I do not suffer from depression but know several people close you have/do. I, too, have felt the "weight" of the world, felt like nothing was worth doing (why go to work, it's a waste of my life, I could be doing so much more for the world, etc.).
Many people do not agree or believe in what motivates me, but my faith has given me many reasons to live. I live to give God the glory, in everything that I do. He has a purpose for my life, and knowing that there is something much greater on the other side is very calming.
I have forgotten this many times along the way, more times than I care to admit. And there will always be doubts with us. As a BSc, I have heard and thought my fair share. Sometimes it is good to ask these types of questions, but I think we can end up over-analyzing them. I would suggest that once in awhile, we stop and smell the roses, instead of trying to figure out the ins and outs of everything. I know it has helped me out along the way when it has been hard to keep going.
sometimes when you grow smarter, your heart grows harder.
P.S. Nony, you are one of my favourite players, and wish you the best.
On October 12 2012 10:37 DigiGnar wrote: The point of life is to pass on your genes. Women have orgasms to motivate them to have sex. The orgasm itself helps the guy orgasm, and after he does, the orgasm acts as a vacuum for the sperm, sucking it up to the eggs. Everything in nature is designed to survive/kill and pass on the genes.
Do you have kids, NonY? If not, I think you would see a lot of reasons for living. Not for yourself, but for your genes that you passed on.
No, this is a reason for having a reproductive system. Plenty of animals are born which are incapable of reproduction and they more often than not make up the numbers of a herd.
We are the sum of a series of chemical reactions, but that does not mean that this is our defining purpose for being. Life locally decreases entropy - that is, I think, its ultimate reason for being.
What is the reason? How are these animals born if they themselves can't reproduce? Unless you mean a sterile animal, then that's called a defect.
I have never facepalmed so hard. What do you even mean by "no"?
On October 12 2012 10:37 DigiGnar wrote: The point of life is to pass on your genes. Women have orgasms to motivate them to have sex. The orgasm itself helps the guy orgasm, and after he does, the orgasm acts as a vacuum for the sperm, sucking it up to the eggs. Everything in nature is designed to survive/kill and pass on the genes.
Do you have kids, NonY? If not, I think you would see a lot of reasons for living. Not for yourself, but for your genes that you passed on.
No, this is a reason for having a reproductive system. Plenty of animals are born which are incapable of reproduction and they more often than not make up the numbers of a herd.
We are the sum of a series of chemical reactions, but that does not mean that this is our defining purpose for being. Life locally decreases entropy - that is, I think, its ultimate reason for being.
What is the reason? How are these animals born if they themselves can't reproduce? Unless you mean a sterile animal, then that's called a defect.
I have never facepalmed so hard. What do you even mean by "no"?
The fact that reproduction is encouraged by the natural state of things doesn't mean it's the point of life. There is no objective 'point of life' that you can derive directly from reality. That's what Nony was saying in his first paragraph.
So let's say that I'm not particularly happy on a day to day basis because my job is a boring waste of time and I feel I should be doing more productive.
Let's also say that the argument that life is what you make of it and you instil your own meaning/routes to emotional fulfilment on the blank canvas that life is, appeals to me.
What concerns me about that is, it sounds like a very good excuse to settle with what you have and not to strive towards any kind of "goal" (OK, maybe self fulfilment is the goal but if you can create the criteria for your own fulfilment then again, what's the point in actually doing anything other than a bit of perspective adjustment).
I'm constantly deciding I'm going to do something useful with my time, learn a language, get a new qualification so I can do something slightly less dull, never followed through in the 25 years I've been knocking around so far though.
I'm not depressed , I enjoy spending time with friends etc etc., but some of the discussion around "emotional deadness" and a general feeling of the presence of an intangible "something more" struck a chord.
Nice thread by the way.
Edit: I'm aware I'm (at least attempting) to apply logic to it, still, and maybe that's the problem but it's hard to escape from!
Hey man, I hope you get through this. I've been in depression before, and I can understand the experience you're going through at the moment. But it does get better, and as bleak and dark as the future might look now, it will get better. If you know the way you're thinking is not 100% true right now and is the effect of the depression, try thinking in an irrational way about the depression itself. I know it sounds weird, but it sometimes work.
On October 12 2012 10:37 DigiGnar wrote: The point of life is to pass on your genes. Women have orgasms to motivate them to have sex. The orgasm itself helps the guy orgasm, and after he does, the orgasm acts as a vacuum for the sperm, sucking it up to the eggs. Everything in nature is designed to survive/kill and pass on the genes.
Do you have kids, NonY? If not, I think you would see a lot of reasons for living. Not for yourself, but for your genes that you passed on.
