides the point, that makes him a goddamn blessing to his fans because he's amazing to root for.) And he will again. Like it or not. And just a reminder, wasn't Midas supposed to perform extraordinarily good having only 1 league to attend to? If anything, that's a big drawback on his performance if we're going to consider these things at all. So there are the reasons you wanted, and then here's my top5: sAviOr, Bisu, NaDa, Iris, Midas The balance between these 5 is quite delicate. -Mynock | ||
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Mynock
4492 Posts
He plays for himself and not for you. -Mynock | ||
jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
Who's wushu is better? You can't really order which wushu is the best because some wushus win against some and lose against different wushus. But what I think DJEtter does a good job of doing when ordering the wushus is he tries to tell us who's wushu is HOT, not necessarily the best wushu. So just because NaDa is number five does not mean his wushu is number five in the world, it might be number one, but the fact of the matter is is that his wushu is not as hot as some others. + Show Spoiler + Though I do agree NaDa's wushu should be a bit higher. =P | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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