No, this is a reason for having a reproductive system. Plenty of animals are born which are incapable of reproduction and they more often than not make up the numbers of a herd.
We are the sum of a series of chemical reactions, but that does not mean that this is our defining purpose for being. Life locally decreases entropy - that is, I think, its ultimate reason for being.
What is the reason? How are these animals born if they themselves can't reproduce? Unless you mean a sterile animal, then that's called a defect.
I have never facepalmed so hard. What do you even mean by "no"?
The fact that reproduction is encouraged by the natural state of things doesn't mean it's the point of life. There is no objective 'point of life' that you can derive directly from reality. That's what Nony was saying in his first paragraph.
If you have a kid, would you not protect them? Would that not give you a point to live? Does NonY only speak facts? I'm trying to give a different perspective.
On October 09 2012 13:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: There is no point to life. If you ask someone "why?", over and over, until the only thing left to explain is the common reason for doing anything at all, for living, for being happy, you will be met with irrationality. No one has ever given a good reason. Motivations get reduced to feelings, not reasons. All of our reasoning begins with premises of (1) feeling a will to survive and (2) feeling a desire to be happy. Rational justification for every act begins with "Assuming you want to live and be happy..."
Depression, in my experience, is the diminishment of these feelings. When you do something that should make you happy by all reasonable measures, you aren't happy. When you do something that should make you sad, you don't feel any worse. When you do nothing, you don't feel any different. A lack of those fundamental feelings is to blame.
There is no way to think yourself out of it because the solution is irrational. They are feelings that healthy humans have, nothing more than that. Willpower is your only tool here. You can irrationally will yourself to seek solutions. You can practice clever ways to coax those feelings back into existence. You can take medicine to promote those feelings. In any case those feelings will probably return, as depression is typically episodic, and you can start being happy again by doing what's good and doing what's right and being successful.
But the better you do the harder you'll fall when those feelings subside again and you're given another lesson about how all that "good" shit you did doesn't matter. One night when your happiness is in full swing, it'll just hit you. You wonder why you did any of it. And no matter what you do or think, your happiness is gone. Habits may carry you a while, but all motivation has vanished. You won't feel like pursuing your own happiness, but you'll feel a lot of other shit that's not so pleasant. You'll pretend nothing has changed, but it's just an act. You'll stretch your willpower to cover the void. If it's enough to bridge the gap, then congratulations on being functioning. If not, then welcome to the club.
P.S. I'm not suicidal. Don't worry about that. I've received a lot of messages from sufferers of depression, thanking me and wishing me well. Though I've responded to very few, I do feel a responsibility. And as I've been acting out this week, it worries me that someone may view my weakness as an excuse to indulge in their own, perhaps doing more damage to themselves than I'm doing to myself. I've willed myself to behave and focus for long enough to write this to remind you that our feelings are diminished, not gone. Even as I write this, I feel a spark, and I hope this reminder gives you one too.
This is all very true. The only thing that's missing is where that willpower comes from and the sad reality is that, however much you may want to be happy deep down, it depends so much on your environment and factors outside of your control. I.E: Maybe if you have the obvious love of your parents and friends then you are able to bring that out of yourself and the willpower to cope with depression comes easily, but maybe instead the parent your closest to has died and your bullied by your peers, and the willpower you need to 'cover the gap' simply isn't there.
At the end of the day, although I might not be able to do much, I'm coping right now with the thoughts that one day I may be able to help someone else. Though actually making the very large efforts, I find so difficult, and I hate myself utterly for this hypocrisy. Though, I can't say I honestly care that much about my own happiness. I view myself as a broken person, something less than a whole human. Nothing ever feels right, but still im here waiting for the chance to make myself into something greater than what I am inside.
On October 12 2012 10:37 DigiGnar wrote: The point of life is to pass on your genes. Women have orgasms to motivate them to have sex. The orgasm itself helps the guy orgasm, and after he does, the orgasm acts as a vacuum for the sperm, sucking it up to the eggs. Everything in nature is designed to survive/kill and pass on the genes.
Do you have kids, NonY? If not, I think you would see a lot of reasons for living. Not for yourself, but for your genes that you passed on.
No, this is a reason for having a reproductive system. Plenty of animals are born which are incapable of reproduction and they more often than not make up the numbers of a herd.
We are the sum of a series of chemical reactions, but that does not mean that this is our defining purpose for being. Life locally decreases entropy - that is, I think, its ultimate reason for being.
What is the reason? How are these animals born if they themselves can't reproduce? Unless you mean a sterile animal, then that's called a defect.
I have never facepalmed so hard. What do you even mean by "no"?
The fact that reproduction is encouraged by the natural state of things doesn't mean it's the point of life. There is no objective 'point of life' that you can derive directly from reality. That's what Nony was saying in his first paragraph.
If you have a kid, would you not protect them? Would that not give you a point to live? Does NonY only speak facts? I'm trying to give a different perspective.
It might give you a point to life, but it's not the point to life. It's an important distinction. Life has no preference over what you do with your time. In other words, there is no objective point to life.
If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.
a person who I never met in person nor in any likelyhood ever will meet but still feel deeply connected to on account of his frequent posts regarding his innermost self(and ofc me being in a slightly similar situation)
fight his way out of this and conquer his mental illness once and for all and to then move on to whatever brings him happiness, a renewed challenge and fulfillment in life would be incredibly inspiring to me and (I daresay from reading this thread) a lot of other people.
p.s.: apologies to quoted OP if I misread his statement
On October 14 2012 18:27 RockRehab wrote: If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.
We are alive for a purpose.
And what is that purpose?
Here on TL a lot of people feel they have something to say about every freaking discussion, even when then can't relate to the content.
I had Depression for about 2 years. It is apparent that humanity is playing a game. A game that has been played by billions before us, and billions more after we die. This game called life.
Although we know that we will one day die, hell it could be within the next second. We forget this fact. We're intoxicated with this game, like a gamer who forgets to eat and dies playing endless hours of WOW. It doesn't really sink in, that,"hey a midst all this stuff that I think is important, I could die."
Our desires and ambitions keep us heavily indulged in this game for years and years, we forget our own mortality. Because once we die, everything we're, all our goals,educations, accomplishments, expectations, desires, relationships become irrelevant. And whether you die old, or young, the universe doesn't care if you've fulfilled any of these. To the Universe you were just another gear out of the billions of gears out there, and just as easily as it ends you and everything you were, it replaces you with someone with just as many desires and ambitions.
Depression happens when you realize there's no point to any of it. When your lose purpose. When you lose your desires and ambitions. The best example of this, is when a love one dies, and with in you something that once made you whole is ripped out, and a huge gaping whole is left there with nothing to fill it. It was once filled with love, now it's a painful void of emptiness. Sadness, loneliness an inability to feel happy. This can happen if you lose anyone/thing you're heavily attached to.
Depression hurts, a lot. You wake up in the morning and it hurts. You go through your daily routines with your family, it still hurts. Go to work or school, and the pain is still there. You entire day, is filled with nothing but pain. Everything that you do, from interacting with your friends, and family to your job/education is just a duty to get you through the day. Even when you laugh or smile you're in constant agony. You go to sleep, wake up the next day and do it all over again. The definition of hell.
Suicide, becomes the only escape. Because no one wants to be depressed. You develop a self hatred for your own pity full state. You want out but how? If this world has nothing to offer you. You desire nothing, and nothing gives you happiness anymore, why continue to play?
I beat my depression on sheer willpower. When you have depression no one can help you except yourself. This is an internal battle with yourself. You have to change your prospective, your attitude towards life. That means a life time of perception erased into a new out look on life.
But the biggest difference here is that I am theist. I am not an atheist. So I know the purpose of life. I know that if I kill myself I will pay. I know that even if I were to die, I wouldn't cease to be aware. And my suffering would not end but be enhanced for my transgression. There is no freedom in death.
Yes, life is a game, but it's also an opportunity to find true freedom and true happiness. Going through depression gives you the correct perception of what life really is. A struggle hidden within delusions of happiness. Empty pursuits of happiness. Once we achieve what we desired, we came to find that that happiness that was promised isn't there. And so we continue on a new pursuit. Maybe the happiness is in the pursuit itself? For me, my faith was enough.
Surviving depression makes you a much stronger individual than many...trust me. When you lose everything. Which can happen, very easily, your entire life can be swept away by powerful winds and rain. The you that is left, has to be able to stand on his two feet, pick up what's left and continue living.
To live with and after Depression is one the most impressive feat in the world.
@Above: It's not really fair to give me all that depressing bullshit and claim you beat it on willpower to give people hope and then just say "Actually, no it's just 'cause I pretend to believe a bunch of bullshit for no reason whatsoever"
sorry, it seems really aggressive but I'm just annoyed because it stops your post from being helpful to anyone like me, and then that sort of removes the justification for the depressive rhetoric.
There is no point to life. If you ask someone "why?", over and over, until the only thing left to explain is the common reason for doing anything at all, for living, for being happy, you will be met with irrationality. No one has ever given a good reason. Motivations get reduced to feelings, not reasons. All of our reasoning begins with premises of (1) feeling a will to survive and (2) feeling a desire to be happy. Rational justification for every act begins with "Assuming you want to live and be happy..."
I am not sure you read all responses on your blog, but I still want to provide some input, or a different way to look at life, or at least my view on life. I don't suffer from depression, so I will not pretend that I know how good or bad you can feel. I have felt very sad in my life at times, when someone close died, when people around me get very ill, or when people treated me or eachother crappy. But because of these experiences I also spent a lot of time thinking about what the meaning of it all is.
1) If the universe is created by an entity, it does not operate on the same empathic level as we do, or at least does not view us as important enough to care about (like we would crush an ant or a bug without empathy, we are treated similar or worse). It is hard to convince me that a sort of father figure would be watching over us, considering the horrific ways people can suffer. An individual is not the center of anything, because of that I will not place myself at the center. 2) We humans like to place us at the center of things. First the earth was all there was, nothing existed around it, then every planet and sun orbited us, but now we know, we are not the center of anything. Of course location in itself is a childish way to determine worth, but in general humans place themselves at the center of anything, like our importance is determined by being the only thing, the center of attention. It clearly does not work this way, if there is importance then a lot of things can be important at the same time. I may not be the center of anything, or worth more than the person next to me, but this does not mean I am not important at all or that I can't contribute to existence in some way. 3) The big issue when you go down this path is if you don't place yourself or life at the center of things you reach absurdity. Let's take away life from the universe, there is no observation anywhere in the universe. It would just be there, nothing watching it, nothing doing anything in it. It just is. It is just beyond at least my intellect, and I guess beyond human intellect at this point, the universe might as well not exist if there is no one in it doing something with it...That is if you try to find meaning at this point in time, with our current knowledge, you will reach absurdity. 4) Our understanding of the universe is quite a limited representation of everything that could be. I view it as a box of rules. We exist in this box of rules, are limited by it, but I find it easier to believe that this is not the only box than that this is the only box. This universe has come into existence, and we have pretty good knowledge of what it did since it came into existence, but there is also so much we don't know. We are operating on very, very limited information. Trying to reach conclusions on what the universe is, both in space, dimensions, and its limit/limitations is impossible at this point.
So ok, not so coherent maybe, and probably too much text , so
TL DR:
Considering the points above. It is best to stop asking "Why?". You are asking a question that you can't answer, not because there is no answer, but because it is certain you don't have the information available to answer the question. What you can do though is view life with some rational optimism.
You will not be the one to find the answers to life, I will not be the one to find the answers to life, we are a part of importance though, we are a step in the process, a step that needs to be there. After us there will be more people, your children, or their children, etc.. They will know more, they will be a new version of you and me, a better version of you and me, and they will get closer to the answer, or maybe find it. What looks absurd to you might not be absurd, just hard to comprehend for us in the current stage of existence, or even impossible to imagine at this point.
If you want a meaning in life, try to provide your children and their children, or all or any children with the best conditions to get more out of their lives. Try to make the planet a better place to live on, try to add to the ever growing knowledge we have, try to improve anything.
While you know for certain that we don't have the answers now, you don't know for certain we will not have the answers in the future. By not placing yourself in the center, by not making your personal happiness as important you might reach a more fulfilling life.
I hope this does not sound too fluffy, because I mean this in a practical way :/.
On October 09 2012 13:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: There is no point to life. If you ask someone "why?", over and over, until the only thing left to explain is the common reason for doing anything at all, for living, for being happy, you will be met with irrationality. No one has ever given a good reason. Motivations get reduced to feelings, not reasons. All of our reasoning begins with premises of (1) feeling a will to survive and (2) feeling a desire to be happy. Rational justification for every act begins with "Assuming you want to live and be happy..."
Could there even possibly be an answer that fits the inquiry? You might be dealing with something that's unfalsifiable. Your definition of "point" also doesn't allow for feelings or happiness, which is a great mistake in my opinion. Why do you separate rationality from feelings to that extent?
You are going to die anyway, if you think about it this way, there is no point in living. There is no point in being happy, because you are going to die anyway, so all these feelings will disappear, you will never remember this. You live for moment. It's quite depressing, but that's a rational thinking....
On October 23 2012 09:24 YaShock wrote: There is no point in being happy, because you are going to die anyway, so all these feelings will disappear, you will never remember this. You live for moment. It's quite depressing, but that's a rational thinking....
This logic fails, sorry. You operate from the assumption that only permanent things have a "point". I guess there is no point to the sun's existence since it will explode in the distant future.
EPT
